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How did I become a genocidal maniac?


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#226
Fraevar

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drayfish wrote...
What I'm asking is: is the torching of his empire and everything he stands for bit a part of the equation?


To my shame I had to admit that in my case - especially with the EC - it was. But as I thought more about it, I think it's just as much to do with my complete disconnect from the events of that segment, as well as the segment's own complete disconnect from the rest of Mass Effect, that gives me that satisfaction. He represents the complete broken-down nature of the end and the developer's disconnect from what I as a player had experienced throughout this series. So yes, I did want him blown to tiny little cosmic bits, along with his entire premise.

#227
Ultranovae

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Not everyone can be saved, I know you wish you could save them all, because I went with the whole Disney, and everyone lived happily ever after, ending that synthesis offers. But in the end, some Shepard's can't be trusted to be the new catalyst, some Shepard's essence are jot worth imbuing into every being, and some endings will always be hated are loved by their fan base.

Control I love because Shepard has to sacrifice his own integrity and life so more people can live and it remind some of the endings of ghost in the shell a little bit.

#228
Nykara

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Reorte wrote...

Nykara wrote...

It actually kind of is genocide when you have 2 other options that don't involve killing off an entire race (like the Geth) but do achieve the goal in stopping the war with the Reapers.

Only if you accept that at least one of the other choices isn't even worse and even then I'm still not sure if knowing about very bad collateral damage and having much less damaging alternatives but saying "sod it, I'm doing it anyway, so what?" counts as genocide. That example would be a very grim crime but the words "systematic" and "deliberate" say to me that the deaths have to be the main purpose of your action for genocide.

You could say that I'm just mincing words here but IMO that's the core issue. The precise definitions are important otherwise it becomes too easy to apply emotive terms to an argument where they strictly don't fit, which I feel is dishonest.


I totally agree with you and what the others are saying. Without knowing and being in a situation like that how could anyone possibly make such a decision really? The answer would be not very well and you would probably take the option that seemed the most likely to suceed ( to me that would be wiping them off the face fo the galaxy ). The other options to me, seem questionable at best, I would feel justified in choosing to risk wiping out the geth to kill the reapers and save everyone else. I can also see how someone may take the other options IF they truely believed those options had no hidden agenda's. For me, far too many IF's. Just kill them all I say.

Of course I would probably take my chances with an all out war ( I dont believe REFUSE is the mission fail it is made out to be, a lot more variables depending on what you consider to be a 'victory' in the long run ). I simply do not trust the catalyst one little bit. I don't trust it to wipe out ALL of the reapers at all, although I do trust that it would kill all of the geth. I sure as hell don't think forcing synthasis on people is the way to go. I don't believe control would work either - seems to me anyone who tried anything like that became indoctrinated themselves. Why would I trust the brat's word for the fact that Shepard was different and could control them? Short answer. I don't.

I trust Shep, her crew and those fighting for survival that in the long run they could just manage to take out the Reapers one by one with skill and unity. It could take years, but the entire war with the Reapers is all about simply managing to survive without being turned in to one of them as a mindless killing machine.

#229
ElSuperGecko

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Eterna5 wrote...
How did I become a genocidal maniac?


You didn't. You made a tough call, possibly the toughest call. But it was a good call. It was the right call.

Garrus: The ruthless calculus of war. Let millions die, so billions can survive.

James: You told me once.. "the right choice ain't always the easy one. If you'd saved them all, would things have worked out better?"

Anderson: You did good. I'm proud of you.

#230
Ultranovae

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Well, no your mission isn't to KILL the reapers.
  Your mission is to stop them.
 I think that in the context of the 3 games you would be justified to mistrust the catalyst. 
 But, and this is a big but that I cannot lie, in the context of how the last dialogue is written and how the EC plays out you're no longer justified to mistrust the catalyst.
Synthesis is interesting. Thrusting everyone into the technological singularity that creates a seeming utopia seems a better alternative then wiping out  a whole species, EDI, and the countless collateral  damage from their destruction (on a side note, collateral damage must be the most henious war euphemism ever).

   It is the seeming utopia that synthesis creates what I think most people actually have a probl with.
it's just really far fetched. Sure, not everyone would like the change, but hey you can always find small groups of very vocal and loud people to hate something anywhere, so not much of a change.
 My only problem is that it's not believable. It really lacks credibility. It's too good to be true.


I think that refuse, control and destroy should be the ones I would take serious.
  



Nykara wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Nykara wrote...

It actually kind of is genocide when you have 2 other options that don't involve killing off an entire race (like the Geth) but do achieve the goal in stopping the war with the Reapers.

Only if you accept that at least one of the other choices isn't even worse and even then I'm still not sure if knowing about very bad collateral damage and having much less damaging alternatives but saying "sod it, I'm doing it anyway, so what?" counts as genocide. That example would be a very grim crime but the words "systematic" and "deliberate" say to me that the deaths have to be the main purpose of your action for genocide.

You could say that I'm just mincing words here but IMO that's the core issue. The precise definitions are important otherwise it becomes too easy to apply emotive terms to an argument where they strictly don't fit, which I feel is dishonest.


I totally agree with you and what the others are saying. Without knowing and being in a situation like that how could anyone possibly make such a decision really? The answer would be not very well and you would probably take the option that seemed the most likely to suceed ( to me that would be wiping them off the face fo the galaxy ). The other options to me, seem questionable at best, I would feel justified in choosing to risk wiping out the geth to kill the reapers and save everyone else. I can also see how someone may take the other options IF they truely believed those options had no hidden agenda's. For me, far too many IF's. Just kill them all I say.

Of course I would probably take my chances with an all out war ( I dont believe REFUSE is the mission fail it is made out to be, a lot more variables depending on what you consider to be a 'victory' in the long run ). I simply do not trust the catalyst one little bit. I don't trust it to wipe out ALL of the reapers at all, although I do trust that it would kill all of the geth. I sure as hell don't think forcing synthasis on people is the way to go. I don't believe control would work either - seems to me anyone who tried anything like that became indoctrinated themselves. Why would I trust the brat's word for the fact that Shepard was different and could control them? Short answer. I don't.

I trust Shep, her crew and those fighting for survival that in the long run they could just manage to take out the Reapers one by one with skill and unity. It could take years, but the entire war with the Reapers is all about simply managing to survive without being turned in to one of them as a mindless killing machine.



#231
GriM_AoD

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KingZayd wrote...

I wouldn't complain, you're picking the best choice.

Posted Image

#232
GimmeDaGun

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Yesterday I killed 101 sweet little bunnies... stew, anyone?

Modifié par GimmeDaGun, 20 novembre 2012 - 10:52 .


#233
res27772

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Yesmar wrote...

Good god you did 8 playthroughs.


LOL - I've managed 3... well, 2 complete playthroughs, the first was the destroy ending - then the second was initially Synthesis, then I reloaded just before the end just look at the Control ending... they all suck equally, even with the ECDLC they suck a little less.  There should have been at least one "survive ending".  But, I think the real reason pple think they suck is because of the blatant lie about decisions affecting the end, and their behind "many" possible endings.

#234
jstme

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By playing ME3 ,apparently.

#235
Nykara

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GimmeDaGun wrote...

Yesterday I killed 101 sweet little bunnies... stew, anyone?


Been playing GW2?

#236
Guest_Fandango_*

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DeinonSlayer wrote...

It felt like justice was achieved for a couple billion people. I don't feel guilty about it, if that's what you mean. The Geth VI didn't exactly give me a choice.

As to what I learned? I'll substitute what I believe. AI shouldn't be outlawed - I recognize them as living, sapient beings, and as such believe they deserve certain protections (ex: no experimentation). That said, like any organic, they should be held to account for their own actions - and the Geth's actions warranted their ultimate fate. In the future, AI should be handled differently, not reflexively quashed as the Council initially dictated.



And what of Destroy for the players who managed to reconcile the differences between Quarian and Geth? Why does the game reward the player for accepting the Catalyst’s racist mantra in perpetrating genocide on a race of sentient machines, without giving full weight to the horrors of that particular choice? I know why! Moreover, why is Mass Effect a trilogy that will only allow for victory by way of ignorance, arbitrary violence and unspeakable moral compromise?

Modifié par Fandango9641, 20 novembre 2012 - 02:32 .


#237
GimmeDaGun

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Nykara wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

Yesterday I killed 101 sweet little bunnies... stew, anyone?


Been playing GW2?



No, I was only on duty for two nights in a row at the clinics after 5 days of sick leave. :D

Never played Gears of War. I'm not interested, and I don't have Xbox. I play on my little work-station: a pc.

#238
Xilizhra

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I picked Destroy once, but I got over it. Now that I appreciate the endings more, Control is my only option.

#239
DeinonSlayer

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Fandango9641 wrote...

And what of Destroy for the players who managed to reconcile the differences between Quarian and Geth? Why does the game reward the player for accepting the Catalyst’s racist mantra in perpetrating genocide on a race of sentient machines, without giving full weight to the horrors of that particular choice? I know why! Moreover, why is Mass Effect a trilogy that will only allow for victory by way of ignorance, arbitrary violence and unspeakable moral compromise?

That, I can't help you with. I picked Control in the one playthrough I have out of three that resulted in peace.

I never said anything about accepting the Catalyst's racist rhetoric. Quite the opposite - I see Destroy as a rejection of it. I reject his premise of inevitable conflict. As I see it, Destroy only targets Reaper tech - meaning that if the Geth are already dead, EDI is the only casualty.

Believe me, I'm not thrilled about her death. But I sacrificed three hostages to stop Balak on X57. This is one more life to put a permanent end to the Reapers.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 20 novembre 2012 - 02:56 .


#240
ElSuperGecko

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Xilizhra wrote...
I picked Destroy once, but I got over it. Now that I appreciate the endings more, Control is my only option.


Me, me, me.  and the best thing about being me...

#241
Xilizhra

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ElSuperGecko wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
I picked Destroy once, but I got over it. Now that I appreciate the endings more, Control is my only option.


Me, me, me.  and the best thing about being me...

What, you'd rather I declare the best choices for all of you?

#242
DirtySHISN0

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redbaron76 wrote...

One question, since when is deliting software a genocide people. Because you all seem to forget that ipmortant fact that geth are nothing but software. So deliting software is not a genocide and there fore deliting geth is not genocide. How evere killing reapers is technicaly genocide.


When something is considered to be alive and conciously self aware, it is generally  considered murder when it is killed.

If your suggesting people are nothing more than the base of their existence then yes, geth are just software to be deleted and humans are just genetic material to be processed.

Have fun with destroy, harbinger.

#243
ElSuperGecko

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Xilizhra wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
I picked Destroy once, but I got over it. Now that I appreciate the endings more, Control is my only option.


Me, me, me.  and the best thing about being me...


What, you'd rather I declare the best choices for all of you?


Well, that's pretty much what you're doing with Control, isn't it?  Posted Image

#244
Silcron

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Xilizhra wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
I picked Destroy once, but I got over it. Now that I appreciate the endings more, Control is my only option.


Me, me, me.  and the best thing about being me...

What, you'd rather I declare the best choices for all of you?


I gotta be with xilizhra on this one. He is stating his experience, and he has a good point. People trying to force their opinions on others is really bad, and he's not doing that. 

I pick destroy, and I have to say on e thing. I regret all those batarians that died in Arrival, I tried to warn them but the relay had to be destroyed; but the geth? For all we know the reaper code that supposedly makes them alive could turn them into sleeper agents. Geth are programs, the original programs, the original geht can be easily rewritten by the quarians, they can even be improved and made more complex. Those batarians can't be brought back. the original geth can. I don't regret making the destroy call to finally free us from the reapers.

#245
Applepie_Svk

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From the other side thanks to dumb step Legion has turned into Heretic...

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 20 novembre 2012 - 03:10 .


#246
ElSuperGecko

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Silcron wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
I picked Destroy once, but I got over it. Now that I appreciate the endings more, Control is my only option.


Me, me, me.  and the best thing about being me...

What, you'd rather I declare the best choices for all of you?


I gotta be with xilizhra on this one. He is stating his experience, and he has a good point. People trying to force their opinions on others is really bad, and he's not doing that. 


I know, I know, I'm just poking a little light-hearted fun.  What with the Control ending being all about "I" and "me". 

Hence the Agent Smith quote.  ;)

#247
Silcron

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ElSuperGecko wrote...

I know, I know, I'm just poking a little light-hearted fun.  What with the Control ending being all about "I" and "me". 

Hence the Agent Smith quote.  ;)



i noticed with you next post, thought you have a point there. 

And I didn't know of tha t quote, Spain doesn't put subtitles, it puts spanish voice actors and translates. 

the problem can be when people don't get it's a joke, an easy thing on internet. As long as people know I'm up for some fun :D

#248
Guest_Cthulhu42_*

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You know, killing the Collectors was genocide too.

Genocide isn't automatically bad.

#249
ElSuperGecko

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[quote]Silcron wrote...
[quote]ElSuperGecko wrote...
i noticed with you next post, thought you have a point there. 

And I didn't know of that quote, Spain doesn't put subtitles, it puts spanish voice actors and translates. 

the problem can be when people don't get it's a joke, an easy thing on internet. As long as people know I'm up for some fun :D[/quote]

I can't remember which thread I saw it on, but someone pointed out last night that the ShepAI's voiceover in the Control endings (both Paragon and Renegade versions), speaks almost exclusively about "I" and "me".  I found it quite interesting...

#250
Steelcan

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How did this thread get back on topic?