258 réponses à ce sujet

[Yate]

The Crucible doesn't discriminate, the Catalyst does.

[KingZayd]

Nykara wrote...

It actually kind of is genocide when you have 2 other options that don't involve killing off an entire race (like the Geth) but do achieve the goal in stopping the war with the Reapers.

It's not genocide in the case of ME1 where an entire race was destroyed to stop a threat to the rest of the galaxy. You could either let the threat continue and possibly kill far more then the 1 species that was wiped or you wipe that one species before the threat goes any further. They then become unfortunate but necessary casualties of war.

Just because you had reasons for doing it doesn't mean it's not genocide.

[The Spamming Troll]

DominusVita wrote...

I'd say that comes down to personal motivations - you have to ask why you chose Destroy in the first place.

i picked destroy solely based on its title.

i made my choice a LONG time ago. as a matter of fact, however bioware chose to write destroys ending, i was going to take it. if it whiped out the entire galaxy, id still have taken it.

ofcorse, now i just tell everyone i picked refuse and that i just head canoned the most epic conventional victory ending you can imagin and then banged liaras brains out. the end.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 20 novembre 2012 - 12:17 .

[DirtySHISN0]

KingZayd wrote...

Yate wrote...

geth aren't alive

quarians aren't alive

Not in my files they aren't.

[xsdob]

KingZayd wrote...

xsdob wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

xsdob wrote...

I think destroy is a waste of two species, reapers and geth, both of which can survive and leave in peaceful co-existence in the control ending without splicing the universe together.

That and I feel it was shepards destiny to either become the godhero of the universe or manage it while almost dying, so really either choice works for me.

BTW my shepard got out of the rubble and reuinited with my LI because I said so, end of that discussion.

Reapers are a waste of many species. They also have made no attempts to be peaceful at all. There is no issue with killing the Reapers.

The Geth are a different matter.

After the control ending, that's why I used past tense in my sentence structure. Sorry if you don't speak english as a first language, as that's happened before and was very embarassing when I corrected that person, but that statement was meant to state that the reapers after control ending can live in peaceful co-existence with the rest of the galaxy, and that it doens't require fusing everyone's dna to do so.

There is a bit of an issue, which is that the reapers themselves may have been forced into obeying the catalyst, with the expection of a few reapers who may have had a genetic variable that made them more individualistic in reaper form such as harbinger, rather that doing this for their own pleasure or satisfaction.

Had they been indoctrinated, this would be like charging everyone who ends up under leviathans control for what they did while under their influence. If they are more hive mind like in nature, than this would be like trying to kill off an entire county and all it's populace becasue of a single individual, which is not okay. And if they are completly mindless, than this is like destroying all cars, or all guns in the world, becasue of a single individual who used one to commit crimes.

That's my view on it though, but I do see the destroy point of view, and that's why I have it as a cannon ending as well.

The issue is that you don't have any assurances that the Reapers will be peaceful. The ones we've spoken with certainly don't seem to like us Organics. All we have is the one who manipulates the Reapers (who up to now were the most insidious puppet masters we knew of), telling us that unlike that dude downstairs who's now dead and who was being admittedly controlled by him, that we can do it because we're totally not being manipulated.

The way I see it is: We need the Crucible to destroy the Reapers. We have 1 Crucible. Synthesis and Control leave the Reapers (who we can't really trust at this point to be peaceful) around but no Crucible. Meaning that if our trust is misplaced, the galaxy is screwed.

And then there's the issue of giving Shepard who is already pretty much unstoppable, absolute power for eternity. He's a good guy, but I don't think we could trust anyone with that.

Destory has other risk as well, such as the reaper corpses still having the possibility to indoctrination tech inside of them, tech that someone could scavenge and find a way to reverse engineer and use on others.

Another thing to consider is whether the galaxy can survive on it;s own and stay united. Think for a moment, of all the times the galaxy has united and divided, always it's been with the threat of an external enemy, such as the rachni and krogan.

You now have them with no threat, all interplaced in eachothers territory, and who without the reapers or shepards intervention, were shown to be happy with fighting and destorying eachother.

I'd call that a recipe for galactic civil war waiting to happen. Heck, even the fact that the forces of the terminus system have been allowed to enter council space is a cause for alarm, as there is no garuntee they'll want to leave after the war and not annex all the territory they can.

So to me, destory has the chance of galactic strife and civil war, control has the risk of continued cycles or an evil dictatorship, and synthesis has the risk of galactic sterilization and mental tampering.

[DeinonSlayer]

KingZayd wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Is it genocide to shoot the tube if the Destroy wave hits a debris field over Rannoch? EDI is the only non-Reaper death resulting from it.

Killing the Geth beforehand would be genocide.

What can I say? The Geth VI didn't leave me many options.

[ElSuperGecko]

Nykara wrote...
It actually kind of is genocide when you have 2 other options that don't involve killing off an entire race (like the Geth) but do achieve the goal in stopping the war with the Reapers...

Not if you have reasonable doubt that the othwr 2 options will actually work, or reasonable belief that they may in fact be red herrings.

It's like the difference between rolling some canisters of CN-20 into there and nerve gassing the entire nest, bugging out and calling it even or taking off and nuking the entire site from orbit, because it's the only way to be sure.

[Aaleel]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Nykara wrote...
It actually kind of is genocide when you have 2 other options that don't involve killing off an entire race (like the Geth) but do achieve the goal in stopping the war with the Reapers...

Not if you have reasonable doubt that the othwr 2 options will actually work, or reasonable belief that they may in fact be red herrings.

It's like the difference between rolling some canisters of CN-20 into there and nerve gassing the entire nest, bugging out and calling it even or taking off and nuking the entire site from orbit, because it's the only way to be sure.

But you can't make that decision you're just a grunt

[Reorte]

Nykara wrote...

It actually kind of is genocide when you have 2 other options that don't involve killing off an entire race (like the Geth) but do achieve the goal in stopping the war with the Reapers.

Only if you accept that at least one of the other choices isn't even worse and even then I'm still not sure if knowing about very bad collateral damage and having much less damaging alternatives but saying "sod it, I'm doing it anyway, so what?" counts as genocide. That example would be a very grim crime but the words "systematic" and "deliberate" say to me that the deaths have to be the main purpose of your action for genocide.

You could say that I'm just mincing words here but IMO that's the core issue. The precise definitions are important otherwise it becomes too easy to apply emotive terms to an argument where they strictly don't fit, which I feel is dishonest.

[KingZayd]

xsdob wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

xsdob wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

xsdob wrote...

I think destroy is a waste of two species, reapers and geth, both of which can survive and leave in peaceful co-existence in the control ending without splicing the universe together.

That and I feel it was shepards destiny to either become the godhero of the universe or manage it while almost dying, so really either choice works for me.

BTW my shepard got out of the rubble and reuinited with my LI because I said so, end of that discussion.

Reapers are a waste of many species. They also have made no attempts to be peaceful at all. There is no issue with killing the Reapers.

The Geth are a different matter.

After the control ending, that's why I used past tense in my sentence structure. Sorry if you don't speak english as a first language, as that's happened before and was very embarassing when I corrected that person, but that statement was meant to state that the reapers after control ending can live in peaceful co-existence with the rest of the galaxy, and that it doens't require fusing everyone's dna to do so.

There is a bit of an issue, which is that the reapers themselves may have been forced into obeying the catalyst, with the expection of a few reapers who may have had a genetic variable that made them more individualistic in reaper form such as harbinger, rather that doing this for their own pleasure or satisfaction.

Had they been indoctrinated, this would be like charging everyone who ends up under leviathans control for what they did while under their influence. If they are more hive mind like in nature, than this would be like trying to kill off an entire county and all it's populace becasue of a single individual, which is not okay. And if they are completly mindless, than this is like destroying all cars, or all guns in the world, becasue of a single individual who used one to commit crimes.

That's my view on it though, but I do see the destroy point of view, and that's why I have it as a cannon ending as well.

The issue is that you don't have any assurances that the Reapers will be peaceful. The ones we've spoken with certainly don't seem to like us Organics. All we have is the one who manipulates the Reapers (who up to now were the most insidious puppet masters we knew of), telling us that unlike that dude downstairs who's now dead and who was being admittedly controlled by him, that we can do it because we're totally not being manipulated.

The way I see it is: We need the Crucible to destroy the Reapers. We have 1 Crucible. Synthesis and Control leave the Reapers (who we can't really trust at this point to be peaceful) around but no Crucible. Meaning that if our trust is misplaced, the galaxy is screwed.

And then there's the issue of giving Shepard who is already pretty much unstoppable, absolute power for eternity. He's a good guy, but I don't think we could trust anyone with that.

Destory has other risk as well, such as the reaper corpses still having the possibility to indoctrination tech inside of them, tech that someone could scavenge and find a way to reverse engineer and use on others.

Another thing to consider is whether the galaxy can survive on it;s own and stay united. Think for a moment, of all the times the galaxy has united and divided, always it's been with the threat of an external enemy, such as the rachni and krogan.

You now have them with no threat, all interplaced in eachothers territory, and who without the reapers or shepards intervention, were shown to be happy with fighting and destorying eachother.

I'd call that a recipe for galactic civil war waiting to happen. Heck, even the fact that the forces of the terminus system have been allowed to enter council space is a cause for alarm, as there is no garuntee they'll want to leave after the war and not annex all the territory they can.

So to me, destory has the chance of galactic strife and civil war, control has the risk of continued cycles or an evil dictatorship, and synthesis has the risk of galactic sterilization and mental tampering.

Yes there are risks, but risks we can potentially beat without a crucible. And that for me is the crucial point.

Modifié par KingZayd, 20 novembre 2012 - 12:24 .

[Eterna]

BringBackNihlus wrote...

Finn the Jakey wrote...

Your hate has made you powerful.

[DeinonSlayer]

Eterna5 wrote...

BringBackNihlus wrote...

Finn the Jakey wrote...

Your hate has made you powerful.

[The Spamming Troll]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

BringBackNihlus wrote...

Finn the Jakey wrote...

Your hate has made you powerful.

[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]

BEEP-BOOP-BEEP!

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 20 novembre 2012 - 12:29 .

[ElSuperGecko]

Aaleel wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Nykara wrote...
It actually kind of is genocide when you have 2 other options that don't involve killing off an entire race (like the Geth) but do achieve the goal in stopping the war with the Reapers...

Not if you have reasonable doubt that the othwr 2 options will actually work, or reasonable belief that they may in fact be red herrings.

It's like the difference between rolling some canisters of CN-20 into there and nerve gassing the entire nest, bugging out and calling it even or taking off and nuking the entire site from orbit, because it's the only way to be sure.

But you can't make that decision you're just a grunt

The operation is under military jurisdiction and Shepard is next in chain of command. 

[Nerevar-as]

Yate wrote...

Deleting all my files and smashing my monitor doesn't kill my computer. It will still work.

Your files and monitor are self-aware? Wow, we are much more advanced than I thought.

Killing someone is not murder, after all it´s just returning molecules to the earth.

[Eterna]

Great, now they'll lock the thread. lol

Whelp I guess I need a Destroy banner. Can anyone post the pretty blue one?

[DirtySHISN0]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

BringBackNihlus wrote...

Finn the Jakey wrote...

Your hate has made you powerful.

[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]

BEEP-BOOP-BEEP!

.....

[Nerevar-as]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Nykara wrote...
It actually kind of is genocide when you have 2 other options that don't involve killing off an entire race (like the Geth) but do achieve the goal in stopping the war with the Reapers...

Not if you have reasonable doubt that the othwr 2 options will actually work, or reasonable belief that they may in fact be red herrings.

It's like the difference between rolling some canisters of CN-20 into there and nerve gassing the entire nest, bugging out and calling it even or taking off and nuking the entire site from orbit, because it's the only way to be sure.

But you can't make that decision you're just a grunt

The operation is under military jurisdiction and Shepard is next in chain of command. 

Let´s not forget who didn´t want to nuke the site from orbit.

Paul Reiser instead of Starbrat...

[DeinonSlayer]

Last one from me, srsly... :innocent:

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 20 novembre 2012 - 12:36 .

[redbaron76]

One question, since when is deliting software a genocide people. Because you all seem to forget that ipmortant fact that geth are nothing but software. So deliting software is not a genocide and there fore deliting geth is not genocide. How evere killing reapers is technicaly genocide.

[tvman099]

I'm confused. What part of destroying proto-Reaper computer software is genocide?

[Eterna]

redbaron76 wrote...

One question, since when is deliting software a genocide people. Because you all seem to forget that ipmortant fact that geth are nothing but software. So deliting software is not a genocide and there fore deliting geth is not genocide. How evere killing reapers is technicaly genocide.

They've become more than software.