699 réponses à ce sujet

[ImperatorMortis]

spirosz wrote...
Its da auto dialogue that kills ME3 for me.  I can deal with endings. 

Yeah the auto dialogue thing is pretty bad imo.. I mean isn't the point of ME/Bioware RPG's to say what we want? Or atleast a paraphrased version of we want?

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 20 novembre 2012 - 09:20 .

[Zso_Zso]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Oh man, imagine like... Control, but then Synthesis is achieved right afterward! That's like double the goodness! Double the perfection!

Just listen to yourself... You are clearly indoctrinated!!!

Modifié par Zso_Zso, 20 novembre 2012 - 09:37 .

[SpamBot2000]

Persephone wrote...

BOO EFFIN' HOO.

After the MEHEM Mod my sympathy with whoever feels this way has dropped to 0. MEHEM is a forced Disney ending with waifu hugging and everyone's all "THIS is what I wanted! Bioware got so oooooooowned by a modder."

Yeah, all this nonsense about logic, plot holes, deus ex machinas etc. was "corrected" by MEHEM.

Honestly? It's been 8 months. If you're still upset about this.......it's not ME3 that's got a problem. *Shrugs*

(And I hated the original endings)

This would deserve a longer comment, but no time right now. So just this:

The point that made MEHEM the optimal ending for me was not so much what was in it as what wasn't. See if you can figure it out. Of course it doesn't make all the plot holes etc. disappear, how could it? And yet it would be good enough for me and for lots of people at this point. 

As for your Disney phobia, obviously you've only recently decided the Disney channel 'is for kids'. Now it's natural that no one hates childish things like one who has just outgrown them. But you'll get over it.

[Dr_Extrem]

Persephone wrote...

BOO EFFIN' HOO.

After the MEHEM Mod my sympathy with whoever feels this way has dropped to 0. MEHEM is a forced Disney ending with waifu hugging and everyone's all "THIS is what I wanted! Bioware got so oooooooowned by a modder."

Yeah, all this nonsense about logic, plot holes, deus ex machinas etc. was "corrected" by MEHEM.

Honestly? It's been 8 months. If you're still upset about this.......it's not ME3 that's got a problem. *Shrugs*

(And I hated the original endings)

it is not a forced disney ending - nobody forces you to install and play it. you act, like its the new official canon. 

the people who wanted to have an ending like this, were forced to chosse one of the original ones and they did not like it.

on the other hand, there is a need for an ending like this. you dont have to understand that - just accept, that people sometimes need a happy ending. its an old fashioned desire.


my sympathy with intolerant people drops every day - still i am trying not to give in.

[Yate]

Persephone wrote...

BOO EFFIN' HOO.

After the MEHEM Mod my sympathy with whoever feels this way has dropped to 0. MEHEM is a forced Disney ending with waifu hugging and everyone's all "THIS is what I wanted! Bioware got so oooooooowned by a modder."

Yeah, all this nonsense about logic, plot holes, deus ex machinas etc. was "corrected" by MEHEM.

Honestly? It's been 8 months. If you're still upset about this.......it's not ME3 that's got a problem. *Shrugs*

(And I hated the original endings)

THIS, SO MUCH

I never expected a happy ending, I never wanted a happy ending. If I could Paragon persuade my way out of any meaningful sacrifice I would be more angry than I was at the original endings.

[Maxster_]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

BOO EFFIN' HOO.

After the MEHEM Mod my sympathy with whoever feels this way has dropped to 0. MEHEM is a forced Disney ending with waifu hugging and everyone's all "THIS is what I wanted! Bioware got so oooooooowned by a modder."

Yeah, all this nonsense about logic, plot holes, deus ex machinas etc. was "corrected" by MEHEM.

Honestly? It's been 8 months. If you're still upset about this.......it's not ME3 that's got a problem. *Shrugs*

(And I hated the original endings)

This would deserve a longer comment, but no time right now. So just this:

The point that made MEHEM the optimal ending for me was not so much what was in it as what wasn't. See if you can figure it out. Of course it doesn't make all the plot holes etc. disappear, how could it? And yet it would be good enough for me and for lots of people at this point. 

As for your Disney phobia, obviously you've only recently decided the Disney channel 'is for kids'. Now it's natural that no one hates childish things like one who has just outgrown them. But you'll get over it.

Complete removal of Catalyst's crap was good, but, unfortunately, it is all about that mod.
But, of course, no mod could ever fix ME3, it is just impossible, ME3 is broken to the core. And given lack of instruments, source material and mod-unfriendly game, - mod is great.

[SomeKindaEnigma]

It's been 8 months......... there's seriously nothing else to discuss other than the endings, still?  Please go cry about this somewhere else, or simply move on like I have.

p.s. and this is even coming from someone who was critical of them the first month or 2 after release and even donated to the cupcake protest...

Modifié par SomeKindaEnigma, 20 novembre 2012 - 09:28 .

[Nerevar-as]

IT = Insane Theory... That's quite precise

...My favorite ending is Control, but I also think that Synthesis is inevitable. Controlled-Synthesis is the inevitable major step that my Catalyst-Shepard will perform eventually

Oh man, imagine like... Control, but then Synthesis is achieved right afterward! That's like double the goodness! Double the perfection!

Somehow I doubt turning all living beings technoorganic is something inevitable or feasible, barring divine intervention.

Modifié par Nerevar-as, 20 novembre 2012 - 09:29 .

[Persephone]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

BOO EFFIN' HOO.

After the MEHEM Mod my sympathy with whoever feels this way has dropped to 0. MEHEM is a forced Disney ending with waifu hugging and everyone's all "THIS is what I wanted! Bioware got so oooooooowned by a modder."

Yeah, all this nonsense about logic, plot holes, deus ex machinas etc. was "corrected" by MEHEM.

Honestly? It's been 8 months. If you're still upset about this.......it's not ME3 that's got a problem. *Shrugs*

(And I hated the original endings)

This would deserve a longer comment, but no time right now. So just this:

The point that made MEHEM the optimal ending for me was not so much what was in it as what wasn't. See if you can figure it out. Of course it doesn't make all the plot holes etc. disappear, how could it? And yet it would be good enough for me and for lots of people at this point. 

As for your Disney phobia, obviously you've only recently decided the Disney channel 'is for kids'. Now it's natural that no one hates childish things like one who has just outgrown them. But you'll get over it.

So anything, no matter how contrived, is better than the EC endings to you. ANYTHING? Ok.

Oh, I loooooooove Disney to bits. Esp. the classics and I watch them a lot. I simply don't like forced happy endings with waifu hugging as a focus. MEHEM is not badly made. I expected to get tons of feels from it. I got none. It had no impact on me whatsoever.

So assume whatever you like. I have no problem with people craving a happy, sappy ending. Perfectly legit. I simply don't buy the "logic & plot holes is what bothers us, noooooooot that we want a happy ending!" argument anymore. MEHEM is as contrived as the original endings to me, though I applaud the modder's hard work. It simply  made me roll my eyes as much as the original endings did.

[AngryFrozenWater]

The plotholes were just part of the problem. For me the EC didn't end the feeling that it was written by writers who forgot to read the script of anything before it and forgot what ME was about. Time heals all wounds. However ME3's ending does not heal by itself. A bad ending stays bad. No matter how long ago you've played it.

[Persephone]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Persephone wrote...

BOO EFFIN' HOO.

After the MEHEM Mod my sympathy with whoever feels this way has dropped to 0. MEHEM is a forced Disney ending with waifu hugging and everyone's all "THIS is what I wanted! Bioware got so oooooooowned by a modder."

Yeah, all this nonsense about logic, plot holes, deus ex machinas etc. was "corrected" by MEHEM.

Honestly? It's been 8 months. If you're still upset about this.......it's not ME3 that's got a problem. *Shrugs*

(And I hated the original endings)

it is not a forced disney ending - nobody forces you to install and play it. you act, like its the new official canon. 

No, no, you misunderstand. Not forced as in "I am forced to play it" but forced in the way it works out. It makes no sense and the Normandy rescuing Shep from the EXPLODING Citadel makes as much sense as pre EC Catalyst did. To me, anyway.

[Iakus]

Shatterhand1701 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Shatterhand1701 wrote...

I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on your interpretation of my statements thus far, which is fine.  I thought I was fairly clear in my meaning, but then again, everything is always open to interpretation.

And we're DEFINITELY on opposite sides as to the Extended Cut.  I think your interpretation of it would be more appropriate had Bioware done nothing at all.  The attempt may seem half-hearted to you, but it was an attempt rather than the equivalent of a dismissive handwave.

EC does assure us that, yay, we didn't kill the galaxy, which is something.  but it does not address the fundamental weaknesss of the endings, namely:

1) Shepard cannot win on his own terms

2) Related to #1, the thematic shift from "finding your own path" and "strength through cooperation" becomes "coexistence cannot be created, it can only be imposed" as shown by the three "solutions:

a) Completely eliminate one side (Destruction)
Impose peace through force (Control)
c) Forced alteration of everyone to fit the Catalyst's version of "perfection" (Synthesis)
d) Find your own path, die like everyone else (Refuse)

3) The all-but-railroaded death of Shepard, regardless of choice.  Which completely dispels the illusion of choice.

To my mind, the best thing about EC is it provided the raw materials needed for MEHEM to be made.

Well, as often as what I'm about to say is dismissed out of hand, it still should be said:  there was no "'illusion of choice", just the lack of an overwhelmingly favorable choice that allowed survival for all, including Shepard.  I completely agree with the opinion that the choices Shepard was forced to make were horrible and drastic.  But in situations that mean life or death, the solutions proffered often come with hefty price tags.  AND, they can more often than not fly in the face of everything a person believes or has experienced in the past.  The ideas of "find your own path" and "strength through cooperation" were still there right up to the very end, but they were forced to take a step back in favor of a terrible yet necessary sacrifice.  Shepard was faced to select the lesser of three (4, with the EC) necessary evils, all of them involving a significant sacrifice for a perceived "greater good", for lack of a better term.  I'm not going to get into the ethics of those choices and their outcomes, as that debate matches jumping into a bathtub filled with open scissors on life's list of fun things to do.

I did not say "survival of all" I said "survival of Shepard"  By this point in the game, billions have died, including several fan favorites.  But in the end, you can't even save your own protagonist.  That's the galling part.  I know that many people don't mind or even prefer Shepard dies.  But forcing it on everyone is railroading, plain and simple  That's not only death in RPGs, that's the death of RPGS..

As to the choices:  I get the concept of "no perfect ending"  but the choices we were given took it to eleven.  Eventually you come to a point where the choices aren't worth it.  It says something that EC recognized that simply dying to the Reaper onslaught and the death of everyone in a futile last battle was not only a viable, but in some cases preferred outcome to the Catalyst's options.  That's exhibit A right there that Bioware screwed up big time. 

“Sometimes the prize is not worth the costs. The means by which we achieve victory are as important as the victory itself.”

Forcing previous themes to take a back seat to a brand new one with literally minutes to spare is again railroading of the worst sort.  "Forget everything that's happened so far THIS IS THE SUPERBOWL!"  And again "Just die" became a valid option among the choices.  thus demonstrating just how awful and unfun these choiies are to a great many people.

I've checked out the MEHEM, and while I'm definitely wowed and impressed by the effort put forth to create such an ending, I actually found the ending itself lacking.  Crazily enough, I'm not even sure what it was lacking; all I know is that after I witnessed it, I felt surprisingly underwhelmed when I feel I should've been overjoyed.  Go figure.  If it satisfies others, AWESOME, and all due credit to its creators for making it happen.

MEHEM amputates the limb to save the body.  It removes the worst aspects of the ending and replaces it with and admittedly storybook ending.  But one that's still leaps and bounds better than what Bioware provided.  It' s nice to see that in the Shepard, Shepard didn't have to die alone and in pain.  After all Shepard did to help the people of the galaxy, they stood by him when he needed them most.  As Udina might have put it "Shepard has created some goodwill in the galaxy.  Now he cashes in his chips"

Also keep in mind, that ending was created entirely out of resources from the game.  It looks like later versions may end up having some original material.  If that goes well, later iterations will only get better.

[KingZayd]

Yate wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Yate wrote...

LeVaughnX wrote...

LilLino wrote...

It didn't destroy an entire trilogy. I'm sorry OP feels that way.

You also didn't play the trilogy / start at Mass Effect 1 - so you don't count.

This is actually your biggest fallacy. You want everything you assumed about the universe back in ME1 to be true. It's not. The ending doesn't conflict with anything in ME1 or ME2, I've played through the entire saga since EC and it works.

Don't try and control the story. Just relax and enjoy the ride.

Play through the series again.

Maybe then you'll find the conflicts.

What conflicts are you talking about? Because I have yet to find one.

I had to go digging a few months back to find these from an old post I made. These were some of my problems with the Starchild, when looking at ME1. They are from before the EC but I believe they still apply:

1) Why does the Catalyst (of whom the Citadel is part of) need a reaper that it controls to stay behind and tell it when the Harvest is ready [the organic races are on the Citadel (part of the Catalyst)], so that it can send a signal to the Keepers so that they can open the Citadel relay (part of the Catalyst)? 

2) How do the Protheans sneak onto the Citadel (part of the Catalyst) and change it without alerting the Catalyst? When the Citadel receives Sovereign's signal, and the keepers aren't activated, why doesn't it let Sovereign know what's going on? Why hasn't the Catalyst made the other reapers it controls who can enter the Milky Way using FTL drives, do so in all that time?

3) Why does the Citadel (part of the catalyst) have a master control console that organics can use, but that neither the Reapers nor the Starchild can? (remotely or otherwise)?

Modifié par KingZayd, 22 novembre 2012 - 02:37 .

[Persephone]

iakus wrote...

MEHEM amputates the limb to save the body.  It removes the worst aspects of the ending and replaces it with and admittedly storybook ending.  But one that's still leaps and bounds better than what Bioware provided.

And that is where I disagree. To me it's as contrived and broken as the pre EC endings. Even worse due to its simplification of casualities of war, sacrifice and struggle. But yes, I know, that's just me. MEHEM is no improvement whatsoever IMHO.

[Iakus]

Persephone wrote...

No, no, you misunderstand. Not forced as in "I am forced to play it" but forced in the way it works out. It makes no sense and the Normandy rescuing Shep from the EXPLODING Citadel makes as much sense as pre EC Catalyst did. To me, anyway.

As forced as

"We'd rather keep our own form"
"You can't"
?

And FYI, in the mod, the Citadel is charging up for the blast.  It makes as much sense as any story where the hero scrambles to get away from a bomb as the screen counts down to zero.

In addition, low EMS endings still have Shepard die, and no memorial scene plays.
So tell you what:  We'll believe in our space magic, and you believe in yours

[Persephone]

iakus wrote...

Persephone wrote...

No, no, you misunderstand. Not forced as in "I am forced to play it" but forced in the way it works out. It makes no sense and the Normandy rescuing Shep from the EXPLODING Citadel makes as much sense as pre EC Catalyst did. To me, anyway.

As forced as

"We'd rather keep our own form"
"You can't"
?

And FYI, in the mod, the Citadel is charging up for the blast.  It makes as much sense as any story where the hero scrambles to get away from a bomb as the screen counts down to zero.

In addition, low EMS endings still have Shepard die, and no memorial scene plays.
So tell you what:  We'll believe in our space magic, and you believe in yours

Yes, sometimes you can't get what you want. That was not a problem I had with the endings.

Hey, space magic for everyone! If it makes the BSN less of a toxic cesspool, I'm all for it.

[Iakus]

Persephone wrote...

iakus wrote...

MEHEM amputates the limb to save the body.  It removes the worst aspects of the ending and replaces it with and admittedly storybook ending.  But one that's still leaps and bounds better than what Bioware provided.

And that is where I disagree. To me it's as contrived and broken as the pre EC endings. Even worse due to its simplification of casualities of war, sacrifice and struggle. But yes, I know, that's just me. MEHEM is no improvement whatsoever IMHO.

It's fine to disagree.  MEHEM is an option, nothing more.  Personally, if I'm going to have a silly nonsensical ending, I'll take the one where the hero gets the job done and goes home over the one that subverts the very concept of free will.

[Mr.House]

Persephone wrote...

iakus wrote...

MEHEM amputates the limb to save the body.  It removes the worst aspects of the ending and replaces it with and admittedly storybook ending.  But one that's still leaps and bounds better than what Bioware provided.

And that is where I disagree. To me it's as contrived and broken as the pre EC endings. Even worse due to its simplification of casualities of war, sacrifice and struggle. But yes, I know, that's just me. MEHEM is no improvement whatsoever IMHO.

It get's rid of the whole Starbrat section. That right there is a massive improvment. Also the death of Anderson is enough, we don't need a forced EDI+geth death put in there because reasons(I would not be against that if it made sense and did not feel forced, which it is). MEHEM is not perfect, I still prefer my headcanon(whih is in fact bittersweet) but MEHEM is better then what Bioware gave us because of the simple fact that one entire section is gone.

Modifié par Mr.House, 20 novembre 2012 - 09:45 .

[Dr_Extrem]

Persephone wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Persephone wrote...

BOO EFFIN' HOO.

After the MEHEM Mod my sympathy with whoever feels this way has dropped to 0. MEHEM is a forced Disney ending with waifu hugging and everyone's all "THIS is what I wanted! Bioware got so oooooooowned by a modder."

Yeah, all this nonsense about logic, plot holes, deus ex machinas etc. was "corrected" by MEHEM.

Honestly? It's been 8 months. If you're still upset about this.......it's not ME3 that's got a problem. *Shrugs*

(And I hated the original endings)

it is not a forced disney ending - nobody forces you to install and play it. you act, like its the new official canon. 

No, no, you misunderstand. Not forced as in "I am forced to play it" but forced in the way it works out. It makes no sense and the Normandy rescuing Shep from the EXPLODING Citadel makes as much sense as pre EC Catalyst did. To me, anyway.

it is not "forced", because that is what the people who play the mod want. this mod is in its beta stage and a lot of good ideas and talented people are coming together to contribute - we are in fact walking in shepards footsteps.
the cinematics were put together by a guy, who has no experience in video editing and he just had to use, what was there. damn impressive.

to the mod-likers, the original endings provoke only sad and depressing feelings and without this mod, people would be stuck to those negative emotions.

the original endings did not make sense to a lot of people as well.

[Shatterhand1701]

Persephone wrote...

iakus wrote...

MEHEM amputates the limb to save the body.  It removes the worst aspects of the ending and replaces it with and admittedly storybook ending.  But one that's still leaps and bounds better than what Bioware provided.

And that is where I disagree. To me it's as contrived and broken as the pre EC endings. Even worse due to its simplification of casualities of war, sacrifice and struggle. But yes, I know, that's just me. MEHEM is no improvement whatsoever IMHO.

YES!!!  That is exactly it!  I was struggling to figure out what I needed out of the mod and that was it.  At least in the Bioware-based endings, I still felt the impact of a sacrifice that needed to happen in order to achieve a victory, pyrrhic though it may be.  Some may argue, "the death of Admiral Anderson wasn't enough of an emotional impact for you?!?", but to those who do, I say this:  his loss was as tragic as those of Legion, Thane, or Mordin...but they were casualties of war.  I'm talking about a significant event that had to turn the tide, and the MEHEM didn't provide that for me.  Sorry...that's just how I feel.

Modifié par Shatterhand1701, 20 novembre 2012 - 09:47 .

[Chashan]

No, no, you misunderstand. Not forced as in "I am forced to play it" but
forced in the way it works out. It makes no sense and the Normandy
rescuing Shep from the EXPLODING Citadel makes as much sense as pre
EC Catalyst did. To me, anyway.

EC's contrivance of the Normandy picking up squaddies in the middle of the final run is arguably even worse than what was there before, what about the possible and in my opinion far more reasonable approach to tell said squaddies that it is do-or-die not too long before then. Not much that can be done about that - yet - but maybe someone will get around to editing that away right in the game at some point, who knows.

In that sense, Joker and the Normandy-crew doing their darndest to rescue the Commander seems a deal less of a character-assassination than that, to the contrary. So I consider that a welcome fix as well beside getting rid of that creature whose appearance turns 08/15 shoop-da-whoop-cannon to contrived 8/5mil mess.

Is it perfect? No, but then BW seemed incapable/unwilling to go the safe route here. Speaking for myself, this type of fan-work actually made me care about the SP-side of the game again, imagine that.

[Jagri]

iakus wrote...

Persephone wrote...

No, no, you misunderstand. Not forced as in "I am forced to play it" but forced in the way it works out. It makes no sense and the Normandy rescuing Shep from the EXPLODING Citadel makes as much sense as pre EC Catalyst did. To me, anyway.

As forced as

"We'd rather keep our own form"
"You can't"
?

And FYI, in the mod, the Citadel is charging up for the blast.  It makes as much sense as any story where the hero scrambles to get away from a bomb as the screen counts down to zero.

In addition, low EMS endings still have Shepard die, and no memorial scene plays.
So tell you what:  We'll believe in our space magic, and you believe in yours

Never! Space magic can only explain the grim dark perceived realities against a disney ending! The emo matrix ending is a much better justice to this series then that.

Being serious however I expected Mass Effect to keep to a higher and hopeful future with grim elements. Not make a poor attempt at going completely grim and dark. For that I enjoy a bit of Warhammer 40K lore.

[Persephone]

Mr.House wrote...

Persephone wrote...

iakus wrote...

MEHEM amputates the limb to save the body.  It removes the worst aspects of the ending and replaces it with and admittedly storybook ending.  But one that's still leaps and bounds better than what Bioware provided.

And that is where I disagree. To me it's as contrived and broken as the pre EC endings. Even worse due to its simplification of casualities of war, sacrifice and struggle. But yes, I know, that's just me. MEHEM is no improvement whatsoever IMHO.

It get's rid of the hwole Starbrat section. That right there is a massive improvment. Also the death of Anderson is enough, we don't need a forced EDI+geth death put in there because reasons. MEHEM is not perfect, I still prefer my headcanon(whih is in fact bittersweet* but MEHEM is better because of the simple fact that one entire section is gone.

And replaces it with sentimental, contrived........never mind.

The more endings, the merrier!:happy:

[dorktainian]

Primary Coloured Endings........ we have dismissed this claim

[Mr.House]

Persephone wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Persephone wrote...

iakus wrote...

MEHEM amputates the limb to save the body.  It removes the worst aspects of the ending and replaces it with and admittedly storybook ending.  But one that's still leaps and bounds better than what Bioware provided.

And that is where I disagree. To me it's as contrived and broken as the pre EC endings. Even worse due to its simplification of casualities of war, sacrifice and struggle. But yes, I know, that's just me. MEHEM is no improvement whatsoever IMHO.

It get's rid of the hwole Starbrat section. That right there is a massive improvment. Also the death of Anderson is enough, we don't need a forced EDI+geth death put in there because reasons. MEHEM is not perfect, I still prefer my headcanon(whih is in fact bittersweet* but MEHEM is better because of the simple fact that one entire section is gone.

And replaces it with sentimental, contrived........never mind.

The more endings, the merrier!:happy:

My Shepard lost Thane, Mordin, Legion, countless marines during Earth, almost lost Grunt and a bullet from her gun was what killed Anderson, her mentor and father figure. She earned her sentimenral, contrived happiness cliche happy ending with her crew.

I would not mind some more sacerfice mind you, but starbrat gone=instant approval. That scene is a blight on storytelling and deserves to be gone.

Modifié par Mr.House, 20 novembre 2012 - 09:50 .