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I still can't get over how badly the ending destroyed an entire trilogy


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#626
Yate

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Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Yate wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Yate wrote...

Dean_The_Young, I think I love you.

You can't. That's like Draco Malfoy loving Spock. Doesn't many sense.


I don't care. He is the only person I've seen who actually GETS synthesis.

lol Yate with his sweeping generalizations and blanket satements, never gets old. People only understand anything if they don't completely disagreee with you. 

Newsflash, you have no idea what you are talking about.


"People only understand anything if they don't completely disagree with you"

"you have no idea what you are talking about"

Am I the only one who sees the irony? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

#627
Humanoid_Typhoon

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Yate wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Yate wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Yate wrote...

Dean_The_Young, I think I love you.

You can't. That's like Draco Malfoy loving Spock. Doesn't many sense.


I don't care. He is the only person I've seen who actually GETS synthesis.

lol Yate with his sweeping generalizations and blanket satements, never gets old. People only understand anything if they don't completely disagreee with you. 

Newsflash, you have no idea what you are talking about.


"People only understand anything if they don't completely disagree with you"

"you have no idea what you are talking about"

Am I the only one who sees the irony? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

once again, proving what I said is true. What I said applies to you.

Way to take quotes out of context, keep trying one day you might get ahead.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 22 novembre 2012 - 07:47 .


#628
Nightwriter

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Yate wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Yate wrote...

Dean_The_Young, I think I love you.

You can't. That's like Draco Malfoy loving Spock. Doesn't many sense.


I don't care. He is the only person I've seen who actually GETS synthesis.

See I think you are just suffering from an understandable lack of knowledge of Draco Malfoy Theory, also known as Total Jerkface Theory. Let me explain.

The Total Jerkface character exists only to be a Total Jerkface, providing someone for the audience to hate with unrestrained abandon. The writer introduces him as someone so unlikable that any redeeming traits are completely beyond the realm of his purpose and purview; he is one-dimensional, and more importantly, the audience enjoys hating him. That is why Draco Malfoy cannot openly like Lupin, or Flitwick, or Hagrid -- because those are likable characters and Draco Malfoy is not likable. You see how the division of enemies and friendlies is being respected, and Draco is staying neatly in his Total Jerkface role. Similarly, Draco cannot like anything the reader may happen to like, such as The Simpsons, or Sally Field, or Kermit the Frog, or Spock. He is only allowed to like things that fall within the realm of Total Jerkface stuff, such as Rush Limbaugh, or ivory hunting, or road sign vandalism.

What you are doing is defying the physics and logic of Total Jerkface Theory by expressing an appreciation for something the reader (in this case, moi) may also appreciate, and in doing so you are violating the laws of order and the neat division of likable and unlikable persons, thereby confusing the audience (again, moi). One cannot diligently build a character up as a Total Jerkface, and then artlessly give them an appreciation for a single likable thing -- this is frustrating to the audience because it is not enough to transform the character into someone likable, yet still throws a grain of sand into the eye of their happy dislike. An uncomfortable and irritating sensation to say the least. I'm sure you see the error here and we can all put this behind us.

Of course you understand that this theory was created around the time of The Order of the Phoenix or so, before Rowling started trying to make the reader feel pity for Draco, which admittedly is a deviation of the pure dislike she was attempting before. I'm hoping you won't go in this direction however as I would find pity an equally uncomfortable sensation.

#629
Maxster_

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Yate wrote...

And questions like "why didn't the reapers just fly in" have been present since ME1.


No, it wasn´t. Besides the obvious advantages of sucker-punching the goverment, it hinted the voyage wasn´t plausible even for Reapers. Then in the sequels it turned out it was a short stroll (from their POV), yet they waited centuries for Sovereign to open the relay.

As the evil overlord list says:

One of my proof-readers will be a 5 year old kid. Any plot holes s/he detects will be corrected.

In this case, it's not a plot hole.

Going by implications of the relay network, and the Dev's tweats, when the Reapers go with the Citadel Invasion route they more or less have a perfect victory. Minimal, if any, Reaper ships get destroyed because the organic fleets are already and permanently divided. It doesn't matter how many centuries the Reapers wait, to a point, and the results will be the same.

Whereas when the Reapers fight conventional, as they did this time, they do take casualties. Not enough to ruin the war, but more than they would take otherwise.


It's a difference between your evaluation and theirs. You value time efficiency: the Reapers could have conquered us centuries ago and gotten it over with. But why should the Reapers care? They never had to let us grow into a galactic civilization in the first place, if they wanted. The Reapers value Reaper-casualty efficiency: they'll accept risks and losses in the pursuit of other priorities and goals (sending Destroyers to Rannoch/Tuchanka on medium-risk, high-reward missions; conquering Homeworlds for processing, rather than nuking from orbit), but they prefer to avoid them.

For the Reapers flight to be a logic hole, there would need to be a clear, logical reason for them NOT to wait and try the Citadel gambit with Sovereign. While it's true they would have suffered fewer conventional losses in an earlier conventional invasion, if the Saren gambit had worked it would have been even better. Given how many stars had to align just-so for the Sovereign-Saren gambit to fail (had Shepard been half an hour later to any of the objectives outside of plot-flex-timing, the crucial clues would have been destroyed), why shouldn't the Reapers have tried the safer route later?



What relation have success|fail of Sovereign-Saren gambit to a fact that reapers flight being a logic hole? None.
Sovereign-Saren union was thousands of year after reapers main plan failed. They just sat in dark space and waiting for nothing, having no backup plan, and refusing to fly into a galaxy.
It is a plothole, which destroys overarching series plot. ME1 events was possible only because reapers were dumb, even without Catalyst. With Catalyst, it is just retarded clowns show.
So, reapers know that their main plan failed. They for some retarded reason, decided to wait for even less probable plans, which eventually failed one by one, instead of flying into galaxy and fix Citadel.

As for reapers valuing casualties - please. They are so retarded in ME3, they just attacking straight-on, not even attempting to take Citadel, which they could easily took, being unstoppable force.
And being so unstoppable, they never needed Citadel trap. They never needed Citadel relay.

#630
Dean_the_Young

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Nightwriter wrote...

Yate wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Yate wrote...

Dean_The_Young, I think I love you.

You can't. That's like Draco Malfoy loving Spock. Doesn't many sense.


I don't care. He is the only person I've seen who actually GETS synthesis.

See I think you are just suffering from an understandable lack of knowledge of Draco Malfoy Theory, also known as Total Jerkface Theory. Let me explain.

The Total Jerkface character exists only to be a Total Jerkface, providing someone for the audience to hate with unrestrained abandon. The writer introduces him as someone so unlikable that any redeeming traits are completely beyond the realm of his purpose and purview; he is one-dimensional, and more importantly, the audience enjoys hating him. That is why Draco Malfoy cannot openly like Lupin, or Flitwick, or Hagrid -- because those are likable characters and Draco Malfoy is not likable. You see how the division of enemies and friendlies is being respected, and Draco is staying neatly in his Total Jerkface role. Similarly, Draco cannot like anything the reader may happen to like, such as The Simpsons, or Sally Field, or Kermit the Frog, or Spock. He is only allowed to like things that fall within the realm of Total Jerkface stuff, such as Rush Limbaugh, or ivory hunting, or road sign vandalism.

What you are doing is defying the physics and logic of Total Jerkface Theory by expressing an appreciation for something the reader (in this case, moi) may also appreciate, and in doing so you are violating the laws of order and the neat division of likable and unlikable persons, thereby confusing the audience (again, moi). One cannot diligently build a character up as a Total Jerkface, and then artlessly give them an appreciation for a single likable thing -- this is frustrating to the audience because it is not enough to transform the character into someone likable, yet still throws a grain of sand into the eye of their happy dislike. An uncomfortable and irritating sensation to say the least. I'm sure you see the error here and we can all put this behind us.

Of course you understand that this theory was created around the time of The Order of the Phoenix or so, before Rowling started trying to make the reader feel pity for Draco, which admittedly is a deviation of the pure dislike she was attempting before. I'm hoping you won't go in this direction however as I would find pity an equally uncomfortable sensation.

This is a bit surreal, if only because I'm somehow a part of this topic of discussion and aren't sure whether I'm being praised or not.

#631
Dean_the_Young

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Maxster_ wrote...

What relation have success|fail of Sovereign-Saren gambit to a fact that reapers flight being a logic hole? None.

Everything.

Sovereign-Saren union was thousands of year after reapers main plan failed.

Besides that galactic civilization has only existed for round-about two thousand years, there's no confirmed point at which the Reapers tried the Citadel for the first time and realized it wouldn't work. Given the potential implication that the Rachni were influenced by the Leviathans, not the Reapers, and the Prothean sabotage could have been discovered decades, not centuries, before ME1.

They just sat in dark space and waiting for nothing, having no backup plan, and refusing to fly into a galaxy.
It is a plothole, which destroys overarching series plot. ME1 events was possible only because reapers were dumb, even without Catalyst. With Catalyst, it is just retarded clowns show.
So, reapers know that their main plan failed. They for some retarded reason, decided to wait for even less probable plans, which eventually failed one by one, instead of flying into galaxy and fix Citadel.

Except a rational reason has already been offered to you: that by trying the Saren gambit they could still pull off the divide-and-conquer surprise attack, rather than surrendering it by a conventional war.

As for reapers valuing casualties - please. They are so retarded in ME3, they just attacking straight-on, not even attempting to take Citadel, which they could easily took, being unstoppable force.

Except if the Citadel turtles up, at which point they take casualties and have to lay seige for awhile. It's not clear how the Reapers took it when they did, but there's nothing to suggest it was easy or effortless for them, or that they could do it at any point.

And that's without the potential explanation of the Reaper IFFs mitigating the whole relay lockout issue.

And being so unstoppable, they never needed Citadel trap. They never needed Citadel relay.

To win? No. To win with fewer/no casualties? Yes.

#632
Cobretti ftw

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Ticonderoga117 wrote...

It's funny how that happens when the creators go "Nah, to hell with logic, I want my game to deliver THIS message."


LMAO


/thread

#633
Cobretti ftw

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ImperatorMortis wrote...

dasGleamer wrote...

8 months later


Lol. 

Ya know.. I still don't fully understand it. Yeah the original endings were bad, but I really, really don't get how that could somehow "ruin" the rest of the game/the previous games. 

Whats even more hilarious is that that last 5 minutes apparently means that they can't make any more good games or whatever. Like Bioware was supposed to be this all perfect being, but the moment they made one mistake its this huge unforgivable thing. 

I just can't comprehend. 



Lol.. Make a mistake = normal

Make a huge epic mythological mistake is HARDER than make a GOTY.

BIoware managed that.. Incredibly, they toook a masterpiece and wrecked it..

#634
FlamingBoy

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Yate wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

darthoptimus003 wrote...

Massa FX wrote...

Yes a lot of us hated those last 10 min of the game. ... and loved everything else about the trilogy.

Bad ending does not equal bad trilogy, IMO.

So... you know. Be mad. Be sad. And then start a new ME1 game and remember why you loved Mass Effect to begin with.

hard to do when those last min of a riology negate everything that came before

How?


because he didn't get his HAPPY SUNSHINE AND RAINBOWS ending

which nobody at BioWare indicated they were making

but these losers expected it anyway because they are arrogant entitled morons who think BW is their slave.

Your generlizations of people of different opinions to yours are consistent and unfair, on this thread alone you have made many of them
You have also used the buzzwords on the same page of the gamaing media such as "entitled" not to mention several insults, I am sure this is not the image of the "pro-bioware" side you want presented in the world so maybe you should act at least a little civil

#635
chevyguy87

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I felt the same way you did OP. Which is why I took the liberty to rid myself of the mess and sell my copies of the trilogy for a handsome $40 at my local GameStop. Considering I had bought each one of them for $60 originally and factoring in the DLC, I spent over $200. Now to only get $40 out of it showed me that it was not a wise investment on my part.

In all honesty did anyone see that coming? I for one didn't so the day I sold my trilogy, one of the gentlemen at the counter made the observation that I was selling the whole story. He then pointed to three stacks of games on the floor. One stack for ME1 another for ME2 and the last one and tallest (about counter height 3 columns by 4 rows) was for ME3 the astonishing bit was that there was a stack by itself of ME3 Collector's Editions. I asked him about it and he said that other GameStops around the area were dealing with the same thing.

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't the Collector's Editions chime in at almost $100 each? To see the volume of them sitting there was a bit depressing, to think numbers of us spent so much on the series only to get rid of it over the vague and useless ME3 ending debacle. The saddest part of this whole story is.............

I witnessed this back in April long before talks of the Extended Cut even began. If that does not raise a red flag the size of Texas at Bioware HQ, then clearly something is wrong. I for one hope they take their rose colored glasses off and never repeat this shamble. Although did anyone else see Casey Hudson's twitter post regarding if the fans want a sequel or a prequel for ME4? I for one think it is too little too late to start asking the fans for their opinions now.

Modifié par chevyguy87, 23 novembre 2012 - 01:01 .


#636
FanglyFish

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Personally? I feel as though the backlash against damaged the seris way more than the ending could have on its own. I mean; yeah, it sucked, but the brief crappiness is vastly outweighed by the brilliance of the trilogy as a whole. But seeing people demand their money back because they didn't like the ending? Giving it a 0 out of 10 on metacritic because you didn't like the last 20 minutes of a 20-odd hour game? Trying to sue BioWare for false advertising? Continuing to complain about it on the forums after 8 months? I enjoyed poking fun at it as much as anyone, but the massive outpouring of sheer hatred resulting from a video game just left me completely disillusioned with the fandom, to the point that this is my only second post on the forums since I finished ME3.

Modifié par WafflesShark, 23 novembre 2012 - 01:20 .


#637
BSpud

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Yate is doing shtick in order to ironically mock pro-ender arguments, right?

#638
Grub Killer8016

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For me the ME3 ending didn't ruin the whole thing.

#639
drayfish

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Yate wrote...

WAH WAH WAH

I DIDN'T LIKE A PLOT POINT SO THE ENTIRE FRANCHISE SUCKS NOW

BIOWARE SHOULD CAVE TO MY WHIMS

grow the hell up - you lot are disgusting


Yate wrote...

spirosz wrote...

Yate, you do realize you're generalizing when you state that people that dislike the endings, only want a Disney ending, that's not the case, but hey, keep at it.


sort of

there are two kinds of people who don't like the endings

one camp is logical - they think the choices are a rip-off of Deus Ex, the Catalyst is bad storytelling, etc.

these guys are cool, they're entitled to their own opinion, and generally they accept the endings. They don't like them, but they accept them and move on.

The other camp is emotional - full of teenagers who somehow got it into their heads that ME should have a happy ultimate paragon ending, and who are too emotionally distraught to do anything but spew their hatred everywhere.

these guys and girls need to grow up and shut up. They don't listen to reason, they have ridiculous expectations of BioWare, claim to hate the franchise now but still hang around spreading their poison.

If you are still emotionally distraught over the endings, SEEK PSYCHOLOGICAL HELP.

Yeah....

It's the anti-enders who need to cool down...?
 
You sound like your heart is about to explode.


EDIT: Also (and it makes me sad to realise this), I literally have never seen you post anything that was not filled wth hatred and spite.  I thought you were meant to be happy with the ending of the game?  Surely this wallowing in aggression is not good for you?

Modifié par drayfish, 23 novembre 2012 - 01:55 .


#640
FlamingBoy

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WafflesShark wrote...

Personally? I feel as though the backlash against damaged the seris way more than the ending could have on its own. I mean; yeah, it sucked, but the brief crappiness is vastly outweighed by the brilliance of the trilogy as a whole. But seeing people demand their money back because they didn't like the ending? Giving it a 0 out of 10 on metacritic because you didn't like the last 20 minutes of a 20-odd hour game? Trying to sue BioWare for false advertising? Continuing to complain about it on the forums after 8 months? I enjoyed poking fun at it as much as anyone, but the massive outpouring of sheer hatred resulting from a video game just left me completely disillusioned with the fandom, to the point that this is my only second post on the forums since I finished ME3.


All those things you described are a legitamate form of protest and consumer disatisfaction, you may not agree with it but consumers would be weaker with out it. Especially in this the lopsided game industry in the publishers favor

#641
Greed1914

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FlamingBoy wrote...

WafflesShark wrote...

Personally? I feel as though the backlash against damaged the seris way more than the ending could have on its own. I mean; yeah, it sucked, but the brief crappiness is vastly outweighed by the brilliance of the trilogy as a whole. But seeing people demand their money back because they didn't like the ending? Giving it a 0 out of 10 on metacritic because you didn't like the last 20 minutes of a 20-odd hour game? Trying to sue BioWare for false advertising? Continuing to complain about it on the forums after 8 months? I enjoyed poking fun at it as much as anyone, but the massive outpouring of sheer hatred resulting from a video game just left me completely disillusioned with the fandom, to the point that this is my only second post on the forums since I finished ME3.


All those things you described are a legitamate form of protest and consumer disatisfaction, you may not agree with it but consumers would be weaker with out it. Especially in this the lopsided game industry in the publishers favor


Agreed.  This is an industry that uses pre-order bonuses, review embargoes, and all manner of other tactics to get people to buy a game without having informed opinions on which to make their decisions . The ultimate decisions on what to do lie with big corporations that ultimately only seek to make profits for investors.  Sure, I see games as art, but they are also sold as products.  The only real way to get a corporation to acknowledge an issue with its product is to make them feel it in the bottom line.  The backlash certainly did damage, but it's not like there was no reason for it. 

#642
DoomsdayDevice

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Cheer up yall. The ending is fake. It's faaaaaaaake.

There simply is no ending.

The story will continue in some way.

The day that happens, remember that Doomsday called it. :D :P

#643
darkway1

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Greed1914 wrote...

FlamingBoy wrote...

WafflesShark wrote...

Personally? I feel as though the backlash against damaged the seris way more than the ending could have on its own. I mean; yeah, it sucked, but the brief crappiness is vastly outweighed by the brilliance of the trilogy as a whole. But seeing people demand their money back because they didn't like the ending? Giving it a 0 out of 10 on metacritic because you didn't like the last 20 minutes of a 20-odd hour game? Trying to sue BioWare for false advertising? Continuing to complain about it on the forums after 8 months? I enjoyed poking fun at it as much as anyone, but the massive outpouring of sheer hatred resulting from a video game just left me completely disillusioned with the fandom, to the point that this is my only second post on the forums since I finished ME3.


All those things you described are a legitamate form of protest and consumer disatisfaction, you may not agree with it but consumers would be weaker with out it. Especially in this the lopsided game industry in the publishers favor


Agreed.  This is an industry that uses pre-order bonuses, review embargoes, and all manner of other tactics to get people to buy a game without having informed opinions on which to make their decisions . The ultimate decisions on what to do lie with big corporations that ultimately only seek to make profits for investors.  Sure, I see games as art, but they are also sold as products.  The only real way to get a corporation to acknowledge an issue with its product is to make them feel it in the bottom line.  The backlash certainly did damage, but it's not like there was no reason for it. 




Damn straight......I won't support Capcom,haven't bought a Capcom game since Resident Evil 5.....and if Bioware continues in it's ways I won't be supporting them either.Make some thing I want and I will give them my money.....it's really that simple.

#644
Vigilant111

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Dean_the_Young wrote...
A temporary solution is not an actual solution to the Crucible's long-term problem.


Destroy is a valid solution for the Catalyst's problem between the date of AI destruction and the date of AI "rebellion"

Technological singularity is the concept that the entire synthetic menace (and Geth) ties to and revolves around: that as technology grows more advanced, it will advance in ways we can't predict, to the point where it will advance faster than we can match.

This is pretty much the backbone of the synthetic threat theme.


Is this game fact, or is this conjecture? Are you saying singularity is the cause of Geth / Quarian conflict? I thought it was petty racism and Quarian politics. There is no need to be threatened by singularity, at infant stage, the Geth is already capable of wiping out many Quarians and drove their creators away

Synthesis isn't combining organic and synthetics from two species into one: it's giving organics synthetic-level abilities of the physical and synthetics organic-like abilities on the mental.


So the inheritance of organic greed and jealousy solves conflicts? The whole thing is a double edged sword

Do synthetics like EDI and Legion that understood the concept of loyalty and love really need synthesis?

Only of the conflicts born from the innate differences between synthetics and organics: organic inability to match synthetic growth, and synthetic limitations on understanding the organics.


So what? Isn't it still a conflict? A conflict that is so severe that warrants the genocide of one of the interested parties?

I do not agree that the problem stems from synthetic misunderstanding of organics, I think it is quite the opposite, the problem lies with organics' misunderstanding of their own creation, I mean, weren't you curious about Legion and EDI? Didn't you ask them heaps of questions?

On the most fundamental level, a technological singularity is a point at which a technological advancement makes a paradigm shift such that what occurs afterwards can not be predicted beforehand. The advancement of writting to the illiterate, which enabled organized civilizations, or the creation of the internet and microprocessor.


So? Are you saying singularity is happening right now? What of it? Look I don't need you to explain what singularity is, frankly I don't think anyone knows exactly what it is, it is all SPECULATION

A technological singularity could lead to synthesis... maybe, eventually, possibly. But the Reaper's views on inevitably don't actually have to happen.


Oh? I would expect a smart AI coming up with contingent theories of inevitability, yet it doesn't... wouldn't a reasonable being say "There is a strong posibility, but you can reverse it"? Instead it gives you a flat "no". Didn't the Catalyst monitored COUNTLESS cycles? What went wrong?

Bad people don't stop being bad people when they do bad things for agreeable goals. That should have been apparent enough with Cerberus.


What aggreeable goals? Humanity above all? To the best of my ability, I interpret that as the TIM'S most prioritized goal. Now you might retort "No, no no, he wants humanity to survive", but that is just a no-brainer, everyone wants to survive, the agreeability of this goal is redundant

The Reapers are trying to preserve life as they see it by a standard they accept, but no one else has to agree with it. You don't have to agree that the thought-processes in a Reaper are 'alive', and you don't have to agree with that and concede that it justifies killing off everyone else in the galaxy. You don't have to agree that the Cycle is an acceptable solution for the problem of Synthetic Menace, and you don't even have to agree that the Synthetic Menace IS a problem.

Being amoral, or even an anti-hero, doesn't mean you aren't a Bad Person (Thing). We do not have to agree with the Catalyst's perspective of itself, or it's perspective of others.


So? What is the point in disagreeing? Are you not using reaper tech? are you not buying into what the Catalyst says about what Crucible's functions are? Disagreement with the reapers is inconsequential to decision making because all AIs are destroyed, the problem of alleged AI rebellion is solved. The role of reapers has been removed because the problem has been solved, or is it?

If I do not "agree" that synthetics cause menace, then why am I destroying all the AIs and the all the reapers (you know, who are partly synthetic)?

Lastly, this game is a RPG, what good is it to keep disagreeing with your own actions? If ME happens to be a movie, then of course I could disagree with NPC's choices and opinions all I want

In ME1, if you disagree with the council, you can let Destiny Ascension to be destroyed. In ME2, if you disagree with TIM, you can let the Collector base be destroyed. In ME3, if you disagree with the Catalyst, you only destroy the Catalyst and the reapers? No. Maybe refuse? you let the reapers have their way? No way, but what can we do?

Modifié par Vigilant111, 23 novembre 2012 - 06:39 .


#645
Eterna

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This thread is undeniable proof that Bioware no longer reads these unconstructive hate filled forums and are content to let them burn.

Hilarious, but also sad.

#646
sH0tgUn jUliA

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I downloaded the correct ending.

#647
Jadebaby

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DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Cheer up yall. The ending is fake. It's faaaaaaaake.

There simply is no ending.

The story will continue in some way.

The day that happens, remember that Doomsday called it. :D :P


There is no spoon.

#648
FanglyFish

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darkway1 wrote...

Greed1914 wrote...

FlamingBoy wrote...

WafflesShark wrote...

Personally? I feel as though the backlash against damaged the seris way more than the ending could have on its own. I mean; yeah, it sucked, but the brief crappiness is vastly outweighed by the brilliance of the trilogy as a whole. But seeing people demand their money back because they didn't like the ending? Giving it a 0 out of 10 on metacritic because you didn't like the last 20 minutes of a 20-odd hour game? Trying to sue BioWare for false advertising? Continuing to complain about it on the forums after 8 months? I enjoyed poking fun at it as much as anyone, but the massive outpouring of sheer hatred resulting from a video game just left me completely disillusioned with the fandom, to the point that this is my only second post on the forums since I finished ME3.


All those things you described are a legitamate form of protest and consumer disatisfaction, you may not agree with it but consumers would be weaker with out it. Especially in this the lopsided game industry in the publishers favor


Agreed.  This is an industry that uses pre-order bonuses, review embargoes, and all manner of other tactics to get people to buy a game without having informed opinions on which to make their decisions . The ultimate decisions on what to do lie with big corporations that ultimately only seek to make profits for investors.  Sure, I see games as art, but they are also sold as products.  The only real way to get a corporation to acknowledge an issue with its product is to make them feel it in the bottom line.  The backlash certainly did damage, but it's not like there was no reason for it. 




Damn straight......I won't support Capcom,haven't bought a Capcom game since Resident Evil 5.....and if Bioware continues in it's ways I won't be supporting them either.Make some thing I want and I will give them my money.....it's really that simple.



It wasn't really the fan reaction on its own that was disheartening; it was the viciousness behind it. I know that a lot of people were reasonable in their response, but they tended to get drowned out by the legions of screaming bile-throwers with such enlightening arguments as "ME3 SUX BALZ STFU BIOWARE!!!!1!1 >:(". And honestly, this is the only fandom I've been involved in where such a massive number of people all demanded a complete rewrite of part of the story.

Sorry if I seem a bit bitter, but that's just what it felt like from my viewpoint. Feel free to ignore the cynical rambling if you think I'm being biased and unfair, which I probably am.

#649
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
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[quote]Vigilant111 wrote...

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
A temporary solution is not an actual solution to the Crucible's long-term problem.
[/quote]

Destroy is a valid solution for the Catalyst's problem between the date of AI destruction and the date of AI "rebellion"[/quote]Except that's not the Catalyst's actual problem: the Catalyst's problem is of the perceived inevitability of Synthetic-Organic conflict. It is a fundamentally long-term problem requiring a long-term solution (in this case, synthesis which removes fundamental differences that could lead to the lopsided conflict). Temporary measures do not solve the underlying problem.
[quote]
Is this game fact, or is this conjecture?[/quote]Both and neither. The game uses the concept without explicitly naming it as such.
[quote]
Are you saying singularity is the cause of Geth / Quarian conflict? I thought it was petty racism and Quarian politics.[/quote]Singularity isn't the cause of the conflict, but rather the reflection of what it was: the Geth reached a point at which they, the tools of the Quarians, became so advanced they began changing in ways the Quarians could not predict. A function of that was that the Geth had become so advanced that they had already surpassed the Quarians before the Quarians understood that.

[quote]
There is no need to be threatened by singularity, at infant stage, the Geth is already capable of wiping out many Quarians and drove their creators away[/quote]That would be a very, very good reason to be frightened of a synthetic singularity.

[quote]
So the inheritance of organic greed and jealousy solves conflicts? The whole thing is a double edged sword[/quote]Not a fair depiction. Synthetics don't 'inherit organic greed and jealousy', but gain an understanding of how organics think. Understanding of the organics is what can help prevent and resolve conflicts: if the Geth hadn't been so incompetent about understanding organics and communicating willingness for peace the entire Geth-Quarian conflict could have been ended centuries ago.
[quote]
Do synthetics like EDI and Legion that understood the concept of loyalty and love really need synthesis?[/quote]Arguably they need it most of all: EDI is still grappling with understanding organics, hence her questions, and Legion only heralded in the link to peace because the Geth searched for Commander Shepard for entirely separate, self-interested reasons.

Had the Geth had the understanding to realize that organic fear of them could have been resolved by easily available communication, the entire Geth history would have been much different.
[quote]
[quote]Only of the conflicts born from the innate differences between synthetics and organics: organic inability to match synthetic growth, and synthetic limitations on understanding the organics.[/quote]

So what? Isn't it still a conflict? A conflict that is so severe that warrants the genocide of one of the interested parties?[/quote]This makes little sense in regards to the line of conversation you are quoting.
[quote]
I do not agree that the problem stems from synthetic misunderstanding of organics, I think it is quite the opposite, the problem lies with organics' misunderstanding of their own creation, I mean, weren't you curious about Legion and EDI? Didn't you ask them heaps of questions?[/quote]Sure... but understanding them only made them more apparent as the potential threat they could be. EDI is self-admittedly amoral, though this aspect is never played upon much, and the Geth are simultaneously militarily jugernauts while being socially and politically incompetent.

Most organic conflict towards synthetics we see are born from fear: fear founded in the experience of past actions, or from the unmatchable potential.

[quote]
So? Are you saying singularity is happening right now? What of it? Look I don't need you to explain what singularity is, frankly I don't think anyone knows exactly what it is, it is all SPECULATION[/quote]A hostile singularity is the very thing that the Catalyst fears will come about eventually if it doesn't do it's function. Understanding this is extremely important to understanding, and thus judging, the Catalyst.


[quote]
[quote]A technological singularity could lead to synthesis... maybe, eventually, possibly. But the Reaper's views on inevitably don't actually have to happen. [/quote]Oh? I would expect a smart AI coming up with contingent theories of inevitability, yet it doesn't... wouldn't a reasonable being say "There is a strong posibility, but you can reverse it"? Instead it gives you a flat "no". Didn't the Catalyst monitored COUNTLESS cycles? What went wrong?[/quote]Nothing: the Catalyst simply isn't, and never has been, an omniscient being. It isn't perfect, and never has been. It also isn't particularly reasonable, but that should have been obvious once you learned why it turned on its creators.

The Catalyst is effectively poorly programmed, a system that follows the letter of its creation but not the intent. While it can certainly appeal to stastical probability (a hostile synthetic threat is a non-zero probability: given enough repititions, any non-zero probability will eventually occur), that stastical certainty doesn't mean it's actions are therefore justified and acceptable.



[quote]
What aggreeable goals? Humanity above all? To the best of my ability, I interpret that as the TIM'S most prioritized goal. Now you might retort "No, no no, he wants humanity to survive", but that is just a no-brainer, everyone wants to survive, the agreeability of this goal is redundant[/quote]So we're agreed: Cerberus had agreeable goals. Cerberus was still a bad guy group.

[quote]
[quote]The Reapers are trying to preserve life as they see it by a standard they accept, but no one else has to agree with it. You don't have to agree that the thought-processes in a Reaper are 'alive', and you don't have to agree with that and concede that it justifies killing off everyone else in the galaxy. You don't have to agree that the Cycle is an acceptable solution for the problem of Synthetic Menace, and you don't even have to agree that the Synthetic Menace IS a problem.

Being amoral, or even an anti-hero, doesn't mean you aren't a Bad Person (Thing). We do not have to agree with the Catalyst's perspective of itself, or it's perspective of others.
[/quote]

So? What is the point in disagreeing?[/quote]Because I do not agree with the Catalyst's priorities or concerns.
[quote]
Are you not using reaper tech?[/quote]I'm using technologies which are universal regardless of who invented them.
[quote]
are you not buying into what the Catalyst says about what Crucible's functions are? [/quote]Not particularly: with the exception of Synthesis, the Catalyst only confirms and elaborates what we already had reason to believe about the Crucible.
[quote]
Disagreement with the reapers is inconsequential to decision making because all AIs are destroyed, the problem of alleged AI rebellion is solved. The role of reapers has been removed because the problem has been solved, or is it?[/quote]It is only solved in Synthesis.
[quote]
If I do not "agree" that synthetics cause menace, then why am I destroying all the AIs and the all the reapers (you know, who are partly synthetic)?[/quote]...is this a trick question? Or just asking why someone would want to choose Destroy over the other options?

Someone could choose Destroy because they don't trust the Reapers to remain under control/peaceful from the other two options. Destroying all synthetics is fortunate/unfortunate collateral cost associated with the primary goal: stopping the Reapers.

Given that Destroy is the only outcome in which the Reapers are assured to be destroyed and no longer a threat to the rest of the galaxy, that's a pretty siple reason.


[quote]
Lastly, this game is a RPG, what good is it to keep disagreeing with your own actions? If ME happens to be a movie, then of course I could disagree with NPC's choices and opinions all I want[/quote]...we're not disagreeing with out own actions. We're disagreeing with you assigning motives we do not hold to our actions.


[quote]
In ME1, if you disagree with the council, you can let Destiny Ascension to be destroyed. In ME2, if you disagree with TIM, you can let the Collector base be destroyed. In ME3, if you disagree with the Catalyst, you only destroy the Catalyst and the reapers? No.[/quote]Yes. Neither control or destroy resolve the risk of a future hostile synthetic menace that will evolve faster than we can
[quote]
Maybe refuse? you let the reapers have their way? No way, but what can we do?
[/quote]Anything but Synthesis, which is the only one the Catalyst believes is 'right.'

But then, why are you basing your decision off of what the Catalyst believes is right or not in the first place?

#650
Bob Garbage

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I love how there's always people who chime in with "Well I liked the EC ending so you're all stupid lolol!!". Maybe YOU got into Mass Effect in the last year, but those of us who have been playing ME and Bioware games for a decade or more expected more from this company. Yes, there is a lot in ME3 that's good, yes, it's still pretty fun to play, but the characters and story are basically ruined at this point and THAT was why I played Mass Effect. Most of the conversations in ME3 feel contrived and ultimately come off as a gimmick. This game was not made for a gamer like me, it is obvious. I still throw it in now and then, but not like I did with ME1 and 2. The experience is largely dead to me. ME4 has no chance in hell, IMO.