699 réponses à ce sujet

[timj2011]

Why do I even come here anymore?

Oh thats right, it's the only place left on the internet where I can see people discussing Mass Effect...

Damn it all to hell

[The Spamming Troll]

Aiyie wrote...

just went back through and played a new game from ME1 through to ME3... enjoyed it all immensely.

the fact that I knew what was coming at the penultimate finale did nothing to diminish my enjoyment of ME1, ME2 or even the majority of ME3... in fact it made it better.

i wasn't going through the games worrying about what would happen, what kind of effect this decision would have... things were set and i could just enjoy the moment.

fatalism is a wonderful cure-all for all one's woes.

yup, ME3 made me realize i should have been playing as a renegade instead of a paragon this whole time. working to save everyone i could showed no benefits. id rahter have stole more creds, taken better loot, and banged more women.

sorry fist, but im bringing wrex with me to choras den next time. no longer will i wait to put wrex in my sawud allowing fist to live. everyone must die. well either at the start, or when i pick refuse. why wait, right?

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 24 novembre 2012 - 05:36 .

[sg1fan75]

I agree with you OP.

[JBPBRC]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Aiyie wrote...

just went back through and played a new game from ME1 through to ME3... enjoyed it all immensely.

the fact that I knew what was coming at the penultimate finale did nothing to diminish my enjoyment of ME1, ME2 or even the majority of ME3... in fact it made it better.

i wasn't going through the games worrying about what would happen, what kind of effect this decision would have... things were set and i could just enjoy the moment.

fatalism is a wonderful cure-all for all one's woes.

yup, ME3 made me realize i should have been playing as a renegade instead of a paragon this whole time. working to save everyone i could showed no benefits. id rahter have stole more creds, taken better loot, and banged more women.

sorry fist, but im bringing wrex with me to choras den next time. no longer will i wait to put wrex in my sawud allowing fist to live. everyone must die. well either at the start, or when i pick refuse. why wait, right?

This is a glorious philosophy to take. Its one that has served me well. Its also what Maruader Shields would do.

HE FOUGHT FOR US.

[WheatleyHQ]

I still can't believe we are talking about the ending.

This is the BSN though...

[Vigilant111]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

Why not? You have yet to explain how a long-term problem is resolved if it is free to continue occuring. [/quote]

I have done so, I said it was a TEMPORARY solution, like the reaping cycles, it does not have to be a long-term nor even a problem if organics decide not to build anymore AIs

[quote]Who says it's hesitation? Moreover, why would it need to?[/quote]

Because it stops people guessing and making baseless arguments, if it is singularity causing the problem all along, then just say it

[quote]The Quarians tried. The Creators who died defending the Geth. Even Admiral Korris and the peace faction were willing to attempt to make a political statement on Tali in order to send a message to everyone that continued hostility to the Geth.

The only faction that never made any meaningful attempts at communications, with anyone, were the Geth.[/quote]

Who cares? The Geth stops persuing the Quarians didn't they? That's peace enough


[quote]Amazingly enough, that's not what was said. A word of warning: I'm growing short of patience in your strawmen.

As a kindness to you, I'll let you reread and rethink this point. [/quote]

Why retire to name-calling so early?

You argued that synthesis was a best way for synthetics to understand organics and to develop organic mentality, yet all through ME3, I had the impression that EDI was gaining understanding of organics and showing rudimentary organic attributes

[quote]I was referring to the three hundred years in between, but your attempted point is still undermined because there were Quarians who sided with the Geth. [/quote]

The Quarians that sided with the Geth was by no means representatives of overall Quarian attitude towards the Geth, just like the heretics do not represent the Geth

[quote]During the Morning War? Sure, but then a good number did. During the events of ME3, when the Geth have 300 years of xenophobic isolationism and a recent genocidal invasion under their belt? [/quote]

Two words: reaper influence

[quote]By giving synthetics like the Geth the basic insight that communicating with others, even neutral third-parties, can mitigate fears and allow the communication of beliefs and intents. No one knew the Geth were willing for peace because the Geth never reached out and told anyone, quarian or otherwise, until Legion met Commander Shepard. Instead the Geth destroyed anyone who dared draw near (shutting down personal communication attempts from outside), and never made any remark or distinction when a large portion of their number left and invaded a species which had done them no wrong. [/quote]

Rannoch is a home for the Geth just as much as for the Quarians, who cares if the Geth doesn't want to talk to anybody? It is not like they chased after the Quarians relentlessly, the Geth was happy where they are

[quote]Remember how she had to get it from machines trying to kill her? [/quote]

What does this have to do with anything? Tali is still getting the information that her people desperately needed

[quote]Except it wasn't programmed as a killing machine. It was created as a research program with an unlimited mandate.

'Knowing' and 'caring' are two different things. It's fancy, but still fundamentally a computer program: it will attempt to accomplish it's assigned task (to solve the synthetic threat) within the scopes of its restrictions (none). Why the Leviathans want that is irrelevant, as is their actual priorities.

Not really. It's a pretty basic programming design flaw. [/quote]

No, it wasn't. However, it certainly contained programmes of killing protocols, sorry, preserving protocols, or are we going to speculate that the Catalyst learnt all this stuff somewhere

[quote]Because being strong enough to cause mass casualties to thrall races isn't the same as being strong enough to wipe out the Leviathan empire. The early AI revolts were ultimately suppressed, but that doesn't mean they couldn't be damaging enough to seek a solution.[/quote]

I am interested in why exactly didn't these early AIs undergo "singularity", I take it as a sign of having limitations

[quote]Negatory, ghost rider. Unless you intend to turn 'bad' into a category no one but the most one-dimensional of charicatures would fit in, actions and consequences matter as well as ultimate goals. [/quote]

Hence we do not use words like "bad" anymore. we choose words that are more flexible to denote the ever-changing and multi-faceted nature of characters

[quote]Cerberus wasn't a pawn for the Reapers. Until the Illusive Man put himself with Reaper Implants in ME3 and was indoctrinated, Cerberus was never under Reaper control or direction. [/quote]

Sure, but Cerberus did sabotaged things didn't it? and the reapers exploited that

[quote]In Control, unless some acceptable variation of Synthesis is achieved first, eventually the Reapers will be matched in technology. Once technology surpasses the Reapers, the same problem exists: the Reapers are just another obsolescent fleet. [/quote]

Who says the reapers are going to remain stagnant forever?

[quote]Or they can choose to not. The Catalyst didn't figure out the solution either, not until it discovered Synthesis was actually possible. [/quote]

That Catalyst doesn't think so, "that is why my SOLUTION won't work anymore", the Catalyst does not bare any costs for reaping, no one is wiping anyone else out because the reapers did the wiping already. It is the most optimum solution available until the Crucible docked

[quote]Why not?

Now you're arguing on the basis of a presumed authorial intent, however, which I see little reason to entertain as dominating my decision-making process. [/quote]

Umm, because the Catalyst isn't impartial to the problem, it is the very heart of the problem

[quote]Because 'Third Way' options in Bioware games typically have higher/harder requirements. [/quote]

Oh? may I ask you what does the third way usually feature? What does a "third way" usually do?

[quote]There are hundreds of threads and thousands of posts of people explaining why they wouldn't pick Synthesis. If you aren't familiar with any of them, you aren't trying.
[/quote]

Right, peoples' views now counts as facts given in game, I see your point

[Vigilant111]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

In ME1 we learn that the geth are violent and we fight them everywhere. However, if you talk to Tali then you would have known that the quarians tried to exterminate the geth without warning. As it turns out the quarians didn't want to lose their position on the Citadel. And thus they tried to keep the sentient geth hidden by getting rid of them as soon as possible. That backfired into the Morning War going public. It's interesting that the geth did not exterminate the quarians after they won the war. For some reason they did not do it. It would give an unknown outcome at the time, but fact is that the geth at least gave extermination some thought, whereas the quarians did not.

Legion explains that the geth didn't understand the quarians' decision and thus they retreated behind the Perseus Veil for three centuries. In that time they did not attack any organics and instead were researching the behavior of organics to figure out the quarians' motives. They also cleaned up their worlds and treated these much like war memorials. When Shepard asked why, Legion answered that they didn't do that for geth, but for the quarians. Somehow the geth hoped for peace at some point in the future - even after the genocide attempt. Although they cleaned up the quarian worlds, they never occupied these worlds. Instead they lived on space stations and got their resources from asteroids. According to Legion this was more efficient.

The above is rather interesting, because it shows that the geth were not inherently violent. That also becomes obvious when we learn that the violent geth that we did fight were merely a small faction of the geth, called the heretics. It turns out that they followed the reapers and that the reapers gained control over them by changing their logic - using the "Pentium FDIV Bug" Easter Egg. Later Shepard has the option to either kill the heretics or overwrite that synthetic variation of reaper indoctrination.

The geth became fully intelligent when networking in large groups. That meant that not all were sentient when they were in a group that was too small. To solve that the geth were building a large mega-structure to house all geth. The quarians then attacked them when they saw the concentration of geth and admiral Xen developed a weapon. Again the quarians were intending to exterminate the geth. Admiral Koris was the only one who was opposed to the quarian aggression, but was on his own and thus not able to turn the tide. Faced with annihilation and diminished intelligence, the geth turned to the reapers who used that opportunity to gain control over them. The geth wouldn't have done that in any other situation. Legion explained earlier that the reapers offered something similar before, but that they refused, because they thought that it was better to determine their own goals and that following one's own path is just as important as the end result. However, this time they gave in, because they did not desire extermination. When freed by Shepard, the threat of extermination was gone and thus the geth were willing to fight the reapers again. Even when the geth are allowed to upload the reaper code to become individuals peace between the geth and quarians became possible. As a player this possibility feels like genocide when Shepard decides not to allow that: "Do we deserve death?"

So the game first paints the geth as violent and we come to understand that they are not inherently violent. The same goes for the zha'til in Javik's cycle. There too the game paints the zha'til as violent synthetics who turned against their creators, the zha. However, it wasn't that black and white. If you take Javik on the dreadnought mission, he will explain that the zha'til only turned against the zha after the reapers got control over the zha'til. And thus the reapers were responsible for the violence of a synthetic race that had a symbiotic relation with organics before their interference.

The problem of all the above is that, by painting the synthetics as a threat in ME3, it has become an afterthought. It's added on top of lore that tells us otherwise. This violence is a rationalization to try to make the ending and the Catalyst fit. Throwing in terms like "inevitable" don't make it so.

One would think that the Leviathan DLC would pretty much support the Catalyst and its hypothetical synthetics threat, but even there it doesn't add up. The reapers are the only synthetic race in the game who turned against their creators. From their remains the first reaper, Harbinger, was created. No warning and no reason were given. The problem was the violent nature of their creators, who saw themselves as an apex race and any other race were supposed to be thralls who were forced to pay tribute to serve their needs. In a similar fashion the reapers saw themselves as the pinnacle of evolution and any other race plus their evolution were supposed to be tools for whatever goals the Intelligence gave itself. As explained by the leviathans the Intelligence was not pre-programmed to do what it did. Instead it was given the opportunity to study the problem of "tribute does not flow from a dead race" and it dreamed up a solution for it. Given the violent nature of their creators, it should be no surprise that the Intelligence's solution was just as violent. Hence the cyclical genocide solution.

What is pretty much constant is the violent nature of the reapers and their deceitful stratagems like indoctrination, Cerberus' betrayal, turning synthetics against organics, turning dead bodies into husks, turning the protheans' children against the adults, and so on. What the ending fails to do is to have some kind of sympathy for the Intelligence's actions and only when one rationalizes its atrocities one can opt for control or synthesis. There is no or little foreshadowing to the Crucible's options. And when there is, Shepard is strongly against them. Synthesis is remotely foreshadowed by Saren, but the entire ME1 game was dedicated to fight against him. Control is remotely foreshadowed by the Illusive Man, but Shepard fought against him up to minutes before the talk with Catalyst. Both Saren and TIM were killed by Shepard or were killed by suicide. Both were indoctrinated by the reapers, so both propositions are hard to swallow. Nor did they fit in what paragon Shepard believed in. Even renegade Shepard had problems with giving up things like racial diversity and violating the right of self-determination. And synthetic threat? What synthetic threat? The only one we know of are the brat and its boys themselves.

Everything in the game is pre-occupied with the destruction of the reapers. Every alliance Shepard creates is based on it. Even the Crucible itself is thought to be a weapon capable of destroying the reapers. And it is obvious that everyone wants the destruction of the reapers. And players like me who have established peace with the geth and opt for destroy view the entire Rannoch missions as wasted time. After all, I certainly do not want the destruction of the geth after their peace with quarians. And how about curing the genophage and synthesis? Doesn't synthesis have the opportunity to cure it and if so, what was the importance of that scenario, besides gaining allies? Both control and synthesis require co-operation with the reapers who betrayed the synthetics and organics more than a horse has hairs. The war criminal can pose as an innocent child, but that does not make it innocent and trustworthy. That disguise makes the contrary true. There is a billion year history that shows it cannot be trusted. That is what makes the ending detached from the rest of the game. It has nothing to do with it.

I think during ME2, Legion said that the Geth did not persue the Quarians because they could not calculate the outcome of their creators' extermination, I take that as a sign of interest in further investigation

[AngryFrozenWater]

Vigilant111 wrote...

I think during ME2, Legion said that the Geth did not persue the Quarians because they could not calculate the outcome of their creators' extermination, I take that as a sign of interest in further investigation

Most likely. The context pushes it into that direction.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Maxster_ wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Cheer up yall. The ending is fake. It's faaaaaaaake.

There simply is no ending.

The story will continue in some way.

The day that happens, remember that Doomsday called it.

Some people prefer to live in fairytale, i guess

Indeed.
Although the fairytale might not be what you think it is.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 24 novembre 2012 - 09:47 .

[Maxster_]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I would argue, but apparently I lost. According to you I made very different arguments than I recall typing, but your mastery of the english language is more than apparent, and you are a credible expert because you say so.

Ah, Maxter. The last month just wasn't the same without your brand of enthusiasm. Have you ever considered working as a reporter for for RT?

Yeah, yeah, keep talking.
You know, a pile of implausible baseless assumptions is not facts. Especially when you just making up things, and ignoring in-game information.

You haven't even bothered to provide any facts to support your point. Your assertions, completely true, of course, because they are.

[dreaming_raithe]

I feel the same way, OP. I keep wanting to finish up my leftover ME2 playthroughs, but it just feels so meaningless without an ME3 worthy of these various Shepards.

[Thore2k10]

I support the OP.

Played the first and second ME games numerous times and the third one only once.

now i think im never going to install any of the games again...

[o Ventus]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Whats even more hilarious is that that last 5 minutes apparently means that they can't make any more good games or whatever. Like Bioware was supposed to be this all perfect being, but the moment they made one mistake its this huge unforgivable thing. 

I've never quite understood the whole "last 5 minutes" argument. Looking at how ******-poorly DA2 and TOR have been received by the fanbase, I shake my head when people act as if Bioware somehow made a random fluke. It's 3 games in a row that seem to be severely disliked by portions of the community.

[malakim2099]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

...that coexistence is only possible if conformity is imposed from above, or one side will inevitably destroy the other?

Great. Now EA is going to create the Reapers just to harvest all the gamers.

I HOPE YOU ARE HAPPY BECAUSE THIS IS ALL YOUR FAULT NOW. 

*starts designing the Crucible out of his leftover DVD player parts*

[N7 Banshee Bait]

Well, I love the endings & the whole trilogy so while I'm enjoying them you can all suffer & rot.

[KingZayd]

o Ventus wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Whats even more hilarious is that that last 5 minutes apparently means that they can't make any more good games or whatever. Like Bioware was supposed to be this all perfect being, but the moment they made one mistake its this huge unforgivable thing. 

I've never quite understood the whole "last 5 minutes" argument. Looking at how ******-poorly DA2 and TOR have been received by the fanbase, I shake my head when people act as if Bioware somehow made a random fluke. It's 3 games in a row that seem to be severely disliked by portions of the community.

didn't buy DA2 yet, and assumed people were overreacting.. It was Bioware! When did they ever mess up?
didn't buy TOR, as I'm not a fan of MMOs
Now I'm wary of buying DA2.

[Canned Bullets]

I think the Extended Cut did its job except we wouldn't have the endings fiasco if Bioware did something like the extended cut in the first place. It would have been a lot less controversial and the Mass Effect trilogy set itself up for a deus ex machina ending from the start so I don't think a "superweapon" like the Crucible being needed was avoidable because of how god-like the Reapers were portrayed as throughout the trilogy. Mass Effect is a great trilogy but most people will just remember it as that awesome series of games that had a bad ending which needed DLC to fix.

[Iakus]

KingZayd wrote...

didn't buy DA2 yet, and assumed people were overreacting.. It was Bioware! When did they ever mess up?
didn't buy TOR, as I'm not a fan of MMOs
Now I'm wary of buying DA2.

DA2's ending was definitely weak, but the problems with it are nothing compared to ME3's

[Iakus]

Steelgrave wrote...

Well, I love the endings & the whole trilogy so while I'm enjoying them you can all suffer & rot.

I no longer have to suffer, I have MEHEM 

[Archonsg]

iakus wrote...

Steelgrave wrote...

Well, I love the endings & the whole trilogy so while I'm enjoying them you can all suffer & rot.

I no longer have to suffer, I have MEHEM 

True that.

Still, sadly only we, the PC Master Race have access to it. Our poor filthy console comrades are left out in the cold of London, bleeding, broken and most likely asphyxiated from prolonged vacuum exposure (falling out of high orbit does that sort of thing) and can only headcanon away the probability that "last gasp" was indeed Shepards last gasp. 

Getting a hug for coming back to her, for the promised future with Tali > mostly dead corpse on the ground.

Modifié par Archonsg, 26 novembre 2012 - 04:54 .

[Evo_9]

Hmm..

looks like im the only one here that really enjoyed ME3 and its ending.

feel bad for you op, hope you find that game that meets your requirements.

Modifié par Evo_9, 26 novembre 2012 - 05:33 .

[Aiyie]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

I don't get these people who correctly perceive the true awfulness of the endings, but go on to say "10 minutes doesn't spoil the whole fun ride!"

i don't do it much, but in this case, just live in the moment.

its still possible to enjoy the series in the same way its possible to enjoy watching a movie you've already seen.

willing suspension of disbelief.

just because you know how its going to end doesn't have to mean you can't enjoy the moments leading up to the end.

hell, i know im going to die someday, that doesn't mean every day leading up to my death means nothing.

[Jawsomebob]

dasGleamer wrote...

8 months later and i still can't look at any of the games without a feeling of being let down.  destroyed a masterpiece with these shenanigans.

hope it feels good to sell out bioware...i can only hope future sales reflect the disrespect towards fans

I feel the same way. I honestly think we need a support group. 

[malakim2099]

iakus wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

didn't buy DA2 yet, and assumed people were overreacting.. It was Bioware! When did they ever mess up?
didn't buy TOR, as I'm not a fan of MMOs
Now I'm wary of buying DA2.

DA2's ending was definitely weak, but the problems with it are nothing compared to ME3's

Honestly, I didn't mind DA2 that much, as it definitely was meant to be the middle of a trilogy. I mean, it's following the Star Wars-Empire-ROTJ route, so it was going to end as a bit of a tragic/low point, building up for the third game.

Then again, I actually liked DA2 a lot, so I might just be a freak. Who knows.