It's done absolutely nothing positive that I can tell. Unless you count making several guns bad even unusable a good thing.
Why was the stability/kickback mechanic introduced?
Débuté par
Binary_Helix 1
, nov. 20 2012 11:03
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#2
Posté 20 novembre 2012 - 11:25
Drayce333
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Better balance and more variety. Don't like it? Go play narrative mode or lrn2stabilitymods.
Modifié par Drayce333, 20 novembre 2012 - 11:26 .
#3
Posté 20 novembre 2012 - 11:55
Binary_Helix 1
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So no valid answer except "balance" which I assume means "let's screw gun users" as that's the trend throughout ME3.
#4
Posté 20 novembre 2012 - 12:48
RedCaesar97
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The stability/kickback mechanic was always there throughout the Mass Effect series.
Mass Effect 1 had stability mechanics, even weapon mods that improved stability. Although once you had enough accuracy in your gun, you never noticed stability.
Mass Effect 2 had stability, which was most noticeable in SMGs like the Tempest and Shuriken, and the Revenant assault rifle.
I think the biggest problem with stability in Mass Effect 3 is not with stability itself, but how weapon accuracy and stability work together. Guns like the Revenant and Tempest are hit the hardest since--unlike Mass Effect 2--the accuracy stat is applied to all shots which means the first shot is not guaranteed to be accurate. So as you continue to fire the gun, accuracy and stability continue to fight against you which makes it harder to hit anything with extremely inaccurate+unstable weapons.
Yes, you can apply weapon mods to improve accuracy and stability, but keep in mind that:
1) In multiplayer these mods must be purchased through reinforcement packs, which means you may not get them right away.
2) In single player, these mods must be purchased/found, and the SMG mods are only available with the Leviathan DLC.
Another problem I have is with class passives themselves. The weapons-based classes (Soldier, Infiltrator, Vanguard)--or at the very least, the Soldier class only--should have class-native passives and/or powers that improve weapon stability, and possibly accuracy as well. This could have made the Soldier better with assault rifles (its "exclusive" gun in ME1 and ME2) like the Revenant without completely restricting the other classes from using them.
To further explain, the Soldier could have had something like +25% weapon stability in a Combat Mastery evolution, maybe as part of the rank 6 Weapons Master evolution. And maybe Adrenaline Rush could have had another +25% weapon stability perk as part of an evolution or maybe rank 3 or something like that.
NOTE: Marksman provides weapon accuracy and stability bonuses, but I do not like powers providing weapon bonuses such as Accuracy and Damage. To me, accuracy, damage, and stability are weapon stats that help make the different guns unique, but accuracy and damage--to me at least--should not be improved through powers or passives since I see them as native to the weapons themselves; they should only be improved through mods. However, I consider stability to be part weapon stat, part class stat; namely the weapon has some native kickback, but that kickback is partly managed by the wielder: the weapon will always have kickback but the shooter can reduce that kickback. In Shepard's case, that means steadier aim, stronger arms, implants, and so on. That is why I think class powers and passives for the weapons-based classes--for the Soldier at the very least--should include weapon stability bonuses.
Mass Effect 1 had stability mechanics, even weapon mods that improved stability. Although once you had enough accuracy in your gun, you never noticed stability.
Mass Effect 2 had stability, which was most noticeable in SMGs like the Tempest and Shuriken, and the Revenant assault rifle.
I think the biggest problem with stability in Mass Effect 3 is not with stability itself, but how weapon accuracy and stability work together. Guns like the Revenant and Tempest are hit the hardest since--unlike Mass Effect 2--the accuracy stat is applied to all shots which means the first shot is not guaranteed to be accurate. So as you continue to fire the gun, accuracy and stability continue to fight against you which makes it harder to hit anything with extremely inaccurate+unstable weapons.
Yes, you can apply weapon mods to improve accuracy and stability, but keep in mind that:
1) In multiplayer these mods must be purchased through reinforcement packs, which means you may not get them right away.
2) In single player, these mods must be purchased/found, and the SMG mods are only available with the Leviathan DLC.
Another problem I have is with class passives themselves. The weapons-based classes (Soldier, Infiltrator, Vanguard)--or at the very least, the Soldier class only--should have class-native passives and/or powers that improve weapon stability, and possibly accuracy as well. This could have made the Soldier better with assault rifles (its "exclusive" gun in ME1 and ME2) like the Revenant without completely restricting the other classes from using them.
To further explain, the Soldier could have had something like +25% weapon stability in a Combat Mastery evolution, maybe as part of the rank 6 Weapons Master evolution. And maybe Adrenaline Rush could have had another +25% weapon stability perk as part of an evolution or maybe rank 3 or something like that.
NOTE: Marksman provides weapon accuracy and stability bonuses, but I do not like powers providing weapon bonuses such as Accuracy and Damage. To me, accuracy, damage, and stability are weapon stats that help make the different guns unique, but accuracy and damage--to me at least--should not be improved through powers or passives since I see them as native to the weapons themselves; they should only be improved through mods. However, I consider stability to be part weapon stat, part class stat; namely the weapon has some native kickback, but that kickback is partly managed by the wielder: the weapon will always have kickback but the shooter can reduce that kickback. In Shepard's case, that means steadier aim, stronger arms, implants, and so on. That is why I think class powers and passives for the weapons-based classes--for the Soldier at the very least--should include weapon stability bonuses.
#5
Posté 20 novembre 2012 - 01:03
Wulfram
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Having a variety of ways weapons can be distinct from each other is good. Without differing accuracy and recoil, there wouldn't be much point to having more than a couple of SMGs and Assault Rifles
What I don't get is why it's worse out of cover. In cover it's really fairly managable generally, but if not then it's often horrible. But do you really need more of a penalty for being out of cover than the obvious thing of not being able to hide behind it?
I think assault rifles generally recieved the short end of the stick. Mostly because they're now pretty bad against armour.
What I don't get is why it's worse out of cover. In cover it's really fairly managable generally, but if not then it's often horrible. But do you really need more of a penalty for being out of cover than the obvious thing of not being able to hide behind it?
I think assault rifles generally recieved the short end of the stick. Mostly because they're now pretty bad against armour.
#6
Posté 20 novembre 2012 - 07:54
Nightmare137
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Red summed it up really well but I'd also like to add that it adds a sense of realism to the game. Many guns in real life have a lot of kick so why would they throw that kind of logic out the window in a world loosely based on ours? It's really not all that bad but as red stated it's always been here and it isn't that hard to counter.
#7
Posté 20 novembre 2012 - 08:31
Binary_Helix 1
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Stability was another nerf (among many) to the rapid fire guns. Shotguns and pistol dominate in ME3 and no changing that.
Modifié par Binary_Helix 1, 20 novembre 2012 - 08:32 .
#8
Posté 20 novembre 2012 - 08:50
Frostmourne86
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To be truly real, the weapons would have terrible accuracy firing from the hip (un-aimed), while actually aiming would increase accuracy and stability.
#9
Posté 20 novembre 2012 - 09:00
Constipator369
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Um... Anybody could explain what you people mean? When guns fire, there is recoil and it has been there since the first ME.
#10
Posté 20 novembre 2012 - 09:09
Binary_Helix 1
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The very same weapons that were in ME2 don't even play like their ME3 counterparts. Massive kickback is just one reason.
#11
Posté 23 novembre 2012 - 05:18
CDS923
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Binary_Helix 1 wrote...
The very same weapons that were in ME2 don't even play like their ME3 counterparts. Massive kickback is just one reason.
Maybe you played a different version of ME1 and ME2 than everyone else?
#12
Posté 23 novembre 2012 - 10:27
vonSlash
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CDS923 wrote...
Binary_Helix 1 wrote...
The very same weapons that were in ME2 don't even play like their ME3 counterparts. Massive kickback is just one reason.
Maybe you played a different version of ME1 and ME2 than everyone else?
Nope. The Revenant and Tempest behave like entirely different guns between ME2 and ME3. The Tempest doesn't even have the same firing mode between games.
#13
Posté 24 novembre 2012 - 10:12
Nitrocuban
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Recoil isn't that big of a problem and allows weapons like the Hurricane. Very powerfull, light, lots of ammo BUT kicks like an angry donkey.
And well, there are mods to compensate or other weapons to use instead.
And well, there are mods to compensate or other weapons to use instead.
#14
Posté 24 novembre 2012 - 10:42
capn233
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I am not entirely sure what some of you are on about.
In Mass Effect there were indeed stability mods. However, stability in that game was absolutely not what it is in ME3. Mass Effect had accuracy degradation from shooting in an upright position, moving, or firing rapidly. Those all induced reticule bloom. They didn't really make the guns point to the ceiling. The stability mods in that game were essentially accuracy mods, that reduced the rate of the reticule bloom from firing rapidly, and effectively reduced the group size. In ME3 the equivalent mods would actually be the scopes, from a mechanics point of view. Even if making the scope the mod for accuracy is largely a bad idea.
ME2 largely did not have an implementation like ME3 either. The Revenant could be near laser accurate under Adrenaline Rush if you just tapped the trigger over and over. Tempest is full auto, like in ME2, but it feels wrong because the accuracy is even worse and the rate of fire is lower.
I think the real reason they went with this system was to somewhat simplify the weapon design. Practical accuracy was limited to essentially two stats: accuracy and stability.
While this isn't a perfect system, there is plenty of room for improvement. Weapons like Vindicator or Incisor could have the stability adjusted, as well as burst rate of fire. Revenant could get decent accuracy numbers. etc.
SP soldier should have got accuracy and stability bonuses in Combat Mastery if they were going to make the release weapons function as they did. Of course, you can still beat Insanity with release weapons and mods on a Soldier.
In Mass Effect there were indeed stability mods. However, stability in that game was absolutely not what it is in ME3. Mass Effect had accuracy degradation from shooting in an upright position, moving, or firing rapidly. Those all induced reticule bloom. They didn't really make the guns point to the ceiling. The stability mods in that game were essentially accuracy mods, that reduced the rate of the reticule bloom from firing rapidly, and effectively reduced the group size. In ME3 the equivalent mods would actually be the scopes, from a mechanics point of view. Even if making the scope the mod for accuracy is largely a bad idea.
ME2 largely did not have an implementation like ME3 either. The Revenant could be near laser accurate under Adrenaline Rush if you just tapped the trigger over and over. Tempest is full auto, like in ME2, but it feels wrong because the accuracy is even worse and the rate of fire is lower.
I think the real reason they went with this system was to somewhat simplify the weapon design. Practical accuracy was limited to essentially two stats: accuracy and stability.
While this isn't a perfect system, there is plenty of room for improvement. Weapons like Vindicator or Incisor could have the stability adjusted, as well as burst rate of fire. Revenant could get decent accuracy numbers. etc.
SP soldier should have got accuracy and stability bonuses in Combat Mastery if they were going to make the release weapons function as they did. Of course, you can still beat Insanity with release weapons and mods on a Soldier.
Modifié par capn233, 24 novembre 2012 - 10:43 .
#15
Posté 26 novembre 2012 - 04:56
Nitrocuban
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Recoil isn´t that simple, I recall a dev telling about a lot of different values that e.g. define how high the weapon kicks, how long it takes to come down again, how/if recoil increases with sutsained fire etc.
All that makes weapons feel different, something ME1 was lacking very much.
Just compare Black Widow and Valiant: heavy, hart hitting, high recoil vs. light, fast, close to no recoil, low(er) damage. A BW without recoil would make the Valiant obsolet in most situations.
All that makes weapons feel different, something ME1 was lacking very much.
Just compare Black Widow and Valiant: heavy, hart hitting, high recoil vs. light, fast, close to no recoil, low(er) damage. A BW without recoil would make the Valiant obsolet in most situations.
