373 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Having recently replayed Anders' starting quest in DA2 and having picked both options offered to me that allowed me to argue against Anders' viewpoint, I noticed that they both mentioned the risk of possession.
Now, while this is a very valid argument, I couldn't help but wish I could counter Anders' comparison of magic with a sword or a bow by pointing out that magic is capable of much greater destruction in the hands of a inexperienced child than a sword is in the hands of a trained adult.

I did not create this thread to fuel more Templar vs Mage flamewars; tough I fear that may be inevitable; but simply to humbly request for the writers of Bioware to create arguments for Pro-Templars players in DA3 that are not restricted to "Demons and Tevinter".

[Yuoaman]

Insert the inevitable Templar vs. Mage comment intended to instigate a flame war here.

[Yuoaman]

Seriously, though, I agree - while I always sided with the mage side of things (because of my own personal morality) the Templar side really got the short end of the stick - they had the one note to argue on and they beat that argument to death over the course of the game.

[MisterJB]

Thank you for your support, Yuoaman.

Here is another example:

"Anders: Mages must be empowered to police ourselves.
Me: But Anders, as it has been shown many times in our history, police forces tend to ignore the crimes commited by their own kind against those who are different. A police force composed only by mages would be a great threat to mundanes just as a mundane-only police force, the templars, have lead to abuse against mages. It would be better if both templars and mages could pursue blood mages as well as...oh wait, I can't say this?"

[iSignIn]

You cannot provide much argument to support a thesis which is essentially self-contradictory.

[Sibu]

This is actually a good idea

An small debate of 3 scenes where both sides talk about the subject or a random , yet smart, conversation between NPC's sounds good.

I really hope the Templars will not be the Storm Troopers of DA, the dragon cultists sound better for that role

[Sibu]

iSignIn wrote...

You cannot provide much argument to support a thesis which is essentially self-contradictory.

You mean that silly litle thread of the "Hipocrisy of the Order"?

[MisterJB]

Yuoaman wrote...

Insert the inevitable Templar vs. Mage comment intended to instigate a flame war here.

iSignIn wrote...

You cannot provide much argument to support a thesis which is essentially self-contradictory.

Ah, and here it is.

[Rinshikai10]

You make same good points MisterJB. I can agree with want you are saying.

[Mello]

I agree with this even though I'm not pro-templar it would be nice to have the option. It's a good idea and I support it.

[Navasha]

In my own personal opinion, the problem with trying to justify a pro-templar position is that much of it is unjustifiable.
Its hard to come up with any good reason why children are taken from their families and thrust into what are basically concentration camps. If they end up being good slaves and follow all the rules they get to keep what little lives they are allowed, but if they break a rule, they get emotionally lobotomized.
Its like trying to come up with justifications for slavery. There really isn't any "good" way to defend it.
A king or other political ruler also has the power to cause death and misery on a wide scale. Saying that simply having that power, even if it is never used, is justification for condemnation is just play wrong. The divine herself.... has the power to call an exalted march laying waste to whole towns and countries... Sounds like a more devastating power than any mage I have seen in a game.

[iSignIn]

Sibu wrote...

You mean that silly litle thread of the "Hipocrisy of the Order"?

No, I mean the obvious self-contradiction between Andraste as a champion of freedom and equality and the enslavement of Mages. I didn't even see that thread - you will not find a post by me in it.

I'm not even against slavery in a world like Thedas - I think some form of slavery is still necessary in the current stage of development of Thedas. I'm merely pointing out an obvious contradiction.

That, and the universally acknowledged historical fact that the Chantry was founded to cement the hegemony of Orlais, which disproves entirely its divine origin or purpose.

Modifié par iSignIn, 21 novembre 2012 - 01:32 .

[DaHeadVampire]

I agree with some of the things the templars do it's just that the way they practice some laws and stuff urks me , I like mages a teeny bit more than mages but that's only because I find them cool I like Cullen and Alistair (even though he wasnt really a templar ) but meredith , a big no-no on my list

[Zardoc]

Navasha wrote...

In my own personal opinion, the problem with trying to justify a pro-templar position is that much of it is unjustifiable.
Its hard to come up with any good reason why children are taken from their families and thrust into what are basically concentration camps. If they end up being good slaves and follow all the rules they get to keep what little lives they are allowed, but if they break a rule, they get emotionally lobotomized.
Its like trying to come up with justifications for slavery. There really isn't any "good" way to defend it.
A king or other political ruler also has the power to cause death and misery on a wide scale. Saying that simply having that power, even if it is never used, is justification for condemnation is just play wrong. The divine herself.... has the power to call an exalted march laying waste to whole towns and countries... Sounds like a more devastating power than any mage I have seen in a game.

First of all, the Circles are hardly concentration camps. Kirkwall had the worst of all Circles, and even then it only became bad when Meredith started cracking.

Second, there are more than enough reasons for taking children with magical abilities away from their parents. For one, the Circle offers them a safe haven, both from demons who would prey on their unsupecting minds aswell as more mundane threats, like their own parents/villagers/neighbours/etc, afraid of their abilities (justified or not). The Circle also teaches them how to properly control their abilities, and how to deal with demons, should they ever encounter them.

Modifié par Zardoc, 21 novembre 2012 - 01:39 .

[Direwolf0294]

Something about how anyone can gain physical strength, learn to use a sword or bow etc but not everyone can learn magic would be nice, though I guess the counter arguement to that is whether you should punish someone for being born with something, even if that something is increadibly dangerous and destructive.

[Plaintiff]

I don't have any problem with Bioware giving you the opportunity to express more wrong opinions in-game.

[Navasha]

Zardoc wrote...

Navasha wrote...

-snip  

First of all, the Circles are hardly concentration camps. Kirkwall had the worst of all Circles, and even then it only became bad when Meredith started cracking.

Second, there are more than enough reasons for taking children with magical abilities away from their parents. For one, the Circle offers them a safe haven, both from demons who would prey on their unsupecting minds aswell as more mundane threats, like their own parents/villagers/neighbours/etc, afraid of their abilities (justified or not). 

Again, I disagree.   A confined place where you are forcibly placed and not allowed to leave is a prison.   No matter if they call it a school, circle, etc.    I can see no reason to ever imprison an innocent person just because they have unusual abilities. 

As for abducting children to "protect" them.   Nope, not buying that argument either.   The circle doesn't protect them from demons.   In fact, they offer them up to the demons in the harrowing without ever telling them what they will face.   Only those smart enough or strong enough to realize the trickery manage to survive, the rest are killed.   Doesn't sound like protection to me.

[Sibu]

iSignIn wrote...

Sibu wrote...

You mean that silly litle thread of the "Hipocrisy of the Order"?

No, I mean the obvious self-contradiction between Andraste as a champion of freedom and equality and the enslavement of Mages. I didn't even see that thread - you will not find a post by me in it.

I'm not even against slavery in a world like Thedas - I think some form of slavery is still necessary in the current stage of development of Thedas. I'm merely pointing out an obvious contradiction.

That, and the universally acknowledged historical fact that the Chantry was founded to cement the hegemony of Orlais, which disproves entirely its divine origin or purpose.

Why not? It was a good thread

Mages are not slaves, but of course, sympathisers always used this falacy

[Rawgrim]

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't have any problem with Bioware giving you the opportunity to express more wrong opinions in-game.

All your arguments about that bit got owned completely in another thread yesterday, if i remember correctly. Now you are just arguing for the sake of it.

[Zardoc]

Navasha wrote...

Zardoc wrote...

Navasha wrote...

-snip  

First of all, the Circles are hardly concentration camps. Kirkwall had the worst of all Circles, and even then it only became bad when Meredith started cracking.

Second, there are more than enough reasons for taking children with magical abilities away from their parents. For one, the Circle offers them a safe haven, both from demons who would prey on their unsupecting minds aswell as more mundane threats, like their own parents/villagers/neighbours/etc, afraid of their abilities (justified or not). 

Again, I disagree.   A confined place where you are forcibly placed and not allowed to leave is a prison.   No matter if they call it a school, circle, etc.    I can see no reason to ever imprison an innocent person just because they have unusual abilities. 

As for abducting children to "protect" them.   Nope, not buying that argument either.   The circle doesn't protect them from demons.   In fact, they offer them up to the demons in the harrowing without ever telling them what they will face.   Only those smart enough or strong enough to realize the trickery manage to survive, the rest are killed.   Doesn't sound like protection to me.

Those "unusual abilities" make them a threat to their families, themselves and anyone around them, unless they are properly trained. They have powers they cannot control or even understand, and they are like a beacon for demons. That is why the Circles exist, and that is why children with magical abilities need to be brought there.

And the Circle DOES protect them from demons. They teach them how to use their abilities, teach them about demons, the Fade, everything they need to know to protect themselves. And the Harrowing exists for the sole reason of weeding out the weak and the stupid. A mage who is too weak to protect himself from a demon, or too stupid to fall for their tricks and in turn gets possessed, turning him into an abomination capable of wreaking unimaginable havoc, is a threat which has to be dealt with.

Modifié par Zardoc, 21 novembre 2012 - 01:55 .

[Rawgrim]

Zardoc wrote...

Navasha wrote...

Zardoc wrote...

Navasha wrote...

-snip  

First of all, the Circles are hardly concentration camps. Kirkwall had the worst of all Circles, and even then it only became bad when Meredith started cracking.

Second, there are more than enough reasons for taking children with magical abilities away from their parents. For one, the Circle offers them a safe haven, both from demons who would prey on their unsupecting minds aswell as more mundane threats, like their own parents/villagers/neighbours/etc, afraid of their abilities (justified or not). 

Again, I disagree.   A confined place where you are forcibly placed and not allowed to leave is a prison.   No matter if they call it a school, circle, etc.    I can see no reason to ever imprison an innocent person just because they have unusual abilities. 

As for abducting children to "protect" them.   Nope, not buying that argument either.   The circle doesn't protect them from demons.   In fact, they offer them up to the demons in the harrowing without ever telling them what they will face.   Only those smart enough or strong enough to realize the trickery manage to survive, the rest are killed.   Doesn't sound like protection to me.

Those "unusual abilities" make them a threat to their families, themselves and anyone around them, unless they are properly trained. That is what the Circles are for.

And the Circle DOES protect them from demons. They teach them how to use their abilities, teach them about demons, the Fade, everything they need to know to protect themselves. And the Harrowing exists for the sole reason of weeding out the weak and the stupid. A mage who is too weak to protect himself from a demon, or too stupid to fall for their tricks and in turn gets possessed, turning him into an abomination capable of wreaking unimaginable havoc, is a threat which has to be dealt with.

Spot on.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

MisterJB wrote...

Having recently replayed Anders' starting quest in DA2 and having picked both options offered to me that allowed me to argue against Anders' viewpoint, I noticed that they both mentioned the risk of possession.
Now, while this is a very valid argument, I couldn't help but wish I could counter Anders' comparison of magic with a sword or a bow by pointing out that magic is capable of much greater destruction in the hands of a inexperienced child than a sword is in the hands of a trained adult.

Yeap. It happen to Connor at Recliff,thanks to Jowan.

 

MisterJB wrote.. 
I did not create this thread to fuel more Templar vs Mage flamewars; tough I fear that may be inevitable; but simply to humbly request for the writers of Bioware to create arguments for Pro-Templars players in DA3 that are not restricted to "Demons and Tevinter".

They already have. Play more DAs, DLCs and read codices, you'll see. You just need to find them. 

Want more  argument?
1. Magic had been used to swallow the entire Arlathan's city thousand of years ago. Read the history codex by the elf's first keeper. Can sword and bow do that? Nope.

2. Magic has cause the undead Arlatahn Elves and Tervinters to battle for eternity at Sundermount, killing any present living being who pass by. Can sword and bow do that? Nope.

3. Magic is used to open portal for demons to enter this world and slaughter innocent people at Red Cliff and Soldier Peak. Can sword and bow do that? Nope.

4. Magic was performed to sacrifice thousand of elven slaves and barbarians. 

5. Magic drive any rational person to lust for power in horrifying manner for example both Meredith ( The red Lyrium ) and Uldred ( blood magic and mind control ). Sword and bow could not do so. No ordinary sword and bow could turn any person into power hungry abomination fools. 

6. Magic corrupt the Tervinter Mages and they became the first darkspawn. 

7. Magic corrupted the 7 Old Gods and they became the archdemons responsible for the blights which forever destroy the Tervinter Empire.

8. Too many evidences of magic abuses and too many evidences that prove mages cannot be trusted with so much power like magic. They are not mature or understand enough the consequences and are so easily succumbed to power temptation and demon posession as shown in Kirkwall. Why wouldn't they? Except for PC mages ( who always be plot shielded and reated as the "chosen one" )  every other mages are always weakling fools physically and mentally, they have to resort to nasty trickery like abomination to gain the upper hand instead of using sword and bow.    

9. Do not assume I'm a pro templar. I have enough reasons to hate the templars and the chantry fools as well. Do what you will with my pointers but leave my character alone in peace.. or I'll be very very angry that even the incredible hulk would fear my rage. 

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 21 novembre 2012 - 02:06 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

I agree with MisterJB. In fact, I would've liked to see more sensible arguments from both sides in DA2 rather than the usual "OMG WE'RE SO OPPRESSED" or "OMG MAGES SO DANGEROUS." At the very least, being able to express a variety of pro-mage or pro-templar opinions would open up some roleplaying freedom for DA3 instead of being only 100% templar, 100% mage, or exactly in between.

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
They already have. Play more DAs, DLCs and read codices, you'll see. You just need to find them. 

The OP's point is that we're unable to express a variety of opinions about the mage/templar conflict IN-GAME, not here on the forums.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 21 novembre 2012 - 02:04 .

[Plaintiff]

Rawgrim wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't have any problem with Bioware giving you the opportunity to express more wrong opinions in-game.

All your arguments about that bit got owned completely in another thread yesterday, if i remember correctly. Now you are just arguing for the sake of it.

I don't understand. In what respect was I "owned"? I have yet to see a logical counterpoint to any argument I've made on this forum ever.

[TJPags]

Zardoc wrote...

Navasha wrote...

Zardoc wrote...

Navasha wrote...

-snip  

First of all, the Circles are hardly concentration camps. Kirkwall had the worst of all Circles, and even then it only became bad when Meredith started cracking.

Second, there are more than enough reasons for taking children with magical abilities away from their parents. For one, the Circle offers them a safe haven, both from demons who would prey on their unsupecting minds aswell as more mundane threats, like their own parents/villagers/neighbours/etc, afraid of their abilities (justified or not). 

Again, I disagree.   A confined place where you are forcibly placed and not allowed to leave is a prison.   No matter if they call it a school, circle, etc.    I can see no reason to ever imprison an innocent person just because they have unusual abilities. 

As for abducting children to "protect" them.   Nope, not buying that argument either.   The circle doesn't protect them from demons.   In fact, they offer them up to the demons in the harrowing without ever telling them what they will face.   Only those smart enough or strong enough to realize the trickery manage to survive, the rest are killed.   Doesn't sound like protection to me.

Those "unusual abilities" make them a threat to their families, themselves and anyone around them, unless they are properly trained. They have powers they cannot control or even understand, and they are like a beacon for demons. That is why the Circles exist, and that is why children with magical abilities need to be brought there.

And the Circle DOES protect them from demons. They teach them how to use their abilities, teach them about demons, the Fade, everything they need to know to protect themselves. And the Harrowing exists for the sole reason of weeding out the weak and the stupid. A mage who is too weak to protect himself from a demon, or too stupid to fall for their tricks and in turn gets possessed, turning him into an abomination capable of wreaking unimaginable havoc, is a threat which has to be dealt with.

slow clap of appreciation.

Excellent point, well said.

MisterJB, I agree completely.  One of the things I disliked about DA2 was the lack of argument you could give to Anders, and the one dimensional aspect of his own arguments.  The topic is very deep, as the multitude of threads on this topic demonstrates, yet in game it remains so shallow.