373 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

Herr Uhl wrote...
What does it matter if Anders is the cause? It still failed from an objective point of view.

It matters, because there were extremists on both sides who were deliberately workign to break the system.

Even WITH all the crap that was going in Kirkwall and everywhere else, after all the influence and pressure - the vote on circle separation BARELY passed.
So obviosuly the mages aren't as opressed as many claim.

Also, mages rebelling doesn't mean the system doesn't work any mroe that a prison riot means the prison system fails. There have been a thousand riots trought history. The prison system is still here.

For a thousand years the Cirlce system fulfilled it's purpose.

[paul165]

Rawgrim wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

1) the current system didn't fail

It kind of did when the Templars split from the chantry.

Some did. Not all of them. And it happened because of what anders did in Kirkwall.

Yeah, the Circle system was rock-solid until a single sewer-dwelling hobo rocked up and toppled it single-handedly.

War doesn't jsut erupt in a vaccuum, this conflict is the result of a millenium of increasing tensions on both sides. It could be argued that it was always going on.

Tension caused by Meredith, under the influence of magic, and Orsino - a psychotic mage. Add that terrorist Anders into the mix, and the situation had no chance at ever being resolved peacefully.

Kirkwall was a perfect storm as you say between the high number of instances of blood magic, Anders, the lyrium idol and Orsino it was always going to burn

[Rawgrim]

Plaintiff wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
As others have said, unless explicitally told otherwise, the rules of a fictional world work just like ours.

We've been underground. Where's the fuel? On some unexplored desert continent that the writers haven't invented yet?

I`ve been underground too, and in caves. Never saw any fuel. i am sure there could be oil off the coast of Ferelden, though. I did notice oil lamps in both games too, so they do have fuel...

[Pzykozis]

Rawgrim wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
Are!? You!? Insane!?

Why!? Are!? You!? Shouting!?

Do you want to see orlesian mages fighting ferelden mages in wars of conquests? Peasants used as fuel for blood spells?

Yeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaah... that already happens, regardless. Chantry oversight didn't stop either side from employing magic in the Orlesian occupation of Ferelden.

There've been massive magical wars prior to the Dragon Age. Arlathan vs Tevinter, Andraste vs Tevinter, that Calenhad guy had a mage on hand, Tevinter vs the Qunari is still on hand... there's probably more I'm forgetting.

And you know what? The world is still not an abomination-ridden cinder.

Maybe the circle has something to do with that?

All them blood mages in the Tevinter's war with the Qunari.. So many demons that Tevinter doesn't even exi... oh wait. All them elven mage keepers and otherwise, and so the elvhen no longer exis... oh wait.

Not that I'm saying its fool proof or even giving my opinion on the situation.

[Plaintiff]

Rawgrim wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

1) the current system didn't fail

It kind of did when the Templars split from the chantry.

Some did. Not all of them. And it happened because of what anders did in Kirkwall.

Yeah, the Circle system was rock-solid until a single sewer-dwelling hobo rocked up and toppled it single-handedly.

War doesn't jsut erupt in a vaccuum, this conflict is the result of a millenium of increasing tensions on both sides. It could be argued that it was always going on.

Tension caused by Meredith, under the influence of magic, and Orsino - a psychotic mage. Add that terrorist Anders into the mix, and the situation had no chance at ever being resolved peacefully.

It was going to erupt eventually. There's no reason it had to be Kirkwall, and there's no reason any of the individuals involved were required. It was an inevitability. In a general sense, even the most amenable mages like Wynne were not satisfied with their lot, and the Chantry was determined to keep taking more from them.

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
Why!? Are!? You!? Shouting!?

I'm in disbelief someone could propose something so destructive for everyone.
It's like saying: "The best way to prevent wars is giving everyone atomic bombs."

Yeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaah... that already happens, regardless. Chantry oversight didn't stop either side from employing magic in the Orlesian occupation of Ferelden.

Maric had one mage, the orlesians two or three.
Now imagine if they could each just grab the entirety of the Circle of Magi without Chantry oversight to prevent them from using blood magic or summond demons.

There've been massive magical wars prior to the Dragon Age. Arlathan vs Tevinter, Andraste vs Tevinter, that Calenhad guy had a mage on hand, Tevinter vs the Qunari is still on hand... there's probably more I'm forgetting.

And you know what? The world is still not an abomination-ridden cinder.

And remember what happened to Arlathan? Right, I don't see a mundane army doing that.
And the whole world was an abomination filled wasteland after the Fall of Tevinter and the Rise of the Chantry. It is the Chantry that prevented more magical abuse in Southern Thedas for nearly a millenia. The one magocracy in the world is collapsing due to a conitnuous war and could teach the "poor opressed" mages what true opression looks like.
If there aren't more abominations, which is debatable since Desire and Pride Abominations can inpersonate Magisters; it's because they use blood magic to enslave demons and I'm going to go on a limb here and say that the blood required doesn't come from their veins.

Modifié par MisterJB, 22 novembre 2012 - 07:41 .

[paul165]

Plaintiff wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
As others have said, unless explicitally told otherwise, the rules of a fictional world work just like ours.

We've been underground. Where's the fuel? On some unexplored desert continent that the writers haven't invented yet?

We haven't been anywhere where oil is obvious therefore there is no oil in the setting - seriously?

Besides you don't need fossil fuels you can run steam generators with wood although it's less efficient.

[Plaintiff]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
What does it matter if Anders is the cause? It still failed from an objective point of view.

It matters, because there were extremists on both sides who were deliberately workign to break the system.

Even WITH all the crap that was going in Kirkwall and everywhere else, after all the influence and pressure - the vote on circle separation BARELY passed.
So obviosuly the mages aren't as opressed as many claim.

Also, mages rebelling doesn't mean the system doesn't work any mroe that a prison riot means the prison system fails. There have been a thousand riots trought history. The prison system is still here.

For a thousand years the Cirlce system fulfilled it's purpose.

The vote was not participated in by every single mage, only the representatives of their factions. It's not an accurate reflection of how the masses felt.

[paul165]

Pzykozis wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
Are!? You!? Insane!?

Why!? Are!? You!? Shouting!?

Do you want to see orlesian mages fighting ferelden mages in wars of conquests? Peasants used as fuel for blood spells?

Yeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaah... that already happens, regardless. Chantry oversight didn't stop either side from employing magic in the Orlesian occupation of Ferelden.

There've been massive magical wars prior to the Dragon Age. Arlathan vs Tevinter, Andraste vs Tevinter, that Calenhad guy had a mage on hand, Tevinter vs the Qunari is still on hand... there's probably more I'm forgetting.

And you know what? The world is still not an abomination-ridden cinder.

Maybe the circle has something to do with that?

All them blood mages in the Tevinter's war with the Qunari.. So many demons that Tevinter doesn't even exi... oh wait. All them elven mage keepers and otherwise, and so the elvhen no longer exis... oh wait.

Not that I'm saying its fool proof or even giving my opinion on the situation.

Well the Elves aren't exactly doing very well now are they? For that matter neither is Tevinter although abominations are not the primary cause in either case.

[Rawgrim]

paul165 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
As others have said, unless explicitally told otherwise, the rules of a fictional world work just like ours.

We've been underground. Where's the fuel? On some unexplored desert continent that the writers haven't invented yet?

We haven't been anywhere where oil is obvious therefore there is no oil in the setting - seriously?

Besides you don't need fossil fuels you can run steam generators with wood although it's less efficient.

We never saw coal underground either. and we haven`t been under water, so how can there be steam?

[paul165]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
What does it matter if Anders is the cause? It still failed from an objective point of view.

It matters, because there were extremists on both sides who were deliberately workign to break the system.

Even WITH all the crap that was going in Kirkwall and everywhere else, after all the influence and pressure - the vote on circle separation BARELY passed.
So obviosuly the mages aren't as opressed as many claim.

Also, mages rebelling doesn't mean the system doesn't work any mroe that a prison riot means the prison system fails. There have been a thousand riots trought history. The prison system is still here.

For a thousand years the Cirlce system fulfilled it's purpose.

The vote was not participated in by every single mage, only the representatives of their factions. It's not an accurate reflection of how the masses felt.

You have a better representation to offer?No? Then it's a valid point just like the history one was.

[paul165]

Rawgrim wrote...

paul165 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
As others have said, unless explicitally told otherwise, the rules of a fictional world work just like ours.

We've been underground. Where's the fuel? On some unexplored desert continent that the writers haven't invented yet?

We haven't been anywhere where oil is obvious therefore there is no oil in the setting - seriously?

Besides you don't need fossil fuels you can run steam generators with wood although it's less efficient.

We never saw coal underground either. and we haven`t been under water, so how can there be steam?

Pardon?

[Herr Uhl]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
What does it matter if Anders is the cause? It still failed from an objective point of view.

It matters, because there were extremists on both sides who were deliberately workign to break the system.

Even WITH all the crap that was going in Kirkwall and everywhere else, after all the influence and pressure - the vote on circle separation BARELY passed.
So obviosuly the mages aren't as opressed as many claim.

Also, mages rebelling doesn't mean the system doesn't work any mroe that a prison riot means the prison system fails. There have been a thousand riots trought history. The prison system is still here.

For a thousand years the Cirlce system fulfilled it's purpose.

It isn't fulfilling it's purpose at the moment in the game, which is what matters to me. And extremists on both sides is one of the things that the system should take into account, especially when it comes to the ones that are directly governed by them (or were rather).

Am I saying that circles should be abolished completely? Of course not. But if you have a prison riot, should you not question the way the prison is run instead of waving it off as inevitable. Prisons have changed, and will probably continue changing.

[paul165]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
What does it matter if Anders is the cause? It still failed from an objective point of view.

It matters, because there were extremists on both sides who were deliberately workign to break the system.

Even WITH all the crap that was going in Kirkwall and everywhere else, after all the influence and pressure - the vote on circle separation BARELY passed.
So obviosuly the mages aren't as opressed as many claim.

Also, mages rebelling doesn't mean the system doesn't work any mroe that a prison riot means the prison system fails. There have been a thousand riots trought history. The prison system is still here.

For a thousand years the Cirlce system fulfilled it's purpose.

It isn't fulfilling it's purpose at the moment in the game, which is what matters to me. And extremists on both sides is one of the things that the system should take into account, especially when it comes to the ones that are directly governed by them (or were rather).

Am I saying that circles should be abolished completely? Of course not. But if you have a prison riot, should you not question the way the prison is run instead of waving it off as inevitable. Prisons have changed, and will probably continue changing.

Sure no system is perfect and it needs review but as you say it's a long way from that to ditching the circle system as some on this thread advocate.

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...
And remember what happened to Arlathan? Right, I don't see a mundane army doing that.

I'm doubtful that Arlathan "sank" or whatever the hell they say happened. It was probably standard looting and mayhem. Ruins have a tendency to crumble.

And the whole world was an abomination filled wasteland after the Fall of Tevinter and the Rise of the Chantry.

So how is it that any non-abominations survived to the current age? A wasteland is a barren area, and the few humans that survived this apparent apocalypse would've died before soil became fertile again.

It is the Chantry that prevented more magical abuse in Southern Thedas for nearly a millenia.

By being pre-emptively abusive, cause that's better!

The one magocracy in the world is collapsing due to a conitnuous war and could teach the "poor opressed" mages what true opression looks like.

And this is indicated... where, exactly?

If there aren't more abominations, which is debatable since Desire and Pride Abominations can inpersonate Magisters; it's because they use blood magic to enslave demons and I'm going to go on a limb here and say that the blood required doesn't come from their veins.

The point is that if the Chantry and, by extension, you, weren't overexaggerating the dangers of magic generally, Tevinter would've been reduced to a smoking crater years ago.

[Herr Uhl]

Plaintiff wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
As others have said, unless explicitally told otherwise, the rules of a fictional world work just like ours.

We've been underground. Where's the fuel? On some unexplored desert continent that the writers haven't invented yet?

There is plenty of coal to keep the furnaces of Thedas running. Hell, Branka became a Paragon for inventing smokeless coal.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 22 novembre 2012 - 07:55 .

[Plaintiff]

paul165 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
What does it matter if Anders is the cause? It still failed from an objective point of view.

It matters, because there were extremists on both sides who were deliberately workign to break the system.

Even WITH all the crap that was going in Kirkwall and everywhere else, after all the influence and pressure - the vote on circle separation BARELY passed.
So obviosuly the mages aren't as opressed as many claim.

Also, mages rebelling doesn't mean the system doesn't work any mroe that a prison riot means the prison system fails. There have been a thousand riots trought history. The prison system is still here.

For a thousand years the Cirlce system fulfilled it's purpose.

The vote was not participated in by every single mage, only the representatives of their factions. It's not an accurate reflection of how the masses felt.

You have a better representation to offer?No? Then it's a valid point just like the history one was.

I'm just pointing out that when Lotion says  "The motion only passed by a single vote, so mages obviously don't feel oppressed", the truth of the matter is that the vote was two out of three. So all it proves is that one mage didn't feel oppressed (or possibly was just afraid of dying), and he just happened to be in charge oh his faction.

And that faction was the 'Loyalists', who, as you might guess from their title, are biased in favour of the Chantry anyway. But I imagine they'll likely secede from the bulk of the mages to join the Chantry, if they really feel that strongly about it.

[Rawgrim]

paul165 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

paul165 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
As others have said, unless explicitally told otherwise, the rules of a fictional world work just like ours.

We've been underground. Where's the fuel? On some unexplored desert continent that the writers haven't invented yet?

We haven't been anywhere where oil is obvious therefore there is no oil in the setting - seriously?

Besides you don't need fossil fuels you can run steam generators with wood although it's less efficient.

We never saw coal underground either. and we haven`t been under water, so how can there be steam?

Pardon?

Sarcasm aimed at a previous post. Not yours. Sorry for the confusion.

[paul165]

Rawgrim wrote...

paul165 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

paul165 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
As others have said, unless explicitally told otherwise, the rules of a fictional world work just like ours.

We've been underground. Where's the fuel? On some unexplored desert continent that the writers haven't invented yet?

We haven't been anywhere where oil is obvious therefore there is no oil in the setting - seriously?

Besides you don't need fossil fuels you can run steam generators with wood although it's less efficient.

We never saw coal underground either. and we haven`t been under water, so how can there be steam?

Pardon?

Sarcasm aimed at a previous post. Not yours. Sorry for the confusion.

Ah oops:pinched: No problem.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Can your mind seriously only conceive of one solution to any problem? There are dozens, if not hundreds of conceivable alternatives, of different levels of viability, and since the current system already failed, any one of them would be preferable by default

1) the current system didn't fail

It did. The mages voted to stay in the Chantry, and then were forced out by a psychopath with control of the templars. That's less the system failing than it spontaneously combusting.

2) What other alternative? Nohing you suggested has ever been viable.

I dunno. I think the secular templar thing could work.

3) No. Not a single one would be preferable. None.

Everything the way it is, minus religious bigotry. I think that would be preferable.

[Plaintiff]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Everything the way it is, minus religious bigotry. I think that would be preferable.

You might think so, but Lotion gets hung up on this point every single time.

[paul165]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Can your mind seriously only conceive of one solution to any problem? There are dozens, if not hundreds of conceivable alternatives, of different levels of viability, and since the current system already failed, any one of them would be preferable by default

1) the current system didn't fail

It did. The mages voted to stay in the Chantry, and then were forced out by a psychopath with control of the templars. That's less the system failing than it spontaneously combusting.

2) What other alternative? Nohing you suggested has ever been viable.

I dunno. I think the secular templar thing could work.

3) No. Not a single one would be preferable. None.

Everything the way it is, minus religious bigotry. I think that would be preferable.

Ideally sure. Then problem is the Chantry is so much a part of every day life in Thedas that you can't just replace it so easily.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

paul165 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

paul165 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...


You mean money that the general population have donated to the chantry etc? Just take it by force? Yeah...that would be popular.

Just the portion dedicated to the Circles and the Templar order. They don't need that anyway.

And......wait for it.........

Instant Holy War (just add water!)
The point is to find a peaceful solution not to replace a minor war with a bigger war.

Aren't the templars already not working for the Chantry?

Besides, there is no minor war. This is already basically World War Seven. And Plaintiff has a point about how the Chantry's going to do their best to torpedo this anyway.

At the moment it's a gang war from hell as both the Templars and Mages have split into factions and are fighting each other whilst everyone else tries to stay out of the way (from what I remember of the end of DA2).  If the mages attack the Chantry then everyone unites against the mages and that is not survivable.

The Chantry can be managed give them a nice important sounding "oversight" role with very little political power and a cut of the profits (call it "rent" of the buildings) and you can keep them negotiating. Blow up priests and steal money from them they can portray themselves as the victims and call holy war to "prevent the demon worshippers threatening humanities one hope of redemption" at which point all the mages die horribly as everyone unites against them.

I can't see the Chantry not doing that, anyway.

[Rawgrim]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Can your mind seriously only conceive of one solution to any problem? There are dozens, if not hundreds of conceivable alternatives, of different levels of viability, and since the current system already failed, any one of them would be preferable by default

1) the current system didn't fail

It did. The mages voted to stay in the Chantry, and then were forced out by a psychopath with control of the templars. That's less the system failing than it spontaneously combusting.

2) What other alternative? Nohing you suggested has ever been viable.

I dunno. I think the secular templar thing could work.

3) No. Not a single one would be preferable. None.

Everything the way it is, minus religious bigotry. I think that would be preferable.

I`d also add that the mages were also under control of Orsino. An even worse psychopath than Meredith ever was. Orsino actually helped Quentin. The guy who killed Leanna Hawke...And this happened years before the hell really broke out in Kirkwall.

[paul165]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

paul165 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

paul165 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...


You mean money that the general population have donated to the chantry etc? Just take it by force? Yeah...that would be popular.

Just the portion dedicated to the Circles and the Templar order. They don't need that anyway.

And......wait for it.........

Instant Holy War (just add water!)
The point is to find a peaceful solution not to replace a minor war with a bigger war.

Aren't the templars already not working for the Chantry?

Besides, there is no minor war. This is already basically World War Seven. And Plaintiff has a point about how the Chantry's going to do their best to torpedo this anyway.

At the moment it's a gang war from hell as both the Templars and Mages have split into factions and are fighting each other whilst everyone else tries to stay out of the way (from what I remember of the end of DA2).  If the mages attack the Chantry then everyone unites against the mages and that is not survivable.

The Chantry can be managed give them a nice important sounding "oversight" role with very little political power and a cut of the profits (call it "rent" of the buildings) and you can keep them negotiating. Blow up priests and steal money from them they can portray themselves as the victims and call holy war to "prevent the demon worshippers threatening humanities one hope of redemption" at which point all the mages die horribly as everyone unites against them.

I can't see the Chantry not doing that, anyway.

But the attempt is worthwhile surely? Even if it doesn't work it prevents the Chantry portraying themselves as victims thus reducing the odds everyone unites against the mages.