373 réponses à ce sujet

[xsdob]

Your honor, let the record show that the plaintiff has repeatedly expressed a bias and skewed view of all events presented and has shown blatant favoritism for mages and a discrimination against the chantry and templars.

I move that this case be dismissed and the charges dropped.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

paul165 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

paul165 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

paul165 wrote...


And......wait for it.........

Instant Holy War (just add water!)
The point is to find a peaceful solution not to replace a minor war with a bigger war.

Aren't the templars already not working for the Chantry?

Besides, there is no minor war. This is already basically World War Seven. And Plaintiff has a point about how the Chantry's going to do their best to torpedo this anyway.

At the moment it's a gang war from hell as both the Templars and Mages have split into factions and are fighting each other whilst everyone else tries to stay out of the way (from what I remember of the end of DA2).  If the mages attack the Chantry then everyone unites against the mages and that is not survivable.

The Chantry can be managed give them a nice important sounding "oversight" role with very little political power and a cut of the profits (call it "rent" of the buildings) and you can keep them negotiating. Blow up priests and steal money from them they can portray themselves as the victims and call holy war to "prevent the demon worshippers threatening humanities one hope of redemption" at which point all the mages die horribly as everyone unites against them.

I can't see the Chantry not doing that, anyway.

But the attempt is worthwhile surely? Even if it doesn't work it prevents the Chantry portraying themselves as victims thus reducing the odds everyone unites against the mages.

I think you underestimate the power of a hypocritical propaganda machine and the impression that God is on your side. But you're right. What you suggest should probably be Plan A. The Chantry will inevitably try to force more later, but by that point the mages can work to get more support among the people the Chantry will have to go to for their replacement soldiers.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

xsdob wrote...

Your honor, let the record show that the plaintiff has repeatedly expressed a bias and skewed view of all events presented and has shown blatant favoritism for mages and a discrimination against the chantry and templars.

I move that this case be dismissed and the charges dropped.

Plaintiffs generally present skewed versions of events. It's their job.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
For a thousand years the Cirlce system fulfilled it's purpose.

It isn't fulfilling it's purpose at the moment in the game, which is what matters to me. And extremists on both sides is one of the things that the system should take into account, especially when it comes to the ones that are directly governed by them (or were rather).

At the moment in the game, the system is not in effect.
So of course it's not fulfilling its purpose.

And pricely the leniency towards mages was what led to such extremist beeng free to cause such disturbances.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
For a thousand years the Cirlce system fulfilled it's purpose.

It isn't fulfilling it's purpose at the moment in the game, which is what matters to me. And extremists on both sides is one of the things that the system should take into account, especially when it comes to the ones that are directly governed by them (or were rather).

At the moment in the game, the system is not in effect.
So of course it's not fulfilling its purpose.

And pricely the leniency towards mages was what led to such extremist beeng free to cause such disturbances.

If memory serves, Anders didn't end the system. Lambert did.

[Arthur Cousland]

It took for me a second pro-templar playthrough to see things their way.

While not all mages are evil and desire to become all-powerful blood mages, the one or two that do ruin things for the "good mages" (ex. Tahrone and the ability to turn templars into abominations).  The average citizen has no defense against blood magic and the templars can't just sit around and wait for something bad to happen before acting, because then it's too late.

The hardest thing about being pro-templar in DA2 was having to be an ally with Meredith.  If there is a "pro-templar" path in DA3, I hope I'm not forced to work with such a nut-case.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
And remember what happened to Arlathan? Right, I don't see a mundane army doing that.

I'm doubtful that Arlathan "sank" or whatever the hell they say happened. It was probably standard looting and mayhem. Ruins have a tendency to crumble.

Be doubtfull all you want - elves and humans say the same thing. It is lore. Youre' free to doubt it.

And the whole world was an abomination filled wasteland after the Fall of Tevinter and the Rise of the Chantry.

So how is it that any non-abominations survived to the current age? A wasteland is a barren area, and the few humans that survived this apparent apocalypse would've died before soil became fertile again.

Humanity is resillient.
It survied the same way it survived every cataclyis mand disasterous even in history - the plauges and desases, massive wars, natural disasters, ice ages - humantiy survived them all.

So stop making that stupid argument already.

The point is that if the Chantry and, by extension, you, weren't overexaggerating the dangers of magic generally, Tevinter would've been reduced to a smoking crater years ago.

Which is a totatly wrong conclusion. Not only because of the above, but also because Tevinter also has circles.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Everything the way it is, minus religious bigotry. I think that would be preferable.

You might think so, but Lotion gets hung up on this point every single time.

I see plenety of bigotry.
Thing is, most if ain't of the religious variety.

[Rawgrim]

I certainly didn`t see Lotion get hung up on any religious bits at all. Maybe I completely missed that bit then.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Everything the way it is, minus religious bigotry. I think that would be preferable.

You might think so, but Lotion gets hung up on this point every single time.

I see plenety of bigotry.
Thing is, most if ain't of the religious variety.

No, I mean in-story religious bigotry. Like Lambert, Mere-death, and Alrik.

[paul165]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Everything the way it is, minus religious bigotry. I think that would be preferable.

You might think so, but Lotion gets hung up on this point every single time.

I see plenety of bigotry.
Thing is, most if ain't of the religious variety.

No, I mean in-story religious bigotry. Like Lambert, Mere-death, and Alrik.

How much of Meredith was Meredith and how much was the idol is pretty debatable though. By the time you really talk to her she's had the idol ?3 years? 4?.

[Plaintiff]

Rawgrim wrote...

I certainly didn`t see Lotion get hung up on any religious bits at all. Maybe I completely missed that bit then.

He explicitly said that anti-mage bigotry of the Chantry was justified and necessary.

Apparently it's impossible to educate people honestly and rationally about the dangers of magic, you have to demonize the minority or else you're not doing it right.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 22 novembre 2012 - 08:37 .

[Rawgrim]

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

I certainly didn`t see Lotion get hung up on any religious bits at all. Maybe I completely missed that bit then.

He explicitly said that anti-mage bigotry of the Chantry was justified and necessary.

Apparently it's impossible to educate people honestly and rationally about the dangers of magic, you have to demonize the minority or else you're not doing it right.

That does not equal religious stuff. I belive he was talking about the general dangers of magic.

Odd how people who constantly get posessed by demons ends up being demonized.

[Plaintiff]

Rawgrim wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

I certainly didn`t see Lotion get hung up on any religious bits at all. Maybe I completely missed that bit then.

He explicitly said that anti-mage bigotry of the Chantry was justified and necessary.

Apparently it's impossible to educate people honestly and rationally about the dangers of magic, you have to demonize the minority or else you're not doing it right.

That does not equal religious stuff. I belive he was talking about the general dangers of magic.

Odd how people who constantly get posessed by demons ends up being demonized.

It's perpetuated by the Chantry and a core tenet of the faith, it can't not be religious.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

paul165 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Everything the way it is, minus religious bigotry. I think that would be preferable.

You might think so, but Lotion gets hung up on this point every single time.

I see plenety of bigotry.
Thing is, most if ain't of the religious variety.

No, I mean in-story religious bigotry. Like Lambert, Mere-death, and Alrik.

How much of Meredith was Meredith and how much was the idol is pretty debatable though. By the time you really talk to her she's had the idol ?3 years? 4?.

The bigotry was probably about three-quarters the idol, and the rest was her own Meredith's own experience, with Meredith's childhood trauma coloring the rest of said experience. Anyway, point is, Meredith got away with it under the current system. If there was a mage overseeing her, that might have helped. And if she was overseeing the mage, that would help curb abuse from there. Of course, this is theoretically what the first enchanter is supposed to be for.

[Rawgrim]

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

I certainly didn`t see Lotion get hung up on any religious bits at all. Maybe I completely missed that bit then.

He explicitly said that anti-mage bigotry of the Chantry was justified and necessary.

Apparently it's impossible to educate people honestly and rationally about the dangers of magic, you have to demonize the minority or else you're not doing it right.

That does not equal religious stuff. I belive he was talking about the general dangers of magic.

Odd how people who constantly get posessed by demons ends up being demonized.

It's perpetuated by the Chantry and a core tenet of the faith, it can't not be religious.

Again: The religious bits wasn`t the argument he was making. Religion is why the chantry\\circle is what it is today. sure. But he was arguing that it was needed. No matter how religion is involved or not.

[Plaintiff]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

paul165 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Everything the way it is, minus religious bigotry. I think that would be preferable.

You might think so, but Lotion gets hung up on this point every single time.

I see plenety of bigotry.
Thing is, most if ain't of the religious variety.

No, I mean in-story religious bigotry. Like Lambert, Mere-death, and Alrik.

How much of Meredith was Meredith and how much was the idol is pretty debatable though. By the time you really talk to her she's had the idol ?3 years? 4?.

The bigotry was probably about three-quarters the idol, and the rest was her own Meredith's own experience, with Meredith's childhood trauma coloring the rest of said experience. Anyway, point is, Meredith got away with it under the current system. If there was a mage overseeing her, that might have helped. And if she was overseeing the mage, that would help curb abuse from there. Of course, this is theoretically what the first enchanter is supposed to be for.

Honestly, I don't think the idol made Meredith do anything that she didn't already want to, secretly. It preyed on her religious mania. She wants desperately to be the next Andraste or something,  is the impression I get. So when a voice issued forth from nowhere, she was totally ready to believe it was the Maker, without much prompting at all.

She experienced a moment of doubt, near the end, but that's all it was. A moment.

[paul165]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

paul165 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Everything the way it is, minus religious bigotry. I think that would be preferable.

You might think so, but Lotion gets hung up on this point every single time.

I see plenety of bigotry.
Thing is, most if ain't of the religious variety.

No, I mean in-story religious bigotry. Like Lambert, Mere-death, and Alrik.

How much of Meredith was Meredith and how much was the idol is pretty debatable though. By the time you really talk to her she's had the idol ?3 years? 4?.

The bigotry was probably about three-quarters the idol, and the rest was her own Meredith's own experience, with Meredith's childhood trauma coloring the rest of said experience. Anyway, point is, Meredith got away with it under the current system. If there was a mage overseeing her, that might have helped. And if she was overseeing the mage, that would help curb abuse from there. Of course, this is theoretically what the first enchanter is supposed to be for.

Providing the first enchanter isn't a bat**** insane bloodmage anyway...

[paul165]

Plaintiff wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

paul165 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Everything the way it is, minus religious bigotry. I think that would be preferable.

You might think so, but Lotion gets hung up on this point every single time.

I see plenety of bigotry.
Thing is, most if ain't of the religious variety.

No, I mean in-story religious bigotry. Like Lambert, Mere-death, and Alrik.

How much of Meredith was Meredith and how much was the idol is pretty debatable though. By the time you really talk to her she's had the idol ?3 years? 4?.

The bigotry was probably about three-quarters the idol, and the rest was her own Meredith's own experience, with Meredith's childhood trauma coloring the rest of said experience. Anyway, point is, Meredith got away with it under the current system. If there was a mage overseeing her, that might have helped. And if she was overseeing the mage, that would help curb abuse from there. Of course, this is theoretically what the first enchanter is supposed to be for.

Honestly, I don't think the idol made Meredith do anything that she didn't already want to, secretly. It preyed on her religious mania. She wants desperately to be the next Andraste or something,  is the impression I get. So when a voice issued forth from nowhere, she was totally ready to believe it was the Maker, without much prompting at all.

She experienced a moment of doubt, near the end, but that's all it was. A moment.

We get it you hate Meredith news at eleven.

But there is no real evidence for that as the mages get progressively more oppressed would tend to indicate that she is slowly losing her mind to the idol. You (well not you, you) almost have to respect how long she held on compared to Bertram or Varric who are almost instantly affected by it

[Arthur Cousland]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

The bigotry was probably about three-quarters the idol, and the rest was her own Meredith's own experience, with Meredith's childhood trauma coloring the rest of said experience. Anyway, point is, Meredith got away with it under the current system. If there was a mage overseeing her, that might have helped. And if she was overseeing the mage, that would help curb abuse from there. Of course, this is theoretically what the first enchanter is supposed to be for.

This is what confused me.  In Ferelden, Irving was in control of the circle and Gregoir was simply a colleague.  In Kirkwall, Meredith ran the show and Orsino seemed powerless to stop her from doing whatever she wished.  Where was Orsino when the templars were making mages tranquil at will?

It didn't help his case when Orsino did turn to blood magic in the end, had a circle full of blood mages and knew about Quentin.  Irving would have chosen death over joining Uldred.

Modifié par Arthur Cousland, 22 novembre 2012 - 09:04 .

[MisterJB]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
I dunno. I think the secular templar thing could work.

3) No. Not a single one would be preferable. None.

Everything the way it is, minus religious bigotry. I think that would be preferable.

Thedosian society is not looking to becoming a secular society anytime soon. So, rather than attempt to disassociate the Circle from the Chantry; who has proven to be capable of taking care of mages without being corrupted by exclusive acess to this power and by this I mean that there are no mage armies assisting in wars of conquest or secret squads of blood mages serving the Divine; simply try to send a sligthly altered message.
"Magic is dangerous. It must serve man and never rule over him. But Andraste wouldn't want her Chantry to become a torture chamber."

[The Hierophant]

Arthur Cousland wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

The bigotry was probably about three-quarters the idol, and the rest was her own Meredith's own experience, with Meredith's childhood trauma coloring the rest of said experience. Anyway, point is, Meredith got away with it under the current system. If there was a mage overseeing her, that might have helped. And if she was overseeing the mage, that would help curb abuse from there. Of course, this is theoretically what the first enchanter is supposed to be for.

This is what confused me.  In Ferelden, Irving was in control of the circle and Gregoir was simply a colleague.  In Kirkwall, Meredith ran the show and Orsino seemed powerless to stop her from doing whatever she wished.  Where was Orsino when the templars were making mages tranquil at will?

It didn't help his case when Orsino did turn to blood magic in the end, had a circle full of blood mages and knew about Quentin.  Irving would have chosen death over joining Uldred.

Meredith became the shadow ruler of Kirkwall after the previous Viscount tried to expel the order, killed her predecessor, and was executed by her afterwards. The current Viscount Dumar had limited power, and was more like a puppet ruler under Meredith.

[Plaintiff]

paul165 wrote...

We get it you hate Meredith news at eleven.

Yeah, the existence of this fictional videogame character drives me to white-hot tears of rage.

Gotta love how the 'rational' pro-templar debaters like to pile on ad hominem ad infinitum, but somehow I'm the one being 'biased' and now apparently emotional as well.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 22 novembre 2012 - 09:21 .

[Pzykozis]

paul165 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

paul165 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Everything the way it is, minus religious bigotry. I think that would be preferable.

You might think so, but Lotion gets hung up on this point every single time.

I see plenety of bigotry.
Thing is, most if ain't of the religious variety.

No, I mean in-story religious bigotry. Like Lambert, Mere-death, and Alrik.

How much of Meredith was Meredith and how much was the idol is pretty debatable though. By the time you really talk to her she's had the idol ?3 years? 4?.

The bigotry was probably about three-quarters the idol, and the rest was her own Meredith's own experience, with Meredith's childhood trauma coloring the rest of said experience. Anyway, point is, Meredith got away with it under the current system. If there was a mage overseeing her, that might have helped. And if she was overseeing the mage, that would help curb abuse from there. Of course, this is theoretically what the first enchanter is supposed to be for.

Honestly, I don't think the idol made Meredith do anything that she didn't already want to, secretly. It preyed on her religious mania. She wants desperately to be the next Andraste or something,  is the impression I get. So when a voice issued forth from nowhere, she was totally ready to believe it was the Maker, without much prompting at all.

She experienced a moment of doubt, near the end, but that's all it was. A moment.

We get it you hate Meredith news at eleven.

But there is no real evidence for that as the mages get progressively more oppressed would tend to indicate that she is slowly losing her mind to the idol. You (well not you, you) almost have to respect how long she held on compared to Bertram or Varric who are almost instantly affected by it

I'd say there's no real evidence either way, all we know was that prior to the idol Meredith was fairly oppressive and post idol she becomes more oppressive people can jump from point to point and make whatever they like up. As for resisting it its hard to say, dwarves made a thaig which looked like they revered the lyrium it's possible that they are more susceptible to it, given that the effect is subtle and encroaching on Meredith and fast and explosive on the dwarves would support that but doesn't necessary mean it to be true either.

Causality would suggest that the idol enhanced parts of her personality rather than creating new parts entirely (see Varric's and Bertram's greed being charged up thousandfold) but that's not to say it is true either.

[paul165]

Plaintiff wrote...

paul165 wrote...

We get it you hate Meredith news at eleven.

Yeah, the existence of this fictional videogame character drives me to white-hot tears of rage.

Gotta love how the 'rational' pro-templar debaters like to pile on ad hominem ad infinitum, but somehow I'm the one being 'biased' and now apparently emotional as well.

You know I was being facetious right? I thought the news at eleven would be a clue.

Even if you didn't it was hardly ad infintum or even ad nauseum.

Incidentally you are biased you compared the Chantry to the KKK

Modifié par paul165, 22 novembre 2012 - 09:35 .