373 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
No, I mean in-story religious bigotry. Like Lambert, Mere-death, and Alrik.

And really, it doesn't matter what the reason for bigotry is.
Is religiosu bigotry somehow worse than non-religious one?

Bigots wil be bigots.
And there will be bigots among the mages, there will be bigots among the templars. They are big groups, so you'll find all kinds.

[paul165]

"I'd say there's no real evidence either way, all we know was that prior to the idol Meredith was fairly oppressive and post idol she becomes more oppressive people can jump from point to point and make whatever they like up. As for resisting it its hard to say, dwarves made a thaig which looked like they revered the lyrium it's possible that they are more susceptible to it, given that the effect is subtle and encroaching on Meredith and fast and explosive on the dwarves would support that but doesn't necessary mean it to be true either.

Causality would suggest that the idol enhanced parts of her personality rather than creating new parts entirely (see Varric's and Bertram's greed being charged up thousandfold) but that's not to say it is true either."

True enough and an interesting answer I hadn't thought of potential racial differences in effect - might also explain why Hawke doesn't seem to be meaningfully affected.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...
He explicitly said that anti-mage bigotry of the Chantry was justified and necessary.

Apparently it's impossible to educate people honestly and rationally about the dangers of magic, you have to demonize the minority or else you're not doing it right.

Oh? Where did I say that?

And yes, it is possilble to aducate people about the danger of magic. This is why most people fear mages.
You keep blaiming the Chantry for all the ills of hte world (and teh mages) and in that, you are as bigoted as the most bigoted of templars.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Anyway, point is, Meredith got away with it under the current system. If there was a mage overseeing her, that might have helped. And if she was overseeing the mage, that would help curb abuse from there. Of course, this is theoretically what the first enchanter is supposed to be for.

Interesting how people think that putting a mage overseer will solve overseeing/abuse problems.
It won't. Not even a bit.

Unless you think mages can't also be abusers? After all, don't mages in Tevinter abuse their fellow mages?

Because you see, a mage abuser can use the UNAVOIDABLE holes in the system just as much as a templar abuser can.

So it doesn't really matter whom you put in chage - mages, templars, city guard, army, whomever - oversight problems will remain.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 22 novembre 2012 - 09:46 .

[Plaintiff]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
He explicitly said that anti-mage bigotry of the Chantry was justified and necessary.

Apparently it's impossible to educate people honestly and rationally about the dangers of magic, you have to demonize the minority or else you're not doing it right.

Oh? Where did I say that?

And yes, it is possilble to aducate people about the danger of magic. This is why most people fear mages.
You keep blaiming the Chantry for all the ills of hte world (and teh mages) and in that, you are as bigoted as the most bigoted of templars.

I blame it for the ills that it is clearly responsible for. I blame it for being hypocritical, which it is.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...

paul165 wrote...

We get it you hate Meredith news at eleven.

Yeah, the existence of this fictional videogame character drives me to white-hot tears of rage.

Gotta love how the 'rational' pro-templar debaters like to pile on ad hominem ad infinitum, but somehow I'm the one being 'biased' and now apparently emotional as well.

Well, given your displays of LOVELOVELOVELOVE for Anders and mages and HATEHATEHATE for the Chantry and templars, can you really blame us?

Your posts and answers are so emotionally charged, and your very selection of words tells a lot.


Frankly, at this point if there was a way to turn Anders into paste, I wouldn't be surprised to find you smearing said paste all over your body.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And yes, it is possilble to aducate people about the danger of magic. This is why most people fear mages.
You keep blaiming the Chantry for all the ills of hte world (and teh mages) and in that, you are as bigoted as the most bigoted of templars.

I blame it for the ills that it is clearly responsible for. I blame it for being hypocritical, which it is.

If you truly belive all that, then I have a bridge for Terabithia to sell you.

[Rawgrim]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
He explicitly said that anti-mage bigotry of the Chantry was justified and necessary.

Apparently it's impossible to educate people honestly and rationally about the dangers of magic, you have to demonize the minority or else you're not doing it right.

Oh? Where did I say that?

And yes, it is possilble to aducate people about the danger of magic. This is why most people fear mages.
You keep blaiming the Chantry for all the ills of hte world (and teh mages) and in that, you are as bigoted as the most bigoted of templars.

I blame it for the ills that it is clearly responsible for. I blame it for being hypocritical, which it is.

the pot calling the kettle black much?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Anyway, point is, Meredith got away with it under the current system. If there was a mage overseeing her, that might have helped. And if she was overseeing the mage, that would help curb abuse from there. Of course, this is theoretically what the first enchanter is supposed to be for.

Interesting how people think that putting a mage overseer will solve overseeing/abuse problems.
It won't. Not even a bit.

Unless you think mages can't also be abusers? After all, don't mages in Tevinter abuse their fellow mages?

Because you see, a mage abuser can use the UNAVOIDABLE holes in the system just as much as a templar abuser can.

So it doesn't really matter whom you put in chage - mages, templars, city guard, army, whomever - oversight problems will remain.

What I meant was that they oversee each other, and each has the power to veto the others actions. I thought I'd made that clear. Yes, there's holes in this system. That is unavoidable. What I'm trying to do is think of ways this could be minimized.

[Plaintiff]

Rawgrim wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
He explicitly said that anti-mage bigotry of the Chantry was justified and necessary.

Apparently it's impossible to educate people honestly and rationally about the dangers of magic, you have to demonize the minority or else you're not doing it right.

Oh? Where did I say that?

And yes, it is possilble to aducate people about the danger of magic. This is why most people fear mages.
You keep blaiming the Chantry for all the ills of hte world (and teh mages) and in that, you are as bigoted as the most bigoted of templars.

I blame it for the ills that it is clearly responsible for. I blame it for being hypocritical, which it is.

the pot calling the kettle black much?

If you can prove that I'm hypocritical, I'll freely admit it.

[Rawgrim]

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
He explicitly said that anti-mage bigotry of the Chantry was justified and necessary.

Apparently it's impossible to educate people honestly and rationally about the dangers of magic, you have to demonize the minority or else you're not doing it right.

Oh? Where did I say that?

And yes, it is possilble to aducate people about the danger of magic. This is why most people fear mages.
You keep blaiming the Chantry for all the ills of hte world (and teh mages) and in that, you are as bigoted as the most bigoted of templars.

I blame it for the ills that it is clearly responsible for. I blame it for being hypocritical, which it is.

the pot calling the kettle black much?

If you can prove that I'm hypocritical, I'll freely admit it.

Yes i can prove it. To everyone else but you.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
No, I mean in-story religious bigotry. Like Lambert, Mere-death, and Alrik.

And really, it doesn't matter what the reason for bigotry is.
Is religiosu bigotry somehow worse than non-religious one?

Bigots wil be bigots.
And there will be bigots among the mages, there will be bigots among the templars. They are big groups, so you'll find all kinds.

My proposal was to court the non-bigoted templars away, which will probably mean dropping/killing the bigoted mages. There. Problem solved, or at least delayed.

[Plaintiff]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Well, given your displays of LOVELOVELOVELOVE for Anders and mages and HATEHATEHATE for the Chantry and templars, can you really blame us?

Your posts and answers are so emotionally charged, and your very selection of words tells a lot.


Frankly, at this point if there was a way to turn Anders into paste, I wouldn't be surprised to find you smearing said paste all over your body.

Yeah, I dunno how to break this to you gently. It's a videogame. The people moving around inside the box are not real.

I believe Anders' actions are morally correct and logically sound. That does not mean I lean forward to lick my TV screen everytime the Chantry blows up.

[Plaintiff]

Rawgrim wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
He explicitly said that anti-mage bigotry of the Chantry was justified and necessary.

Apparently it's impossible to educate people honestly and rationally about the dangers of magic, you have to demonize the minority or else you're not doing it right.

Oh? Where did I say that?

And yes, it is possilble to aducate people about the danger of magic. This is why most people fear mages.
You keep blaiming the Chantry for all the ills of hte world (and teh mages) and in that, you are as bigoted as the most bigoted of templars.

I blame it for the ills that it is clearly responsible for. I blame it for being hypocritical, which it is.

the pot calling the kettle black much?

If you can prove that I'm hypocritical, I'll freely admit it.

Yes i can prove it. To everyone else but you.

How very convenient.

[Rawgrim]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Well, given your displays of LOVELOVELOVELOVE for Anders and mages and HATEHATEHATE for the Chantry and templars, can you really blame us?

Your posts and answers are so emotionally charged, and your very selection of words tells a lot.


Frankly, at this point if there was a way to turn Anders into paste, I wouldn't be surprised to find you smearing said paste all over your body.

Yeah, I dunno how to break this to you gently. It's a videogame. The people moving around inside the box are not real.

I believe Anders' actions are morally correct and logically sound. That does not mean I lean forward to lick my TV screen everytime the Chantry blows up.

So "enslaving" people is wrong, but killing innocents and starting a war that will lead to more inocent people being killed is morally correct.? There you go. Hypocritical.

[Plaintiff]

Rawgrim wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Well, given your displays of LOVELOVELOVELOVE for Anders and mages and HATEHATEHATE for the Chantry and templars, can you really blame us?

Your posts and answers are so emotionally charged, and your very selection of words tells a lot.


Frankly, at this point if there was a way to turn Anders into paste, I wouldn't be surprised to find you smearing said paste all over your body.

Yeah, I dunno how to break this to you gently. It's a videogame. The people moving around inside the box are not real.

I believe Anders' actions are morally correct and logically sound. That does not mean I lean forward to lick my TV screen everytime the Chantry blows up.

So "enslaving" people is wrong, but killing innocents and starting a war that will lead to more inocent people being killed is morally correct.? There you go. Hypocritical.

Point 1: Slavery and murder are two different things. I can condemn one and support the other without being hypocritical. I'd be a douchebag, but I wouldn't be hypocritical. Hypocrisy is when you hold others to moral standards that you don't apply to yourself.

Point 2: I don't believe that any 'innocents' died as a result of that explosion. You can carry on about the size of the explosion or the trajectory of the rubble or whatever, but until I see the cinematic of the mabari puppies being incinerated by violet flames, I'm going to assume the only people who died were Elthina and the templars who were shown to be in the building. And I think they deserved it.

Point 3: I suppose you unreservedly condemn the founding fathers of the United States for starting the War of Independence instead of caving to Britain's authority?

[Rawgrim]

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Well, given your displays of LOVELOVELOVELOVE for Anders and mages and HATEHATEHATE for the Chantry and templars, can you really blame us?

Your posts and answers are so emotionally charged, and your very selection of words tells a lot.


Frankly, at this point if there was a way to turn Anders into paste, I wouldn't be surprised to find you smearing said paste all over your body.

Yeah, I dunno how to break this to you gently. It's a videogame. The people moving around inside the box are not real.

I believe Anders' actions are morally correct and logically sound. That does not mean I lean forward to lick my TV screen everytime the Chantry blows up.

So "enslaving" people is wrong, but killing innocents and starting a war that will lead to more inocent people being killed is morally correct.? There you go. Hypocritical.

Point 1: Slavery and murder are two different things. I can condemn one and support the other without being hypocritical. I'd be a douchebag, but I wouldn't be hypocritical. Hypocrisy is when you hold others to moral standards that you don't apply to yourself.

Point 2: I don't believe that any 'innocents' died as a result of that explosion. You can carry on about the size of the explosion or the trajectory of the rubble or whatever, but until I see the cinematic of the mabari puppies being incinerated by violet flames, I'm going to assume the only people who died were Elthina and the templars who were shown to be in the building. And I think they deserved it.

Point 3: I suppose you unreservedly condemn the founding fathers of the United States for starting the War of Independence instead of caving to Britain's authority?

1. What you said was hypocritical. End of story.

2. Elthina didn`t do anything wrong towards anyone in the entire game. Even Anders, at one point, agrees that she isn`t bad at all. Templars, and lots of other sisters were in the building. Sebastian would have been too, but wasn`t due to plot reasons.

3. The founding fathers didn`t get posessed by demons every day. Nor did they resort to blood magic and turn ape**** in the streets. So you can`t really compare it.

[Plaintiff]

Rawgrim wrote...
1. What you said was hypocritical. End of story.

You don't know what 'hypocritical' actually means.

2. Elthina didn`t do anything wrong towards anyone in the entire game.

She didn't rein in Meredith, like she should've and could've 

Even Anders, at one point, agrees that she isn`t bad at all.

Well, Anders isn't always right. 

Templars, and lots of other sisters were in the building.

Didn't see 'em. 

Sebastian would have been too, but wasn`t due to plot reasons.

And wasn't that a shame. He's irritating as ****.

3. The founding fathers didn`t get posessed by demons every day. Nor did they resort to blood magic and turn ape**** in the streets. So you can`t really compare it.

Nor do mages, and what does that have to do with the morality of war? This is completely irrelevent to your previous point.

Not to mention, saying that Anders "started the war" is a gross oversimplification of the issue. His actions did not occur in a vaccuum. Meredith could've chosen not to annull the circle for no reason, but she didn't. Elthina could've done her job, but she didn't. Lord Seeker Lambert could've chosen not to initiate violence, but he didn't. The mages could've voted not to secede, but they didn't.

Lots of different choices made by lots of different people.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
What I meant was that they oversee each other, and each has the power to veto the others actions. I thought I'd made that clear. Yes, there's holes in this system. That is unavoidable. What I'm trying to do is think of ways this could be minimized.

If you want efficiency, you want a clear chain of command.
Vetos are for councils and senates.

For a military-style unit, two leaders don't sound efficient. Especially if they are rivas.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...
Yeah, I dunno how to break this to you gently. It's a videogame. The people moving around inside the box are not real.

I believe Anders' actions are morally correct and logically sound. That does not mean I lean forward to lick my TV screen everytime the Chantry blows up.

Then start acting that way.

The rethoric you use, the zeal of your approach - nothing of it sez "temepred, reasoned approach".

And to make it even more apprent, you openly and cleary state (and show) your hatered for the templars and the Chantry. Interestingly enough, none of us templar supporters here hate mages.

So when you say you're not biased...Yeah, no one is buying it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...
Point 2: I don't believe that any 'innocents' died as a result of that explosion. You can carry on about the size of the explosion or the trajectory of the rubble or whatever, but until I see the cinematic of the mabari puppies being incinerated by violet flames, I'm going to assume the only people who died were Elthina and the templars who were shown to be in the building. And I think they deserved it.

Multiple houses caught fire.
Large debir was rainign in all direction. It WAS in the cinematic.

To assume no innocents were killed is the height of self-dellusion. Hell, even Anders admits innocents died.

[Plaintiff]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Yeah, I dunno how to break this to you gently. It's a videogame. The people moving around inside the box are not real.

I believe Anders' actions are morally correct and logically sound. That does not mean I lean forward to lick my TV screen everytime the Chantry blows up.

Then start acting that way.

The rethoric you use, the zeal of your approach - nothing of it sez "temepred, reasoned approach".

And to make it even more apprent, you openly and cleary state (and show) your hatered for the templars and the Chantry. Interestingly enough, none of us templar supporters here hate mages.

So when you say you're not biased...Yeah, no one is buying it.

I never once used the word 'hate', except to say that the Chantry perpetuates it through its religious dogma.

Go ahead. Search this entire thread. I dare you.

[Rawgrim]

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...
1. What you said was hypocritical. End of story.

You don't know what 'hypocritical' actually means.

Yes I do. You give me examples of it constantly.

2. Elthina didn`t do anything wrong towards anyone in the entire game.

She didn't rein in Meredith, like she should've and could've 

She did rein her in when she and Orsino were arguing. Missed that did you?

Even Anders, at one point, agrees that she isn`t bad at all.

Well, Anders isn't always right. 

Not according to you. This is the first time I hear it from you, though.

Templars, and lots of other sisters were in the building.

Didn't see 'em. 

And yet you said earlier that you assumed the same people you saw in there earlier, were in the Chantry when it blew up...

Sebastian would have been too, but wasn`t due to plot reasons.

And wasn't that a shame. He's irritating as ****.

Being irritating means you deserve to die?

3. The founding fathers didn`t get posessed by demons every day. Nor did they resort to blood magic and turn ape**** in the streets. So you can`t really compare it.

Nor do mages, and what does that have to do with the morality of war? This is completely irrelevent to your previous point.

Not to mention, saying that Anders "started the war" is a gross oversimplification of the issue. His actions did not occur in a vaccuum. Meredith could've chosen not to annull the circle for no reason, but she didn't. Elthina could've done her job, but she didn't. Lord Seeker Lambert could've chosen not to initiate violence, but he didn't. The mages could've voted not to secede, but they didn't.


Really? I ran into gangs of bloodmages and dominated people attacking me in the streets at night. Another one killed Hawke`s mom, and summoned demons to defend him. This fellow was aided by Orsino, I might add. around 50 percent of the fights in the game were vs bloodmages or abominations.

After Anders blew up the chantry, the war started. Simple as that.

Lord Seeker Lambert did stuff in a book. Doesn`t follow the same canon as the games.

Lots of different choices made by lots of different people.

[Razzandi]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Yeah, I dunno how to break this to you gently. It's a videogame. The people moving around inside the box are not real.

I believe Anders' actions are morally correct and logically sound. That does not mean I lean forward to lick my TV screen everytime the Chantry blows up.

Then start acting that way.

The rethoric you use, the zeal of your approach - nothing of it sez "temepred, reasoned approach".

And to make it even more apprent, you openly and cleary state (and show) your hatered for the templars and the Chantry. Interestingly enough, none of us templar supporters here hate mages.

So when you say you're not biased...Yeah, no one is buying it.

Valid point Lotion, I'm with you on this one.  Believe it or not, I used to support the mages, but after many of these threads (and Plaintiff in particular) I've become a staunch Templar supporter myself.

It's rather funny that most of those who support the Templars admit that the current system is broken and needs revision...but then we read the stories about how things used to be (and currently ARE) in the Tevinter Imperium and well...even the current situation is a hell of a lot better than lettinga large number of walking bazooka's run free without any guidance, training, or supervision.

[Herr Uhl]

Razzandi wrote...

but then we read the stories about how things used to be (and currently ARE) in the Tevinter Imperium and well...even the current situation is a hell of a lot better than lettinga large number of walking bazooka's run free without any guidance, training, or supervision.

They only get to run around with bazookas if they're in the service of a magister or a magister themselves. They have circles there too.