373 réponses à ce sujet

[Vexille]

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't have any problem with Bioware giving you the opportunity to express more wrong opinions in-game.

All your arguments about that bit got owned completely in another thread yesterday, if i remember correctly. Now you are just arguing for the sake of it.

I don't understand. In what respect was I "owned"? I have yet to see a logical counterpoint to any argument I've made on this forum ever.

you can lead a horse to water...

[Maria Caliban]

Navasha wrote...

In my own personal opinion, the problem with trying to justify a pro-templar position is that much of it is unjustifiable.

Solid arguments can be made for any number of bad opinions. Poor arguments can be made for good opinions.

That you don't find the Templar position right or compelling has nothing to do with this thread.

[Warden661]

Since DA3 is completely centered around this mage v Templar issue, I feel that they're going to need to broaden the arguements for both sides.

I do agree though. I think that Templar's didn't get their fair share of arguing points in DA2.

[SeptimusMagistos]

I support this. But then I always support being able to argue philosophical positions in games. I hope that both pro-mage and pro-Templar protagonists are able to make as many arguments as possible.

[Plaintiff]

Vexille wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't have any problem with Bioware giving you the opportunity to express more wrong opinions in-game.

All your arguments about that bit got owned completely in another thread yesterday, if i remember correctly. Now you are just arguing for the sake of it.

I don't understand. In what respect was I "owned"? I have yet to see a logical counterpoint to any argument I've made on this forum ever.

you can lead a horse to water...

You can, but you haven't.

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

I'm generally not pro-Templar myself. I always save pro-Templar/pro-Chantry characters for later playthroughs. The one time I decided to go through with the Rite of Annulment was as my human mage Helgrim, and that was not motivated by love of the Chantry but because he's a chaotic evil sociopath who hated his life in the Circle and resented the other mages there.

That said, I favour what OP is asking for because I prefer not to have my characters opinions, especially on such a divisive issue as mages vs Templars decided for me by the writers. Does anyone remember in KOTOR II how we had conversation choices where we could call ourselves Jedi, deny being Jedi, or get angry or threaten NPCs for daring to call us Jedi? Remember how we could speak favourably about the Order and the Rebublic or slag both off?

Modifié par The Teryn of Whatever, 21 novembre 2012 - 04:36 .

[thesnake777]

Well said OP.
I did feel that the arguments hawke would make for siding with the templars were extremely limited. Especially given the many examples throughout the games lore of why the templars would have the stance they do. I do hope we get the chance to bring real points out if we decide to support the templars about their viewpoints.

[Sharn01]

Zardoc wrote...

Navasha wrote...

Zardoc wrote...

Navasha wrote...

-snip  

First of all, the Circles are hardly concentration camps. Kirkwall had the worst of all Circles, and even then it only became bad when Meredith started cracking.

Second, there are more than enough reasons for taking children with magical abilities away from their parents. For one, the Circle offers them a safe haven, both from demons who would prey on their unsupecting minds aswell as more mundane threats, like their own parents/villagers/neighbours/etc, afraid of their abilities (justified or not). 

Again, I disagree.   A confined place where you are forcibly placed and not allowed to leave is a prison.   No matter if they call it a school, circle, etc.    I can see no reason to ever imprison an innocent person just because they have unusual abilities. 

As for abducting children to "protect" them.   Nope, not buying that argument either.   The circle doesn't protect them from demons.   In fact, they offer them up to the demons in the harrowing without ever telling them what they will face.   Only those smart enough or strong enough to realize the trickery manage to survive, the rest are killed.   Doesn't sound like protection to me.

Those "unusual abilities" make them a threat to their families, themselves and anyone around them, unless they are properly trained. They have powers they cannot control or even understand, and they are like a beacon for demons. That is why the Circles exist, and that is why children with magical abilities need to be brought there.

And the Circle DOES protect them from demons. They teach them how to use their abilities, teach them about demons, the Fade, everything they need to know to protect themselves. And the Harrowing exists for the sole reason of weeding out the weak and the stupid. A mage who is too weak to protect himself from a demon, or too stupid to fall for their tricks and in turn gets possessed, turning him into an abomination capable of wreaking unimaginable havoc, is a threat which has to be dealt with.

Your wrong actually, I suggest you play the mage origin again.  They are thrust unprepared into the fade to face a demon, they are not given any advance information to help with the confrontation and are banned from speaking about it afterwards.  Gregoire actually cuts off Irving for telling the young mage that not everything is what it seems in the fade because he feels that is too much information for the apprentice.

[EmperorSahlertz]

You realize that in the years prior to the Harrowing the apprentices have been taught all they need to know about demons and magic, right?

[Sharn01]

Magic yes, there are no examples in either game of apprentice mages given information to help them face and fend off demon's, they seem to have the same knowledge of demons as any educated member of society has.

[Sable Rhapsody]

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...
Does anyone remember in KOTOR II how we had conversation choices where we could call ourselves Jedi, deny being Jedi, or get angry or threaten NPCs for daring to call us Jedi? Remember how we could speak favourably about the Order and the Rebublic or slag both off?

I liked that as well.  To be fair, KOTOR II was done by Obsidian, and for all their problems with polish and mechanics, they're pretty good in most of their games about offering a lot of roleplaying flexibility for the PC.

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You realize that in the years prior to the Harrowing the apprentices have been taught all they need to know about demons and magic, right?

And your evidence is...?

[xsdob]

MisterJB produces his own ideas of reform that were good, hes not saying mages should be slaves. I myself find the current state of the cricles to be gilded prisions, where they arent allowed to leave, even temporarily, under any circumstances outside of war and visitors are forbidden, which I find a questionable decision for the chantry to enforce. The mages need training, that is a fact. If they were left alone with no guidance that would lead to more problems than good, so I feel the circle is good, it just needs sligjt reform.


I hope for arguments against apostate mages that dont just amount to "possession is bad". Argumebts that bring up that the circles teach mages how to use their powers without killing eachother. At the same time, I hope I am allowed to tell the chantry they need to change their ways a bit and that they are also to blame for this.

What I dont want is to be forced to choose between total mage anarchy or a chantry dictatorship and facism.

[Dabrikishaw]

I imagine the lack of Pro-Templar arguments is due to the simple fact that In-universe, the Templars are already seen as in the right by the majority of people in Thedas.

[labargegrrrl]

i think part of the reason pro-temps or even pro-circle people aren't given a lot of great logical arguments in da2, was because many of them had previously well articulated in dao. wynn actually made quite a few, if you talked with her about it.

that, and all the pro-temp people NEEDED in da2 was to point at the latest psychotic situation involving magic. or even those situations when the NICEST of mages were involved and there was negative fallout. not all involving demons. some not even involving magic proper.

things like that pretty much argued the pro-temp position for them, without a lot of witty verbal theorizing.

plus, they're warriors. not exactly wordsy people.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

There is no point to argue anymore. The time of argument has long past due. Now it's time for action. The war has already started. So lets the pro templars and pro mages kill each other while my character just sit down and enjoy the show. I would love to see both factions destroyed in the end. DA 2 didn't give me that satisfaction. It would be nice if DA 3 would make that happen.But I doubt it. It's more likely the war is set up to free the mages from any legal restriction and give them back their right to live among men for the sake of future PC mages. BioWare has realize that it was a mistake to set up law that confine mages through the chantry in DAO. They couldn't deal with PC mages' freedom and consequences issue as they intended in the first place. Let's face it, apostate PC mages running around without any implication as if they're as free as the warrior and rogue is silly..  

After what had happen, I now believe Thedas would better off without the annoying pesky mages, the chantry and the templars.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 21 novembre 2012 - 07:20 .

[Statulos]

Wait a minute... Mages being slaves, oppressed and whatnot? Let´s asume Thedas is basicaly a Middle Ages tech society, nothing remotely close to industrial age.

Well, most of the population are going to be pesants and in a society where food production is not industrialized and where feudalism in the norm in one way or another, the average perso does not enjoy a standard of living remotely close to what mages have.

Templars being harsh? Yeah sure, just like feudal lords are harsher on serfs...

[AppealToReason]

I agree. I would like to see the pro templar thing be more than "You'll be possessed and kill all the people!" That is obviously an option but why not have a straight up distrust option because you're plain old racist against mages because you are. Like a "You're not even a real person!" option kind of thing.

Kind of like how pro mage was "They can be trusted" or "Magic ain't that bad bro. Chill"

[EmperorSahlertz]

Plaintiff wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You realize that in the years prior to the Harrowing the apprentices have been taught all they need to know about demons and magic, right?

And your evidence is...?

The fact that an apprentice has full access to a library full of books detailing that very subject?..... How can so many people miss that?

[xsdob]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You realize that in the years prior to the Harrowing the apprentices have been taught all they need to know about demons and magic, right?

And your evidence is...?

The fact that an apprentice has full access to a library full of books detailing that very subject?..... How can so many people miss that?

There is no book on the harrowing, the harrowing is a trail of the persons character and is different for each mage. It is actually forbidden to tell them any information outside of the fact that they'll go into the fade, since it might lead to mages preparing for it and not showing an accurate result for when they actually get tempted by demons.

It's cruel, it's designed to kill you, and it's the worlds hardest final exam, for which you are forbidden from studying for outside of "demons are bad", you aren't told what they look like or what they might do, but just know there are 5 kinds and they are all bad.

And you know what? It's completly neccisary to ensure that mages are most likley to not fall to corruption or temptation from demons, and that they will be able to be trusted with more powerful magic. It's not a 100% garuntee, but it is a trail by fire that does provide the most likley answer.

Here;s the codex entry for the harrowing.

"Among apprentices of the Circle, nothing is regarded with more fear than
the Harrowing. Little is known about this rite of passage, and that
alone would be cause for dread. But it is well understood that only
those apprentices who pass this trial are ever seen again. They return
as full members of the Circle of Magi.
Of those who fail, nothing is known. Perhaps they are sent away in
disgrace. Perhaps they are killed on the spot. I heard one patently
ridiculous rumor among the Circle at Rivain,
which claimed that failed apprentices were transformed into pigs,
fattened up, and served at dinner to the senior enchanters. But I could
find no evidence that the Rivaini Circle ate any particular quantity of
pork."

http://dragonage.wik...:_The_Harrowing

Modifié par xsdob, 21 novembre 2012 - 08:35 .

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You realize that in the years prior to the Harrowing the apprentices have been taught all they need to know about demons and magic, right?

And your evidence is...?

The fact that an apprentice has full access to a library full of books detailing that very subject?..... How can so many people miss that?

Then why does Greagoir prevent Irving from giving the mage warden "too much information" about the Fade and demons, if that knowledge is readily accessible and should be common? What is the point of keeping the Harrowing a secret at all? If there are so many books about the Fade, then they must mention the Harrowing, and if mage apprentices can learn about the practice through independent study, then how is it not common knowledge?

The only possible way to restrict knowledge about the Harrowing is to restrict knowledge about the Fade and Demons generally, and so the only logical conclusion to make is that apparentices are being sent in completely blind.

And all of that aside, the game explicitly tells you that that is what's happening.

[Liamv2]

More options is never a bad thing

[Plaintiff]

xsdob wrote...
And you know what? It's completly neccisary to ensure that mages are most likley to not fall to corruption or temptation from demons, and that they will be able to be trusted with more powerful magic. It's not a 100% garuntee, but it is a trail by fire that does provide the most likley answer.

Or they could... you know, train the mages to resist demons, since it's a skill like any other, and requires practice in order to become proficient.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Plaintiff wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You realize that in the years prior to the Harrowing the apprentices have been taught all they need to know about demons and magic, right?

And your evidence is...?

The fact that an apprentice has full access to a library full of books detailing that very subject?..... How can so many people miss that?

Then why does Greagoir prevent Irving from giving the mage warden "too much information" about the Fade and demons, if that knowledge is readily accessible and should be common? What is the point of keeping the Harrowing a secret at all? If there are so many books about the Fade, then they must mention the Harrowing, and if mage apprentices can learn about the practice through independent study, then how is it not common knowledge?

The only possible way to restrict knowledge about the Harrowing is to restrict knowledge about the Fade and Demons generally, and so the only logical conclusion to make is that apparentices are being sent in completely blind.

And all of that aside, the game explicitly tells you that that is what's happening.

Greagoir prevents Irving from revealing what the Harrowing was about. The apprentice still knows what a demon is, and has had amble oppertunity to study them. And no, the best way to restrict knowledge of the Harrowing, is to simply tell the mages not to speak of it with the apprentices.
The Harrowing is not common knowledge because the mages do not speak of it with the apprentices. Demons are however common knowledge, since even before they take their Harrowing, some apprentices may be plagued by them. The library is full of books concerning the very subjcet of demons, so it is useless to discuss this matter. Apprentices are obviously taught about, or at the very least, have amble oppertunity to research on their own, the subject of demons and the Fade.

[Chagrinned Goat]

Plaintiff wrote...
If there are so many books about the Fade, then they must mention the Harrowing, and if mage apprentices can learn about the practice through independent study, then how is it not common knowledge?

The only possible way to restrict knowledge about the Harrowing is to restrict knowledge about the Fade and Demons generally, and so the only logical conclusion to make is that apparentices are being sent in completely blind.

I'm pretty sure that what's kept quiet is that the Harrowing involves meeting a demon, not information about demons at all. There wouldn't be any mention of the Harrowing in books, because why would there be? The information could be about demons and how to combat them without mentioning that one specific ritual.

Greagoir could cut off Irving simply because that information at that time would give away the nature of the test, when the idea is for the apprentice to actually figure out what's going on for themselves and to escape it. I don't see why that has to mean that the apprentices are given no information about demons whatsoever. After all, if a mage is specifically steeling themselves for an encounter with a demon, that doesn't show how they would fare in circumstances where they are caught off guard.

Modifié par Chagrinned Goat, 21 novembre 2012 - 09:01 .