373 réponses à ce sujet

[CaptainBlackGold]

While I agree with the OP's position (more opportunities to role play different characters and to investigate deeper issues in-game are always desirable), I suspect that the problem is not the writers, but whatever design decisions are made for the game.

DA2 to me, seemed to want to appeal to a new audience, those who play games more for the action, rather than the story. Therefore, can't have too many deep, philosophical or moral issues to discuss, because that means we aren't killing things in spectacular ways!

The writers have shown over and over again, that they are witty, intelligent, and sometimes even deep thinkers on any number of issues. Given the opportunity, they can and have created deep, fascinating characters that we grow to love (or hate). But they have to be given the freedom to bring these things into the game by those "upstairs."

So I hope that in DA3 we get multiple ways to interact with various characters and situations as well as ask various questions and interact with the answers. I would love to be able to discuss the Qunari religion in more detail. Or talk with a "spirit/demon" about their thoughts on the Maker and not have to rely on just a tidbit here, an off the cuff comment there, etc.

[xsdob]

Plaintiff wrote...

xsdob wrote...
And you know what? It's completly neccisary to ensure that mages are most likley to not fall to corruption or temptation from demons, and that they will be able to be trusted with more powerful magic. It's not a 100% garuntee, but it is a trail by fire that does provide the most likley answer.

Or they could... you know, train the mages to resist demons, since it's a skill like any other, and requires practice in order to become proficient.

And how do you propose they train them if they never meet a demon?  Hold mock demon training sessions where a mage throws a sheet over his head and pretends to be a pride demon offering them power?

No, you gotta make them confront the thing they need to resist and prove that they can, in fact, resist them. Otherwise when they end up encountering the demons in their dreams in a real scenario they will not be able to actually resist. In fact, that will be even more dangerous than the harrowing, becaseu at least the harrowing can keep the mage from slaughtering his brothers and sisters should he fail to resist.

The harrowing is given only to mages who are deemed ready to do so, the best out of the class, the ones who show the most ability to do so. Otherwise most don't have enough magical power to be attractive for demons, or are too unstable to be able to take the harrowing.

It's like taking a drivers test, there's only so long you can teach and train them with writen test until you need to make them go on the road and prove they can do it.

Modifié par xsdob, 21 novembre 2012 - 09:26 .

[Plaintiff]

xsdob wrote...
And how do you propose they train them if they never meet a demon?  Hold mock demon training sessions where a mage throws a sheet over his head and pretends to be a pride demon offering them power?

Obviously they need to study the theory first, and then meet demons prior to the Harrowing. In controlled conditions, with supervision.

No, you gotta make them confront the thing they need to resist and prove that they can, in fact, resist them.

But the Harrowing doesn't prove that at all. The mages are not applying learned skills, it's dumb luck. 

Otherwise when they end up encountering the demons in their dreams in a real scenario they will not be able to actually resist. In fact, that will be even more dangerous than the harrowing, becaseu at least the harrowing can keep the mage from slaughtering his brothers and sisters should he fail to resist.

The Harrowing doesn't fix this issue. Surviving a demon encounter one time by sheer luck doesn't mean you'll be able to do it again later. Wynne was a senior enchanter and she fell prey to a sloth demon easily.

The harrowing is given only to mages who are deemed ready to do so, the best out of the class, the ones who show the most ability to do so. Otherwise most don't have enough magical power to be attractive for demons, or are too unstable to be able to take the harrowing.

What criteria must a mage fulfill to be deemed "ready" for the Harrowing. How do they show this ability that they're not using? They've not been trained or even introduced to the concept of warding off demons prior to the Harrowing.

It's like taking a drivers test, there's only so long you can teach and train them with writen test until you need to make them go on the road and prove they can do it.

Exactly. They have to be taught and trained, which the mages are not. Spellcasting ability is clearly not an indicator of mental fortitude. They are separate faculties and need to be developed separately.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 21 novembre 2012 - 09:42 .

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff: It's obvious that a Circle created for the purpose of controlling magic and warding off demons is going to teach their initiates the theory behind it as well as self defense spells before deeming that any of them are ready for the Harrowing. Just because we don't see Senior Enchanters going: "If a spirit, regardless of physical form, ask for a way out of the Fade, back the f*ck away. That's a demon," doesn't mean these things are not taught.

[xsdob]

Here;s what your not getting, they are already trained before taking the harrowing. They are taught about demons, demon types and strengths as well as weaknesses, before they are ever taken to take the harrowing.

They don't realize what the harrowing is, or that they have been taught in their studies what to be prepared for without realizing it, such as knowledge about the fade and the fact that demons will tempt you to try and steal your body in the fade. This is common knowledge, knowledge that the ritual itself is sending mages into the fade to have them resist temptation, is not.

It's probably how they know a mage is most likely ready, when they show knowledge in the class about demons and probably demonstrate a drive or exceptional willpower of some kind.

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff: It's obvious that a Circle created for the purpose of controlling magic and warding off demons is going to teach their initiates the theory behind it as well as self defense spells before deeming that any of them are ready for the Harrowing. Just because we don't see Senior Enchanters going: "If a spirit, regardless of physical form, ask for a way out of the Fade, back the f*ck away. That's a demon," doesn't mean these things are not taught.

It's not obvious at all. The information isn't present in the game. I'm not going to assume that a clear problem has just been "dealt with".

Even if it were so, that's still no rational reason to keep the Harrowing a secret. In every other area of education, students are informed of the broad content of final exams well ahead of time, and the exams do not introduce concepts that the students have not been able to practice beforehand. We do not throw our firemen and paramedics into real emergency situations without training, just to see if they can "handle it".

[xsdob]

Plaintiff wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff: It's obvious that a Circle created for the purpose of controlling magic and warding off demons is going to teach their initiates the theory behind it as well as self defense spells before deeming that any of them are ready for the Harrowing. Just because we don't see Senior Enchanters going: "If a spirit, regardless of physical form, ask for a way out of the Fade, back the f*ck away. That's a demon," doesn't mean these things are not taught.

It's not obvious at all. The information isn't present in the game. I'm not going to assume that a clear problem has just been "dealt with".

Even if it were so, that's still no rational reason to keep the Harrowing a secret. In every other area of education, students are informed of the broad content of final exams well ahead of time, and the exams do not introduce concepts that the students have not been able to practice beforehand. We do not throw our firemen and paramedics into real emergency situations without training, just to see if they can "handle it".

Well, once agian, it really is like a drivers test. They are taught what might happen on the road, but there are no garuntee's as to what will happen once they get on the road and drive. Similarly, they can't control what the demons will do in the fade, whether they will be pride demons, simply anger demons, lust demons, sloth, greed, or what forms the demons will take. All of those are unknown factors that the students must be prepared to face becase it is what they will face every time they sleep and enter the fade.

Another point, is that there is studying for a test, and than studying the answers for a test. If people know the harrowing is just a confrontation with a demon, they will most likley cheat on such a trial. They will become arrogant and cocky that they know what to expect, which means when the demon throws a curve ball to catch them off guard, they'll be more likley to fall for it since it will not be what they expected and prepared exclusivley for.

Do you kinda see what I'm getting at here?

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
It's not obvious at all. The information isn't present in the game. I'm not going to assume that a clear problem has just been "dealt with".

It is obvious. Both the mages and the templars have a vetter interest in mages surviving the Harrowing. If nothing else because they are valuable resources and because no one wants an Abomination on the loose.
If you want to convince me that a biology class is not teaching biology, the burden of proof fails on you, not the other way around.

Even if it were so, that's still no rational reason to keep the Harrowing a secret. In every other area of education, students are informed of the broad content of final exams well ahead of time, and the exams do not introduce concepts that the students have not been able to practice beforehand. We do not throw our firemen and paramedics into real emergency situations without training, just to see if they can "handle it".

That's a different, and valid, issue alltogether. However, I would prefer it would be discussed elsewhere.

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...
It is obvious. Both the mages and the templars have a vetter interest in mages surviving the Harrowing. If nothing else because they are valuable resources and because no one wants an Abomination on the loose.
If you want to convince me that a biology class is not teaching biology, the burden of proof fails on you, not the other way around.

Well, in this metaphor, the "biology class" has not yet been shown to exist. If someone shows me the Circle curriculum and the timeslot for "Demonology: study of fade denizens and effective defense strategies", then I'll concede the issue.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Plaintiff wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
It is obvious. Both the mages and the templars have a vetter interest in mages surviving the Harrowing. If nothing else because they are valuable resources and because no one wants an Abomination on the loose.
If you want to convince me that a biology class is not teaching biology, the burden of proof fails on you, not the other way around.

Well, in this metaphor, the "biology class" has not yet been shown to exist. If someone shows me the Circle curriculum and the timeslot for "Demonology: study of fade denizens and effective defense strategies", then I'll concede the issue.

Again: Full access to library containing numerous tomes on the subject. Obviously they are allowed to research and even being taught about demons.

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
It is obvious. Both the mages and the templars have a vetter interest in mages surviving the Harrowing. If nothing else because they are valuable resources and because no one wants an Abomination on the loose.
If you want to convince me that a biology class is not teaching biology, the burden of proof fails on you, not the other way around.

Well, in this metaphor, the "biology class" has not yet been shown to exist. If someone shows me the Circle curriculum and the timeslot for "Demonology: study of fade denizens and effective defense strategies", then I'll concede the issue.

Again: Full access to library containing numerous tomes on the subject. Obviously they are allowed to research and even being taught about demons.

Do you have the title of such a text?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Plaintiff wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
It is obvious. Both the mages and the templars have a vetter interest in mages surviving the Harrowing. If nothing else because they are valuable resources and because no one wants an Abomination on the loose.
If you want to convince me that a biology class is not teaching biology, the burden of proof fails on you, not the other way around.

Well, in this metaphor, the "biology class" has not yet been shown to exist. If someone shows me the Circle curriculum and the timeslot for "Demonology: study of fade denizens and effective defense strategies", then I'll concede the issue.

Again: Full access to library containing numerous tomes on the subject. Obviously they are allowed to research and even being taught about demons.

Do you have the title of such a text?

The entire Summoning Sciences should be proof enough that Apprentices are allowed to read tomes concering the subject of spirits and demons, and are even trained in the summoning of basic weak spirits. Obviously they are allowed to connect with the Fade during their trainning.

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...
Does anyone remember in KOTOR II how we had conversation choices where we could call ourselves Jedi, deny being Jedi, or get angry or threaten NPCs for daring to call us Jedi? Remember how we could speak favourably about the Order and the Rebublic or slag both off?

I liked that as well.  To be fair, KOTOR II was done by Obsidian, and for all their problems with polish and mechanics, they're pretty good in most of their games about offering a lot of roleplaying flexibility for the PC.

Indeed it was by Obsidian. Nevertheless I think BioWare could take a cue from that game, incomplete and rough though it was.

[MisterJB]

Navasha wrote...

In my own personal opinion, the problem with trying to justify a pro-templar position is that much of it is unjustifiable.

If you don't find the arguments made by Pro-Templars that's fine. I would certainly not expect to change Anders' mind through debate.
However, it irks me to no end that I can come up with answers that I find compelling to his arguments but Hawke is not allowed to debate him, choosing instead to sit silently while he raves.

[Xilizhra]

However, it irks me to no end that I can come up with answers that I find compelling to his arguments but Hawke is not allowed to debate him, choosing instead to sit silently while he raves.

And I can't do that for Fenris or Meredith, and little for Cullen. DA2 isn't a Roman forum. If you want to add more arguments for DA3, fine, but that opens up whole new cans of worms about whose side Bioware would write the better arguments for.

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...

However, it irks me to no end that I can come up with answers that I find compelling to his arguments but Hawke is not allowed to debate him, choosing instead to sit silently while he raves.

And I can't do that for Fenris or Meredith, and little for Cullen. DA2 isn't a Roman forum. If you want to add more arguments for DA3, fine, but that opens up whole new cans of worms about whose side Bioware would write the better arguments for.

Why should Bioware write better arguments for one side? They could write more arguments from both sides (and there are plenly already discussed here in the forums that aren't present in-game), without favoring one side over the other.

[esper]

xsdob wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff: It's obvious that a Circle created for the purpose of controlling magic and warding off demons is going to teach their initiates the theory behind it as well as self defense spells before deeming that any of them are ready for the Harrowing. Just because we don't see Senior Enchanters going: "If a spirit, regardless of physical form, ask for a way out of the Fade, back the f*ck away. That's a demon," doesn't mean these things are not taught.

It's not obvious at all. The information isn't present in the game. I'm not going to assume that a clear problem has just been "dealt with".

Even if it were so, that's still no rational reason to keep the Harrowing a secret. In every other area of education, students are informed of the broad content of final exams well ahead of time, and the exams do not introduce concepts that the students have not been able to practice beforehand. We do not throw our firemen and paramedics into real emergency situations without training, just to see if they can "handle it".

Well, once agian, it really is like a drivers test. They are taught what might happen on the road, but there are no garuntee's as to what will happen once they get on the road and drive. Similarly, they can't control what the demons will do in the fade, whether they will be pride demons, simply anger demons, lust demons, sloth, greed, or what forms the demons will take. All of those are unknown factors that the students must be prepared to face becase it is what they will face every time they sleep and enter the fade.

Another point, is that there is studying for a test, and than studying the answers for a test. If people know the harrowing is just a confrontation with a demon, they will most likley cheat on such a trial. They will become arrogant and cocky that they know what to expect, which means when the demon throws a curve ball to catch them off guard, they'll be more likley to fall for it since it will not be what they expected and prepared exclusivley for.

Do you kinda see what I'm getting at here?

I have to say I don't know what school you took your licence in, but I would not want to take that licence. In my country licence taking is the following way.

First a theoretical studies and examination, these studies including warning off typical dangers, learning the meaning off sign and rules. And that is  beside elemental school feature a lot of the same in general education (At least in the danger and sign department). This would be equal to study the theory of Fades and Demons and might or might not be present in the Circles.

Then a pratical study with a licenced teacher where s/he drives with the student, first on practice course and then in the real traffic with the teacher still in the car, to give advice plus the car might have an extra set of brakes at the teacher place, I am not sure about that. This step, which is very important, is completely missing from the circle system.

Then and first then comes the exmanition which is done with a student, together with a policeman, in the traffic to see if they can act as they should in the student pass they are allowed to drive a car, if they fail they have to go back to step two.

The Harrowwing is equal tp perhaps skipping step one, saying step to is irrellevnt because we never no what can happen in the traffic and step three being morphed into the student being placed alone in the car, place them on the highway and then purposely summoning a ghost driver (ie the demon) to see if they have the reflexes to avoid the car in the wrong lane. If they fail both student and ghost driver is death, if they succeeded they have proved nothing other than being extremely lucky, and have not learned how to navigate the traffic somewhat sensible.

Modifié par esper, 21 novembre 2012 - 01:42 .

[Wulfram]

I think it's generally a problem when you're not given the right arguments for your side of a debate. Of course, it's quite hard for the writers to make every possible argument available in any at all complex issue.

Personally I had more problems with the Qunari - too often opposition to them could only be framed as an intolerant opposition to "heretics", without the ability to be against them out of abhorrence for many of the things they stand for.

[esper]

Wulfram wrote...

I think it's generally a problem when you're not given the right arguments for your side of a debate. Of course, it's quite hard for the writers to make every possible argument available in any at all complex issue.

Personally I had more problems with the Qunari - too often opposition to them could only be framed as an intolerant opposition to "heretics", without the ability to be against them out of abhorrence for many of the things they stand for.

I think the problem is that the dialogs/debates would be quite long and (as we see on the forum) would be going back and forth for a long time.

That said more option for any side would be good, if they have the zots to put it in.

[Aolbain]

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't have any problem with Bioware giving you the opportunity to express more wrong opinions in-game.

Oh. Thats mature.

[Plaintiff]

hhh89 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

However, it irks me to no end that I can come up with answers that I find compelling to his arguments but Hawke is not allowed to debate him, choosing instead to sit silently while he raves.

And I can't do that for Fenris or Meredith, and little for Cullen. DA2 isn't a Roman forum. If you want to add more arguments for DA3, fine, but that opens up whole new cans of worms about whose side Bioware would write the better arguments for.

Why should Bioware write better arguments for one side? They could write more arguments from both sides (and there are plenly already discussed here in the forums that aren't present in-game), without favoring one side over the other.

It's not a question of "should", it's that one or both sides will still continue to see their opinion as being somehow misrepresented, regardless of what Bioware does. We already see this. DA2's intent was to present the issue as ambiguous, and I think they succeeded, but there are mage supporters complaining about how the representation of mages is unfair because "every mage is insane and/or evil!", and the templar supporters have precisely the same complaints.

Hell, we already have people on both sides who want to see the other be depicted as wholly "evil", to make it "fair" after the "unbalanced" representation of DA2. "I want to see roving bands of murderous, lyrium addled templars who rape villagers for no reason!" vs "I want to see mages gleefully slaughtering infants and puppies to fuel orgiastic blood rituals!"

I don't forsee any pro-templar argument causing me to change my stance anytime soon, though, so I don't care what Bioware writes. I'm confident in the moral and logical superiority of my stance regardless of how either side is presented, I suspect that the people asking/arguing/demanding for better representation of their own stance do it because they feel their own confidence wavering.

Or possibly they've become so emotionally invested that they'll interpret any contradictory evidence as Bioware trying to "brainwash" them into picking the "wrong" imaginary faction.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 21 novembre 2012 - 02:59 .

[Plaintiff]

Aolbain wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't have any problem with Bioware giving you the opportunity to express more wrong opinions in-game.

Oh. Thats mature.

Jesus, I thought dwarves were supposed to have thicker skin.

[Aolbain]

Plaintiff wrote...

Aolbain wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't have any problem with Bioware giving you the opportunity to express more wrong opinions in-game.

Oh. Thats mature.

Jesus, I thought dwarves were supposed to have thicker skin.

Well, thats one theory. The other is that we hold a habit of taking taking disproportionate revenges over quasi-imagined slights.

[paul165]

BoBear wrote...

Since DA3 is completely centered around this mage v Templar issue, I feel that they're going to need to broaden the arguements for both sides.

I do agree though. I think that Templar's didn't get their fair share of arguing points in DA2.

I agree that having made templar vs. mage the central conflict of the game the options will need to be there for more nuanced responses and possibly even more nuanced support eg support the templars in the hope of reforming them (ToR's LS sith) support the mages whilst disagreeing with many of their more moral event horizon actions or even just trying to defend the innocent civilians caught in the crossfire between the two sides.

I would also like the opportunity to distinguish between apostates  (Morrigan, Bethany) and the malificarum (sorry for the spelling) like Anders, Merrill and most renegade mages in DA2.

I also agree the same issue was present with the Qunari as you couldn't really disagree with them for any reason other than 'HERESY' seriously made me feel that the game should be issuing me with a bolt pistol and a cool hat.

[The Elder King]

Plaintiff wrote...


It's not a question of "should", it's that one or both sides will still continue to see their opinion as being somehow misrepresented, regardless of what Bioware does. We already see this. DA2's intent was to present the issue as ambiguous, and I think they succeeded, but there are mage supporters complaining about how the representation of mages is unfair because "every mage is insane and/or evil!", and the templar supporters have precisely the same complaints.

Hell, we already have people on both sides who want to see the other be depicted as wholly "evil", to make it "fair" after the "unbalanced" representation of DA2. "I want to see roving bands of murderous, lyrium addled templars who rape villagers for no reason!" vs "I want to see mages gleefully slaughtering infants and puppies to fuel orgiastic blood rituals!"

I don't forsee any pro-templar argument causing me to change my stance anytime soon, though, so I don't care what Bioware writes. I'm confident in the moral and logical superiority of my stance regardless of how either side is presented, I suspect that the people asking/arguing/demanding for better representation of their own stance do it because they feel their own confidence wavering.

Or possibly they've become so emotionally invested that they'll interpret any contradictory evidence as Bioware trying to "brainwash" them into picking the "wrong" imaginary faction.

If Bioware's intentions was to make the templar-mage conflict ambigous by representing both sides as bad, they succeed in their intention. Picking a side in DA2 is difficult for me, because both are represented as (nearly) the worst mages and templars could be. I want both sides being equally represented (and DA2 succeed in this) but I want them to fall in the gray area (which Bioware failed to do). Which means, of course, that I want to see bad templars and bad mages, but not everyone should be like this.
About the fact that people might want a better representation of their stance because they don't have confidence, I disagree. I think that people want simply to express the arguments that in other parts of the game and in the lore were shown, and that they couldn't in certain conversation with NPC of the opposite side.