373 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Much thanks to all who have shown support.

iSignIn wrote...
No, I mean the obvious self-contradiction between Andraste as a champion of freedom and equality and the enslavement of Mages

That can easily be justified if you believe segregating mages; not enslaving them; is the only way to prevent the rise of another Tevinter.

Regardless, the game should give their players the ability to create more nuanced characters. For instance, an Inquisitor who doesn't give two figs about the Maker or the Chantry and still fights against the Mage Rebellion because he sees them as too dangerous.

Modifié par MisterJB, 21 novembre 2012 - 05:46 .

[KingRoxas]

*supports*

[Potato Cat]

I support. At the moment, it's really one sided and if your pro-Templar, you seem to come across as an evil monster and I think a lot of people see siding with the Templars as the "evil" option. I'd like to play as an anti-mage character, (to keep away from my pro-mage rogue Warden and my neutral-leaning-towards-mage-but-still-sided-with-the-Templars-in-an-attempt-to-get-people-to-sympathise-with-the-mages-in-the-long-run mage Hawke), but I don't want to see them as "evil", but justified in their thinking.

Modifié par Elfman, 21 novembre 2012 - 07:25 .

[Warden661]

Plaintiff wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
It is obvious. Both the mages and the templars have a vetter interest in mages surviving the Harrowing. If nothing else because they are valuable resources and because no one wants an Abomination on the loose.
If you want to convince me that a biology class is not teaching biology, the burden of proof fails on you, not the other way around.

Well, in this metaphor, the "biology class" has not yet been shown to exist. If someone shows me the Circle curriculum and the timeslot for "Demonology: study of fade denizens and effective defense strategies", then I'll concede the issue.

Again: Full access to library containing numerous tomes on the subject. Obviously they are allowed to research and even being taught about demons.

Do you have the title of such a text?

I'm sure you've seen the big library in Ferelden's Circle at some point during DA:O. You can find the names of several texts from said library during the Witch Hunt DLC, one of which is titled Guarding Your Mind: How to Prevent Possession. You can look at the others here if you like http://dragonage.wik...rch_of_Morrigan.

Also during the DLC you can see mages training in the library. And I'm not sure because I've only played it a few times and can't remember all too well, but I think you saw mage apprentices training during the mage origin story. Also in DA2 if Bethany is sent to the circle there is a letter from her at the beginning of act 2 saying something about training a mage apprentice of her own. So there is proof that apprentices are trained before they go through the harrowing. Whether or not you wish to acknowledge it is up to you.

Modifié par BoBear, 21 novembre 2012 - 07:35 .

[xsdob]

esper wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff: It's obvious that a Circle created for the purpose of controlling magic and warding off demons is going to teach their initiates the theory behind it as well as self defense spells before deeming that any of them are ready for the Harrowing. Just because we don't see Senior Enchanters going: "If a spirit, regardless of physical form, ask for a way out of the Fade, back the f*ck away. That's a demon," doesn't mean these things are not taught.

It's not obvious at all. The information isn't present in the game. I'm not going to assume that a clear problem has just been "dealt with".

Even if it were so, that's still no rational reason to keep the Harrowing a secret. In every other area of education, students are informed of the broad content of final exams well ahead of time, and the exams do not introduce concepts that the students have not been able to practice beforehand. We do not throw our firemen and paramedics into real emergency situations without training, just to see if they can "handle it".

Well, once agian, it really is like a drivers test. They are taught what might happen on the road, but there are no garuntee's as to what will happen once they get on the road and drive. Similarly, they can't control what the demons will do in the fade, whether they will be pride demons, simply anger demons, lust demons, sloth, greed, or what forms the demons will take. All of those are unknown factors that the students must be prepared to face becase it is what they will face every time they sleep and enter the fade.

Another point, is that there is studying for a test, and than studying the answers for a test. If people know the harrowing is just a confrontation with a demon, they will most likley cheat on such a trial. They will become arrogant and cocky that they know what to expect, which means when the demon throws a curve ball to catch them off guard, they'll be more likley to fall for it since it will not be what they expected and prepared exclusivley for.

Do you kinda see what I'm getting at here?

I have to say I don't know what school you took your licence in, but I would not want to take that licence. In my country licence taking is the following way.

First a theoretical studies and examination, these studies including warning off typical dangers, learning the meaning off sign and rules. And that is  beside elemental school feature a lot of the same in general education (At least in the danger and sign department). This would be equal to study the theory of Fades and Demons and might or might not be present in the Circles.

Then a pratical study with a licenced teacher where s/he drives with the student, first on practice course and then in the real traffic with the teacher still in the car, to give advice plus the car might have an extra set of brakes at the teacher place, I am not sure about that. This step, which is very important, is completely missing from the circle system.

Then and first then comes the exmanition which is done with a student, together with a policeman, in the traffic to see if they can act as they should in the student pass they are allowed to drive a car, if they fail they have to go back to step two.

The Harrowwing is equal tp perhaps skipping step one, saying step to is irrellevnt because we never no what can happen in the traffic and step three being morphed into the student being placed alone in the car, place them on the highway and then purposely summoning a ghost driver (ie the demon) to see if they have the reflexes to avoid the car in the wrong lane. If they fail both student and ghost driver is death, if they succeeded they have proved nothing other than being extremely lucky, and have not learned how to navigate the traffic somewhat sensible.

I took mine in hawaii. It involved a 5 week course with live driving trails on the freeway and normal roads mixed in, than going down to the DMV, passing the written exam, and than immediatly going into the car to start the test.

Which country are you from out of curiosity? Yours sounds like a lot more than what I had.


Also, just because they don't know what the harrowing is, doesn't mean they never were trained at all for it. Similarly to all test, just becasue they weren't given the exact down to the letter answers for the test to study doesn't mean they will fail the final exam for the class. They are probably taught what things to look out for in the fade, just not told "Now pay attention becasue this will be part of your harrowing exam".

Pretty much, they already learned what to do in case they end up in the fade and need to deal with demons, now it's time to prove that they know by having them demonstrate their knowledge they learned in class, without making it where they would be completley prepared for it, in terms of preemptive spells or knowledge of what to expect in the fade outside of what they were taught might be there, seeing as how this is to demonstrate that they can handle demons invading their dreams and tempting them with power.

You know, like we saw happen twice with people who never took the harrowing, such as conner or feynriel.

Modifié par xsdob, 21 novembre 2012 - 08:06 .

[Medhia Nox]

I see BoBear mentioned the book I was going to bring up.

===

And "theory" doesn't do anything - countless are the people "trained" for jobs by a college to find out that the real job only uses a fraction of what they've learned.

If I told someone: "Just think good thoughts! Resist the demon's influence with suger and sunshine!"

That doesn't mean that when they're called to do it - that it's going to be possible.

====

It's not the Templars that needed more nuanced characters - they're a military organization with one very specific purpose.

It really does make sense that they took that purpose to the extreme.

The Templars need to be made secular and given more things to do - like fight Darkspawn and monsters or something (much like the Grey Wardens have been kinda expanding their usefulness in the expansion material and beyond).

====

The nuanced behavior really needed to be handed out to the Chantry.

Instead of a bunch of stuck up old crones - more effort should have been placed on all the great things the Chantry does.

Charities - orphanages - fighting against elven oppression (we do get one priestess who does this somewhat in the city elf origin) - medicine - schooling (real religions were foundations of learning).

And in DA 3 - we should see the infrastructure of whole nations collapsing because of the self-serving mages.

====

I truly cannot envision DA 3 ever going well for the mages - I will truly have to suspend disbelief I think.

[Xilizhra]

Instead of a bunch of stuck up old crones - more effort should have been placed on all the great things the Chantry does.

Charities - orphanages - fighting against elven oppression (we do get one priestess who does this somewhat in the city elf origin) - medicine - schooling (real religions were foundations of learning).

I think the strong implication is that they haven't been doing very much good at all, lately. They're an indolent, self-serving power structure that puts on a good show for the masses.

[Plaintiff]

Medhia Nox wrote...
*snip* 

"There should be more nuanced arguments, but only for the side I already agree with!"

[CaptainBlackGold]

Xilizhra wrote...

Instead of a bunch of stuck up old crones - more effort should have been placed on all the great things the Chantry does.

Charities - orphanages - fighting against elven oppression (we do get one priestess who does this somewhat in the city elf origin) - medicine - schooling (real religions were foundations of learning).

I think the strong implication is that they haven't been doing very much good at all, lately. They're an indolent, self-serving power structure that puts on a good show for the masses.

I think the writers have tried to give a balanced view of the Chantry - for every Petrice, there is that nice old lady divine in Kirkwall (sorry forgot her name, it's been a while), showing real compassion, grace and dignity. In DAO we see the Chantry and its sisters helping the poor refugees, standing their ground even though the Dark Spawn are almost there.

Mayhaps real world disaffection is coloring your view of how the Chantry is actually presented, in game?

[BlueMagitek]

I just read Nox's post, and that isn't what he said at all. :/

Nox, I also disagree, the Priestress didn't really help at all against the nobility. I don't think I have a pro-chantry city elf. :/

[Plaintiff]

BlueMagitek wrote...

I just read Nox's post, and that isn't what he said at all. :/

He wants the "usefulness" of the templars to be expanded, for depictions of the Chantry to focus on their "good works" and downplay their culpability in the oppression, and for free mages to be solely responsible for the complete collapse of society.

How in the hell is that not completely one-sided?

[Xilizhra]

CaptainBlackGold wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Instead of a bunch of stuck up old crones - more effort should have been placed on all the great things the Chantry does.

Charities - orphanages - fighting against elven oppression (we do get one priestess who does this somewhat in the city elf origin) - medicine - schooling (real religions were foundations of learning).

I think the strong implication is that they haven't been doing very much good at all, lately. They're an indolent, self-serving power structure that puts on a good show for the masses.

I think the writers have tried to give a balanced view of the Chantry - for every Petrice, there is that nice old lady divine in Kirkwall (sorry forgot her name, it's been a while), showing real compassion, grace and dignity. In DAO we see the Chantry and its sisters helping the poor refugees, standing their ground even though the Dark Spawn are almost there.

Mayhaps real world disaffection is coloring your view of how the Chantry is actually presented, in game?

Elthina? Elthina, so far as I can tell, is a schemer supreme who only acts pleasantly senile to throw people off. I'm fairly sure she tacitly approved Petrice's plotting and Meredith's tyranny alike, and just acted as if she couldn't interfere/didn't know to ensure that she kept the peoples' popularity. Also, in DA2, we learn that the priests and templars buggered out of Lothering rather fast.

[BlueMagitek]

Plaintiff wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

I just read Nox's post, and that isn't what he said at all. :/

He wants the "usefulness" of the templars to be expanded, for depictions of the Chantry to focus on their "good works" and downplay their culpability in the oppression, and for free mages to be solely responsible for the complete collapse of society.

How in the hell is that not completely one-sided?

He called for Templar to be secularized and to have more duties than what they currently have.  And he said SELF SERVING mages.  Now, if you equate every free mage to a self serving one, that's your own issue. :/

[Plaintiff]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

I just read Nox's post, and that isn't what he said at all. :/

He wants the "usefulness" of the templars to be expanded, for depictions of the Chantry to focus on their "good works" and downplay their culpability in the oppression, and for free mages to be solely responsible for the complete collapse of society.

How in the hell is that not completely one-sided?

He called for Templar to be secularized and to have more duties than what they currently have.  And he said SELF SERVING mages.  Now, if you equate every free mage to a self serving one, that's your own issue. :/

He already made that equation himself in his posts here and elsewhere. He views any mage with a desire to be free as "self-serving".

I don't disagree with the notion that mages are self-serving, I fail to see how that is a negative thing to be. The non-mages are also incredibly self-serving, but people who argue for the imprisonment of mages conveniently ignore that.

[CaptainBlackGold]

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

[quote]CaptainBlackGold wrote...

SNIP

Elthina? Elthina, so far as I can tell, is a schemer supreme who only acts pleasantly senile to throw people off. I'm fairly sure she tacitly approved Petrice's plotting and Meredith's tyranny alike, and just acted as if she couldn't interfere/didn't know to ensure that she kept the peoples' popularity. Also, in DA2, we learn that the priests and templars buggered out of Lothering rather fast.
[/quote]

However, is there any in game evidence to support your interpretation of "Elthina" (we'll go with that until someone corrects us)? That was not the impression I got from her character at all. Granted, I might have missed something and am open to any evidence you have to support your belief here. But I really did not see her that way at all.

And in regards to Lothering, you will have to remind me - a misspent youth has implications... However, my impression at the time, was that the Dark Spawn were expected any minute, and that the Chantry was still taking care of refugees - not to mention the old lady jumping on that poor capitalist trying to make a profit...

Are we the only two people talking right now, because I go to one thread, and you are there, and go to another, and you are here. We've got to stop meeting like this:D

[Xilizhra]

However, is there any in game evidence to support your interpretation of "Elthina" (we'll go with that until someone corrects us)? That was not the impression I got from her character at all. Granted, I might have missed something and am open to any evidence you have to support your belief here. But I really did not see her that way at all.

Meredith obeys her with little prodding, and seems extremely reverent of her. I see no evidence that Meredith is somehow out of Elthina's control. And Petrice seemed utterly shocked at being abandoned by Elthina in Following the Qun, as though she assumed that Elthina was in on the same thing and would continue to support her.

[BlueMagitek]

Plaintiff wrote...

He already made that equation himself in his posts here and elsewhere. He views any mage with a desire to be free as "self-serving".

I don't disagree with the notion that mages are self-serving, I fail to see how that is a negative thing to be. The non-mages are also incredibly self-serving, but people who argue for the imprisonment of mages conveniently ignore that.

Well, it is self serving for any mage to just go off whenever they want to.  They're considerably more dangerous than just about any other person.  Even Jowan.

It's not negative, but there's a difference between how a normal person and a mage can achieve those goals.  A blood mage can just enthrall people as he pleases, stripping them of their will.  Normal people can't do that, and normal law enforcement isn't equipped to deal with that.  And when this happens, you end up with the Tevinter Imperium. :/

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

CaptainBlackGold wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Instead of a bunch of stuck up old crones - more effort should have been placed on all the great things the Chantry does.

Charities - orphanages - fighting against elven oppression (we do get one priestess who does this somewhat in the city elf origin) - medicine - schooling (real religions were foundations of learning).

I think the strong implication is that they haven't been doing very much good at all, lately. They're an indolent, self-serving power structure that puts on a good show for the masses.

I think the writers have tried to give a balanced view of the Chantry - for every Petrice, there is that nice old lady divine in Kirkwall (sorry forgot her name, it's been a while), showing real compassion, grace and dignity. In DAO we see the Chantry and its sisters helping the poor refugees, standing their ground even though the Dark Spawn are almost there.

Mayhaps real world disaffection is coloring your view of how the Chantry is actually presented, in game?

Elthina? Elthina, so far as I can tell, is a schemer supreme who only acts pleasantly senile to throw people off. I'm fairly sure she tacitly approved Petrice's plotting and Meredith's tyranny alike, and just acted as if she couldn't interfere/didn't know to ensure that she kept the peoples' popularity. Also, in DA2, we learn that the priests and templars buggered out of Lothering rather fast.

Your headcannon is of little consequence, and the Chantry and the Templars in Lothering remained behind long after the Bann, who's duty it was to actually protect the village, had abbandoned it.

[Plaintiff]

BlueMagitek wrote...
Well, it is self serving for any mage to just go off whenever they want to.  They're considerably more dangerous than just about any other person.  Even Jowan.

Simply "being more dangerous" isn't a good enough justification for locking people up. 

It's not negative, but there's a difference between how a normal person and a mage can achieve those goals.

There's nothing inherently wrong with using magic to acheive your personal goals. It is the nature of your personal goals that determines whether or not imprisonment is warranted, and not every mage wants to be a tyrannical dictator.
 

A blood mage can just enthrall people as he pleases, stripping them of their will.  Normal people can't do that, and normal law enforcement isn't equipped to deal with that.

Litany of Adralla. Learn it, live it, love it.

It might be possible to develop more and better preventatives against mind control and other harmful magic, if the Chantry didn't restrict research so heavily.

And when this happens, you end up with the Tevinter Imperium. :/

I don't think we've seen enough of the Tevinter Imperium to make any definitive judgements about it, but at this stage I fail to see how any of the other nations in Thedas are morally superior.

[Sharn01]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

He already made that equation himself in his posts here and elsewhere. He views any mage with a desire to be free as "self-serving".

I don't disagree with the notion that mages are self-serving, I fail to see how that is a negative thing to be. The non-mages are also incredibly self-serving, but people who argue for the imprisonment of mages conveniently ignore that.

Well, it is self serving for any mage to just go off whenever they want to.  They're considerably more dangerous than just about any other person.  Even Jowan.

It's not negative, but there's a difference between how a normal person and a mage can achieve those goals.  A blood mage can just enthrall people as he pleases, stripping them of their will.  Normal people can't do that, and normal law enforcement isn't equipped to deal with that.  And when this happens, you end up with the Tevinter Imperium. :/

Yeah, if you give mages any freedom at all they are going to start mind controlling people and usher in a new Tevinter.

What was this thread about again?

[Xilizhra]

Your headcannon is of little consequence, and the Chantry and the Templars in Lothering remained behind long after the Bann, who's duty it was to actually protect the village, had abbandoned it.

The bann was, IIRC, ordered by his superiors to do so. And you can call it headcanon, but it's no more headcanon than believing that the Chantry is actually saintly. It's a matter of interpretation.

[The Hierophant]

Sharn01 wrote...

Yeah, if you give mages any freedom at all they are going to start mind controlling people and usher in a new Tevinter.

Seeing as how Feynriel, Bethany, and Alain were the only sane mages in Da2 i wouldn't be surprised. 

[BlueMagitek]

Plaintiff wrote...

Simply "being more dangerous" isn't a good enough justification for locking people up. 

There's nothing inherently wrong with using magic to acheive your personal goals. It is the nature of your personal goals that determines whether or not imprisonment is warranted, and not every mage wants to be a tyrannical dictator.

Litany of Adralla. Learn it, live it, love it.

It might be possible to develop more and better preventatives against mind control and other harmful magic, if the Chantry didn't restrict research so heavily.

I don't think we've seen enough of the Tevinter Imperium to make any definitive judgements about it, but at this stage I fail to see how any of the other nations in Thedas are morally superior.

Oh, but it is.  A walking bomb needs to be restricted.  Much as we would restrict a person if they spewed radiation constantly.   The Circle system also protects mages from the common people; as Wynne says, for every child brought to the Circle, there's one who doesn't make it because they're killed.

There is something inherently wrong to use magic to achieve your personal goals if your goals are sinister and dominate the minds or bodies of others.  And given that for every Wilhelm, there are about 20 insane mages, I think it's a fair estimate that apostates be crazy tripping. :/

The litany only stops blood magic in progress.  It doesn't remove blood magic or prevent it from happening later.  It's also ridiculous for every person to be forced to constantly scream out the litany in hopes of being of their own mind.

Maybe.  But Avernus, everyone's favorite bloodmage, hasn't come up with anything.  Merril really hasn't either.

You mean aside from the magic oligarchy, demon summoning, blood magic rituals, enslavement of elves, use of Templar as a gestapo of sorts for the mage oligarchy and encouragement of manipulating with the minds of other people across the continent?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

Your headcannon is of little consequence, and the Chantry and the Templars in Lothering remained behind long after the Bann, who's duty it was to actually protect the village, had abbandoned it.

The bann was, IIRC, ordered by his superiors to do so. And you can call it headcanon, but it's no more headcanon than believing that the Chantry is actually saintly. It's a matter of interpretation.

The Bann had indeed taken off to fight the civil war along with ALL of his men. He had not even left a single guard to keep order in the village. The Templars staid for as long as they could, until it became too dangerous, even when they could have left far earlier. And who said I thought the Chantry saintly?

[The Hierophant]

Xilizhra wrote...

Your headcannon is of little consequence, and the Chantry and the Templars in Lothering remained behind long after the Bann, who's duty it was to actually protect the village, had abbandoned it.

The bann was, IIRC, ordered by his superiors to do so. And you can call it headcanon, but it's no more headcanon than believing that the Chantry is actually saintly. It's a matter of interpretation.

It doesn't change the fact that they stayed behind to help refugees, and impose some sense of order in the village regardless of motivation behind the deed.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 22 novembre 2012 - 04:20 .