373 réponses à ce sujet

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

Your headcannon is of little consequence, and the Chantry and the Templars in Lothering remained behind long after the Bann, who's duty it was to actually protect the village, had abbandoned it.

The bann was, IIRC, ordered by his superiors to do so. And you can call it headcanon, but it's no more headcanon than believing that the Chantry is actually saintly. It's a matter of interpretation.

Actually no, your headcannon is less valid than my Merril theory. :/

I mean, at least we actually see the Chantry performing charity and good works now and then.  I don't recall Elthina ever cackling madly about destroying the mages.  The entire point of Anders killing her was so that she couldn't stop the rebellion.

One of the best interactions, not necessarily a 'pro templar' argument, but a 'pro people' one, was convincing Anders that he was wrong and watch him go off to try and stop it.  Too bad Justice was in the way. :/

[Plaintiff]

BlueMagitek wrote...Oh, but it is.  A walking bomb needs to be restricted.  Much as we would restrict a person if they spewed radiation constantly.

Mages don't spew radiation constantly. A mage is not a ticking bomb. A mage harms no one by minding his own business.

The Circle system also protects mages from the common people; as Wynne says, for every child brought to the Circle, there's one who doesn't make it because they're killed.

You know what might help prevent that? If the Chantry stopped preaching mage-hate in its sermons to the ignorant peasantry. When you go around telling all these poor, uneducated rubes that mages are "cursed" and responsible for unleashing evil on the world a billion years ago (without any sort of proof), then what the hell else do you expect to happen?

There is something inherently wrong to use magic to achieve your personal goals if your goals are sinister and dominate the minds or bodies of others.

If your goals are sinister and involve domination, then your methods are irrelevent. Are you suggesting that a mundane tyrant is more acceptable than a magical one? 

And given that for every Wilhelm, there are about 20 insane mages, I think it's a fair estimate that apostates be crazy tripping. :/

I don't make sweeping judgements about entire groups based solely on my personal experience with individuals.

The litany only stops blood magic in progress.  It doesn't remove blood magic or prevent it from happening later.  It's also ridiculous for every person to be forced to constantly scream out the litany in hopes of being of their own mind.

Yes, that is ridiculous. It's also not at all what I said. I expect people to be able to use their brains and be capable of recognizing when someone they know well is acting oddly.

Maybe.  But Avernus, everyone's favorite bloodmage, hasn't come up with anything.  Merril really hasn't either.

You know what we need to do now, then? More research.

Avernus and Merrill aren't looking for counters to mind control, so I don't expect them to find any.

You mean aside from the magic oligarchy, demon summoning, blood magic rituals, enslavement of elves, use of Templar as a gestapo of sorts for the mage oligarchy and encouragement of manipulating with the minds of other people across the continent?

I'm not discounting anything. Even with all of those things happening in Tevinter, the other nations of Thedas are no better. They do more than enough terrible things to make up the difference.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 22 novembre 2012 - 05:07 .

[Chipaway111]

Kinda hoping to jump into this thread without a mage debate going on but the BSN never fails.

I don't know if its being mentioned but there is one very minor situation where a Hawke (romanced, I think) and Anders rilvary path lets you agree/dis-agree differently. I think it goes something like:

Anders: Blah blah blah how can you love me and stand against me? Blah blah blah.

Hawke: I do want freedom for mages blah blah I just don't agree with your methods.

Which was nice because it was something other than "Shut up, mouth shut now" or "Yes, yes, yes, of course you're right. FREEDOM FOR EVERYONE."

More options to apparently have the 'wrong' opinion (though how an opinion can be wrong when they're almost entirely subjective is beyond me) would be great. I fluctuate between pro-mage and pro-templar, it mainly comes down to the individuals involved because generalization on such a larger scale really annoys me.

[xsdob]

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't think we've seen enough of the Tevinter Imperium to make any definitive judgements about it, but at this stage I fail to see how any of the other nations in Thedas are morally superior.

That is the most retarded statement I have ever heard, and I like the tevinter imperium.

They have slavery, ****ing no money, no house, barley any food, no education or chance to better their life, and kept only as sacrifical lambs for their blood magic slavery as the very backbone of their economy, society, and culture.

They are ruled by an elitist magic aritoscracy that routinly murders and uses blood magic against any rival or youth who might pose a threat to their rule.

They hate all elves, treat them worse than any alienage, and make sure they can't function without their constant orders, as the elf from DA2 who went with the lady blood mage proved.

If you recieve a letter from fenryal after he goes to the tevinter imperium, he tells you that the mages often go out and murder people in broad daylight just to show off their skills.

Tis a very ****ed up land and is not something I want for the rest of thedas.

[Plaintiff]

xsdob wrote...
That is the most retarded statement I have ever heard, and I like the tevinter imperium.

They have slavery, ****ing no money, no house, barley any food, no education or chance to better their life, and kept only as sacrifical lambs for their blood magic slavery as the very backbone of their economy, society, and culture.

The only thing you've actually said here with any in-game evidence to support it is "they have slavery".

They are ruled by an elitist magic aritoscracy that routinly murders and uses blood magic against any rival or youth who might pose a threat to their rule.

According to Fenris, who is hardly an unbiased source, and is not privy to the private activities of any mage except his former master, Danarius.

They hate all elves, treat them worse than any alienage, and make sure they can't function without their constant orders, as the elf from DA2 who went with the lady blood mage proved.

False. Mage elves can become magisters, Varania sold her brother out for that very opportunity. And we see the elf woman in Origins working willingly with Tevinter slavers, and even ordering human thugs around.

If you recieve a letter from fenryal after he goes to the tevinter imperium, he tells you that the mages often go out and murder people in broad daylight just to show off their skills.

Feynriel saw a magical duel in the middle of the street, where a man killed his opponent in public view. One incident, hardly indicative of a wider trend. In Origins you are challenged to a public duel by a knight in the middle of Denerim's marketplace. I fail to see how that's better.

Tis a very ****ed up land and is not something I want for the rest of thedas.

Yes it's totally better to lock mages in dungeons crawling with rapists, and force elves to live in squalor.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 22 novembre 2012 - 06:18 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

[quote]BlueMagitek wrote...Oh, but it is.  A walking bomb needs to be restricted.  Much as we would restrict a person if they spewed radiation constantly.[/quote]
Mages don't spew radiation constantly. A mage is not a ticking bomb. A mage harms no one by minding his own business. [/quote]

If they're not properly trained, they can be a ticking bomb.

[quote]
[quote]The Circle system also protects mages from the common people; as Wynne says, for every child brought to the Circle, there's one who doesn't make it because they're killed.[/quote]
You know what might help prevent that? If the Chantry stopped preaching mage-hate in its sermons to the ignorant peasantry. When you go around telling all these poor, uneducated rubes that mages are "cursed" and responsible for unleashing evil on the world a billion years ago (without any sort of proof), then what the hell else do you expect to happen? [/quote]

See, I agree with you here. Someone needs to keep a watch on the mages, but that someone oughtn't be the Chantry.

[quote]
[quote]There is something inherently wrong to use magic to achieve your personal goals if your goals are sinister and dominate the minds or bodies of others.[/quote]
If your goals are sinister and involve domination, then your methods are irrelevent. Are you suggesting that a mundane tyrant is more acceptable than a magical one?  [/quote]

The mundane tyrant is more limited in his means.

[quote]
[quote]And given that for every Wilhelm, there are about 20 insane mages, I think it's a fair estimate that apostates be crazy tripping. :/[/quote]
I don't make sweeping judgements about entire groups based solely on my personal experience with individuals. [/quote]

I do. But since that experience is in relatively normal Ferelden, which isn't a Hellmouth, and where the Mage's Collective manages to stay relatively sane, it comes to the same thing. A lot of apostates are good people, and judging by the fact that Thedas continues to exist they can almost always handle themselves against demons. But then there's the few who can't, and turn into anything from minor pests to city-killing menaces.

[quote]
[quote]The litany only stops blood magic in progress.  It doesn't remove blood magic or prevent it from happening later.  It's also ridiculous for every person to be forced to constantly scream out the litany in hopes of being of their own mind.[/quote]
Yes, that is ridiculous. It's also not at all what I said. I expect people to be able to use their brains and be capable of recognizing when someone they know well is acting oddly. [/quote]

Yeah, but by the time they notice, it's too late to use the Litany.
[/quote]

[Allan Schumacher]

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't have any problem with Bioware giving you the opportunity to express more wrong opinions in-game.

One of these words wasn't necessary (emphasis mine).

It's fine to disagree, but at some point it becomes difficult to differentiate from just trying to press buttons.  I wondered if perhaps this is mostly just a tongue in cheek response (I made a similar response in a silly poll about breakfast foods), but the topic is a bit heated so I ask everyone to still respect each other on this matter.

The nature of the situation I think leads to very interesting discussion because it's lack of clear consensus on what is best is what feeds the discussions.

[TEWR]

As a pro-mage person myself, I support this. Demons and Tevinter are two arguments that are capable of being prevented more then they are through magical research/weak when you realize culture plays a significant role in how people behave, respectively.

Really, this boils down to seeing the good and bad in both sides in equal -- and intelligent -- measure.

[DKJaigen]

xsdob wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't think we've seen enough of the Tevinter Imperium to make any definitive judgements about it, but at this stage I fail to see how any of the other nations in Thedas are morally superior.

That is the most retarded statement I have ever heard, and I like the tevinter imperium.

They have slavery, ****ing no money, no house, barley any food, no education or chance to better their life, and kept only as sacrifical lambs for their blood magic slavery as the very backbone of their economy, society, and culture.

They are ruled by an elitist magic aritoscracy that routinly murders and uses blood magic against any rival or youth who might pose a threat to their rule.

They hate all elves, treat them worse than any alienage, and make sure they can't function without their constant orders, as the elf from DA2 who went with the lady blood mage proved.

If you recieve a letter from fenryal after he goes to the tevinter imperium, he tells you that the mages often go out and murder people in broad daylight just to show off their skills.

Tis a very ****ed up land and is not something I want for the rest of thedas.

Thats a bit  contradictory,  you like the tevinter imperium but do not wish for the rest of thedas?  We have seen far to little of the tevinter imperium to create a proper opinion. But it could well be that they are more ethical then the rest of thedas.

[TobiTobsen]

xsdob wrote...

They hate all elves, treat them worse than any alienage, and make sure they can't function without their constant orders, as the elf from DA2 who went with the lady blood mage proved.

Actually that seemed like "normal" behaviour for a slave who never knew anything else.

Fenris sister was actually offered the position of magister if she helped capture him.
That seems to be rather progressive compared with the fact that the highest social position for an city elf we witnessed till now was guardsman which seemed to be rather unusual and was only made possible by Aveline throwing her weight around.

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 22 novembre 2012 - 09:23 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Navasha wrote...

In my own personal opinion, the problem with trying to justify a pro-templar position is that much of it is unjustifiable.
Its hard to come up with any good reason why children are taken from their families and thrust into what are basically concentration camps.

I recall DG saying that there were good reasons for it.
Now, lets suppose that separating mother and child results in less mage possesion (and child possesions) among mages. Is it unjustified now?

Its like trying to come up with justifications for slavery. There really isn't any "good" way to defend it.

It is nothing like that at all.

A king or other political ruler also has the power to cause death and misery on a wide scale. Saying that simply having that power, even if it is never used, is justification for condemnation is just play wrong. The divine herself.... has the power to call an exalted march laying waste to whole towns and countries... Sounds like a more devastating power than any mage I have seen in a game.

And that is a political power - a power that relies ON OTHERS to obey. It is not personal or intrinsic.

[clipped_wolf]

Our culture puts so much importance on individuality. Everyone loves the rebel.

When mages were in charge there was the Tevintar Imperium dominating the land. Now the Chantry rules the land and maybe the Quanari want it?

The trend is whenever rebels in history win their battles an elite among them rises in the aftermath and dominates politics and economics.

There is a backdrop rich with the possibility of human depth and complexity but I expect more mediocre justifications to the Templars. They tended to be insane zealots or whinny deserters.
There is a general weakness in Bioware writing in presenting the motivations of institutional or collectivist minded individuals.

[xsdob]

TobiTobsen wrote...

xsdob wrote...

They hate all elves, treat them worse than any alienage, and make sure they can't function without their constant orders, as the elf from DA2 who went with the lady blood mage proved.

Actually that seemed like "normal" behaviour for a slave who never knew anything else.

Fenris sister was actually offered the position of magister if she helped capture him.
That seems to be rather progressive compared with the fact that the highest social position for an city elf we witnessed till now was guardsman which seemed to be rather unusual and was only made possible by Aveline throwing her weight around.

You know, maybe it's just becasue he's a blood mage with obvious signs of sadistic tendancies. Maybe it's how his apprentice used her servents as fuel for her own magic. Or maybe I just don't like the guy. But for some reason, I don't trust him to keep his end of the bargin, if anything I think he's going to attempted what he did to fenris on his sister, only this time strip her of her entire mind so she becomes a simple servent.

And for those wondering, I like the tevinter imperium for the same reason I like the batarian hegemony, becasue I feel there is a good story to be told of a person who oppose the system coming about and trying to bring reforms to it. Or someone whose from the imperium coming to see outside cultures with a newer respect, sort of like sten except without the reeducation part afterwards. Probably just me and how I think of things, but when I see either culture, I just think of what an interesting society it would be to have a story told and the unqiue and interesting tales that could be told from it's citizens points of view. Doesn't mean I'd like every nation in thedas to allow unrisitrcted blood magic, slavery, and an unnacountable mageacroacy in power.

Modifié par xsdob, 22 novembre 2012 - 10:50 .

[xsdob]

Ah well, I'm most likely wrong about the elf thing with the tevinter imperium, though I have a sneaking suspicion that even elf mages aren't treated with total acceptance in the city that broke the elven people, destroyed their city, and enslaved their people, and who ended up having the circle mostly because of their revolt. To me, with that much history, I'd say elf hatred probably runs pretty high, only overshadowed by the potential of magic the elf mages might have.

But I was more than likley wrong, so I take back the part about the elves from my previous statement. Now someone show me proof that the imperium isn't ruled by elitist opportunist and Machiavellian blood mages, or that none magical citizens don't get downtrodden by them, or that magic duels are in fact not common, and I'll take back the other points as well.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...Oh, but it is.  A walking bomb needs to be restricted.  Much as we would restrict a person if they spewed radiation constantly.

Mages don't spew radiation constantly. A mage is not a ticking bomb. A mage harms no one by minding his own business.

As long as he's minding his own buisness in the Cirlce tower you are right.

You know what might help prevent that? If the Chantry stopped preaching mage-hate in its sermons to the ignorant peasantry. When you go around telling all these poor, uneducated rubes that mages are "cursed" and responsible for unleashing evil on the world a billion years ago (without any sort of proof), then what the hell else do you expect to happen?

Bah...again with this rubbish of "mage hate exist only because of the Chatnry". It doesn't.
People distrust and fear mages because tehy are dangerous.
And the chantry doesn't preach hate. One reverend mother or two don't make it an official Chantry stance.

If your goals are sinister and involve domination, then your methods are irrelevent. Are you suggesting that a mundane tyrant is more acceptable than a magical one? 

I'd say yes.
A mundane tyrant is more easily disposed of.

I don't make sweeping judgements about entire groups based solely on my personal experience with individuals.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Oh yes you do.
Do do it to templars and to the Chantry ALL THE TIME.

Yes, that is ridiculous. It's also not at all what I said. I expect people to be able to use their brains and be capable of recognizing when someone they know well is acting oddly.

Because that is so easy to detect, right?

You mean aside from the magic oligarchy, demon summoning, blood magic rituals, enslavement of elves, use of Templar as a gestapo of sorts for the mage oligarchy and encouragement of manipulating with the minds of other people across the continent?

I'm not discounting anything. Even with all of those things happening in Tevinter, the other nations of Thedas are no better. They do more than enough terrible things to make up the difference.

The lengths to which you are willing to go to to defend mages is astounding....

[Plaintiff]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't have any problem with Bioware giving you the opportunity to express more wrong opinions in-game.

One of these words wasn't necessary (emphasis mine).

It's fine to disagree, but at some point it becomes difficult to differentiate from just trying to press buttons.  I wondered if perhaps this is mostly just a tongue in cheek response (I made a similar response in a silly poll about breakfast foods), but the topic is a bit heated so I ask everyone to still respect each other on this matter.

The nature of the situation I think leads to very interesting discussion because it's lack of clear consensus on what is best is what feeds the discussions.

It was intended to be humorous, yes.

[Plaintiff]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Bah...again with this rubbish of "mage hate exist only because of the Chatnry". It doesn't.
People distrust and fear mages because tehy are dangerous.
And the chantry doesn't preach hate. One reverend mother or two don't make it an official Chantry stance.

Not once did I use the word "only".

Mages are dangerous, I never denied that, but their potential danger is proportional to, if not less than, their potential benefit to society if they were utilised properly. The Chantry's rehtoric greatly overdramatises the situation, to the point of flat-out falsehood. It blames current mages for something that an unrelated group of people did thousands of years ago (if they even did it), and brands them as the source of all evil, which is false and wholly unnecessary.

A mundane tyrant is more easily disposed of.

And that makes thier actions okay?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Oh yes you do.
Do do it to templars and to the Chantry ALL THE TIME.

The Chantry and the Templars are formal organizations with strict beliefs and codes of behaviours that individuals have to willingly join. It's not the same thing as being born a mage, which individuals have no control over.

If you willingly join the Templars or the Chantry then it's a perfectly reasonable assumption that you support their reprehensible ideologies and behaviours. If you don't support them, then there is no good reason to join.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 22 novembre 2012 - 12:18 .

[paul165]

Xilizhra wrote...

However, is there any in game evidence to support your interpretation of "Elthina" (we'll go with that until someone corrects us)? That was not the impression I got from her character at all. Granted, I might have missed something and am open to any evidence you have to support your belief here. But I really did not see her that way at all.

Meredith obeys her with little prodding, and seems extremely reverent of her. I see no evidence that Meredith is somehow out of Elthina's control. And Petrice seemed utterly shocked at being abandoned by Elthina in Following the Qun, as though she assumed that Elthina was in on the same thing and would continue to support her.

Meredith is profoundly religious she therefore obeys the ranking Chantry leadership there is no great surprise there. Petrice I agree assumed Elthina would support her but Petrice assumes a lot of things not very many of which are necessarily true.

[paul165]

Plaintiff wrote...

xsdob wrote...
That is the most retarded statement I have ever heard, and I like the tevinter imperium.

They have slavery, ****ing no money, no house, barley any food, no education or chance to better their life, and kept only as sacrifical lambs for their blood magic slavery as the very backbone of their economy, society, and culture.

The only thing you've actually said here with any in-game evidence to support it is "they have slavery".

They are ruled by an elitist magic aritoscracy that routinly murders and uses blood magic against any rival or youth who might pose a threat to their rule.

According to Fenris, who is hardly an unbiased source, and is not privy to the private activities of any mage except his former master, Danarius.

They hate all elves, treat them worse than any alienage, and make sure they can't function without their constant orders, as the elf from DA2 who went with the lady blood mage proved.

False. Mage elves can become magisters, Varania sold her brother out for that very opportunity. And we see the elf woman in Origins working willingly with Tevinter slavers, and even ordering human thugs around.

If you recieve a letter from fenryal after he goes to the tevinter imperium, he tells you that the mages often go out and murder people in broad daylight just to show off their skills.

Feynriel saw a magical duel in the middle of the street, where a man killed his opponent in public view. One incident, hardly indicative of a wider trend. In Origins you are challenged to a public duel by a knight in the middle of Denerim's marketplace. I fail to see how that's better.

Tis a very ****ed up land and is not something I want for the rest of thedas.

Yes it's totally better to lock mages in dungeons crawling with rapists, and force elves to live in squalor.

Or - here's a thought you don't allow the rapists to join the army or if they do you kick them out preferably with an added jail sentence - beats the heck out of a rigidly enforced magocracy. The Tevinter do appear less racist against the Elves than most other political systems - but so are the Qunari it's easy not be racist when everyone is a slave to the magistars or the Qunari's deeply screwed ideology.

You don't see the difference between a pair of guys dueling each other with sharpened bits of metal and mages throwing fireballs? If a sword misses nobody cares if a fireball misses you smash a house, or a shop or little Timmy watching the pretty lights. It's the difference between two guys having a punch outside a pub and the same two guys opening up with machine guns on each other. Might make little difference to them makes a vast difference to everyone around them.

[paul165]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Bah...again with this rubbish of "mage hate exist only because of the Chatnry". It doesn't.
People distrust and fear mages because tehy are dangerous.
And the chantry doesn't preach hate. One reverend mother or two don't make it an official Chantry stance.

Not once did I use the word "only".

1. Mages are dangerous, I never denied that, but their potential danger is proportional to, if not less than, their potential benefit to society if they were utilised properly.

2. The Chantry's rehtoric greatly overdramatises the situation, to the point of flat-out falsehood. It blames current mages for something that an unrelated group of people did thousands of years ago (if they even did it), and brands them as the source of all evil, which is false and wholly unnecessary.

A mundane tyrant is more easily disposed of.

And that makes thier actions okay?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Oh yes you do.
Do do it to templars and to the Chantry ALL THE TIME.

3. The Chantry and the Templars are formal organizations with strict beliefs and codes of behaviours that individuals have to willingly join. It's not the same thing as being born a mage, which individuals have no control over.

If you willingly join the Templars or the Chantry then it's a perfectly reasonable assumption that you support their reprehensible ideologies and behaviours. If you don't support them, then there is no good reason to join.

Last one honest...

1. Sure mages are useful if trained properly - a bit like nuclear power. If handled by professionals with lots of safe guards you have an amazing energy source otherwise you have a god awful mess. The Circles exist to provide training and research and to limit the damage when things go BOOM! Yes they don't always work perfectly but no mortal organisation does but the idea is solid.

2. Legacy appears to strongly suggest that at least part of the Chantry story is factually correct and I'm pretty sure that DAO has someone argue that the Chantry also protects the mages from the torches and pitchforks. From memory not even Meredith directly equates the destruction of the golden city with the people in the Circle - a cautionary tale sure but I don't remember seeing any evidence of the whole "blood libel" thing that you appear to suggest the Chantry holds as doctrine.

3. The Chantry is functionally the state religion you don't really join it you're born into it and like all good quasi-medieval societies most education is provided by the Church. There is no Thomas Jefferson or Chris Hitchens here there is the Chantry and nothing else.

Templars agree to live by a code sure it doesn't mean they think midwiping mages is a fun thing to do. Some Templars believe in the Circles, some believe that the Templars protect people, some probably just join up for the cool uniform.If all apostates are different so too are all Templars some are monsters sure but most of them aren't and tarring them all with the same brush doesn't help find a peaceful solution.

[DarthLaxian]

MisterJB wrote...

Having recently replayed Anders' starting quest in DA2 and having picked both options offered to me that allowed me to argue against Anders' viewpoint, I noticed that they both mentioned the risk of possession.
Now, while this is a very valid argument, I couldn't help but wish I could counter Anders' comparison of magic with a sword or a bow by pointing out that magic is capable of much greater destruction in the hands of a inexperienced child than a sword is in the hands of a trained adult.

I did not create this thread to fuel more Templar vs Mage flamewars; tough I fear that may be inevitable; but simply to humbly request for the writers of Bioware to create arguments for Pro-Templars players in DA3 that are not restricted to "Demons and Tevinter".

well, that's about it, yeah (and that's how it should be, because the templars imho should not have any - good - arguments for imprisoning a part of the population simply because they are born differently (that normal people need a way to defend against mages or someone to defend them from mages is ok, but not imprisoning people and taking their rights away...it is racism against a certain race (mages are a race - be they human or elf or something else))

face it, the templars themselves should leave the circles and start setting up many small outposts in the country (every village with a chantry should have some) and they should only fight/attack mages if they have done somthing wrong (say they attack the village, then the templars can react or say a mage slew a farmer, then the templars should be allowed to track that mage down)) everything else just clashes with morality and human rights (this is a human rights issue, because mages are more or less imprisoned slaves (slaves? - yes, they work for the circle, but the circles are more or less part of the chantry (!)) and slavery alone makes my skin crawl (!) but imprisoning the innocent (innocent until proven otherwise is the way law should be!) and taking their inborn rights away?

sorry: NO (ask the United Nations what they would think of doing something like that)

and the argument:

but they COULD (I stress that: COULD!!!) be dangerous - this is no way to argue, because say I could be dangerous, too. i could go and learn how to make bombs and blow **** up, but no one will say i (or somebody else) should be imprisoned for having the potential to wreck havoc, should they?

if yes, then please, lock yourself up and toss the key through the prison door, you can live inside your prison feeling safe that you will never harm the general public and the public can live free of your racism (sorry, i still is racism to me...like imprisoning the japanese-americans during WW-2 which was immoral and a bad decision!)

greetings LAX
ps: i do not want to start flamewar 2000 here, but civil/human rights issues kind of make me very passionate:devil:

Modifié par DarthLaxian, 22 novembre 2012 - 01:28 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...

Mages are dangerous, I never denied that, but their potential danger is proportional to, if not less than, their potential benefit to society if they were utilised properly. The Chantry's rehtoric greatly overdramatises the situation, to the point of flat-out falsehood. It blames current mages for something that an unrelated group of people did thousands of years ago (if they even did it), and brands them as the source of all evil, which is false and wholly unnecessary.

Except TheDas history has proven otherwise. Mages so far have never proven the benefot you speak of, and the danger is far greater than yo uare willing to admit.

And no, the Chatnry doesn't brand hte mages as the source of all evil. Your rethoric is more zealous than that.

A mundane tyrant is more easily disposed of.

And that makes thier actions okay?

Not at all.
But it does make them less dangerous.

However, humanity will always need leaders. Leaders will always have influence. That influence can be abused.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Oh yes you do.
Do do it to templars and to the Chantry ALL THE TIME.

The Chantry and the Templars are formal organizations with strict beliefs and codes of behaviours that individuals have to willingly join. It's not the same thing as being born a mage, which individuals have no control over.

If you willingly join the Templars or the Chantry then it's a perfectly reasonable assumption that you support their reprehensible ideologies and behaviours. If you don't support them, then there is no good reason to join.

And the purpose and the reasons for joining - those don't matter to you.
There is nothing reprehensable about their ideologies.

And b.t.w - I can condmen mages for what they are if I want. Their willingness doesn't have to factor into it, because that's not the reason anyone condemns them in the first place.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DarthLaxian wrote...

well, that's about it, yeah (and that's how it should be, because the templars imho should not have any - good - arguments for imprisoning a part of the population simply because they are born differently (that normal people need a way to defend against mages or someone to defend them from mages is ok, but not imprisoning people and taking their rights away...it is racism against a certain race (mages are a race - be they human or elf or something else))

If it is racism, it's JUSTIFIED racism. You may say there is no such thing. I beg to differ.

face it, the templars themselves should leave the circles and start setting up many small outposts in the country (every village with a chantry should have some) and they should only fight/attack mages if they have done somthing wrong (say they attack the village, then the templars can react or say a mage slew a farmer, then the templars should be allowed to track that mage down)) everything else just clashes with morality and human rights (this is a human rights issue, because mages are more or less imprisoned slaves (slaves? - yes, they work for the circle, but the circles are more or less part of the chantry (!)) and slavery alone makes my skin crawl (!) but imprisoning the innocent (innocent until proven otherwise is the way law should be!) and taking their inborn rights away?

Fantasies.
If mages are free the only result would be mroe death.

You talk about morals - and 100 people dying at the hands of a mage before the templars can stop it - where is morality there? Allowing such a thing to happen - knowing full well that it WILL happen - isn't that immoral?
No, withous segregating mages you cannot EFFECTIVELY protect the people.

Mages aren't slaves, they don't have it as bad as many here seem to think. They are better off than most commoners.

Also, inborn rights?
No such thing exist. It is a human fabrication. They exist only if we agree they exist...and even then not really.

sorry: NO (ask the United Nations what they would think of doing something like that)

If mages existed like in Thedas?
They'd do the same thing. Lock them up on some island or something.

but they COULD (I stress that: COULD!!!) be dangerous - this is no way to argue, because say I could be dangerous, too. i could go and learn how to make bombs and blow **** up, but no one will say i (or somebody else) should be imprisoned for having the potential to wreck havoc, should they?

Depends on the pontential.
Yours isn't no wher near that of a mage. An untrained mage CHILD can destroy a town. Can you?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Mages are dangerous, I never denied that, but their potential danger is proportional to, if not less than, their potential benefit to society if they were utilised properly. The Chantry's rehtoric greatly overdramatises the situation, to the point of flat-out falsehood. It blames current mages for something that an unrelated group of people did thousands of years ago (if they even did it), and brands them as the source of all evil, which is false and wholly unnecessary.

Except TheDas history has proven otherwise. Mages so far have never proven the benefot you speak of, and the danger is far greater than yo uare willing to admit.

The Joining, healing magic, blowing up the qunari, blowing up darkspawn. Am I missing anything?

But you're right about him understating the dangers.

And no, the Chatnry doesn't brand hte mages as the source of all evil. Your rethoric is more zealous than that.

Judging by Isolde and Ser Perth, they do.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Oh yes you do.
Do do it to templars and to the Chantry ALL THE TIME.

The Chantry and the Templars are formal organizations with strict beliefs and codes of behaviours that individuals have to willingly join. It's not the same thing as being born a mage, which individuals have no control over.

If you willingly join the Templars or the Chantry then it's a perfectly reasonable assumption that you support their reprehensible ideologies and behaviours. If you don't support them, then there is no good reason to join.

And the purpose and the reasons for joining - those don't matter to you.

Good point here. One possible reason is because whatever you think about the templars, they are neccesary, both to ensure that mages don't abuse their powers, and to protect people from abominations. Yet another is that they were unwillingly sent to the Chantry by a parent or guardian.

There is nothing reprehensable about their ideologies.

But not here. The original point to them, I believe, was to justify anything the nobles of Orlais tried to do. My impression is that they got into the Circle business partially to increase their power, partially because... well, as I've mentioned previously, somebody had to. And they're going overboard with that system.

And b.t.w - I can condmen mages for what they are if I want. Their willingness doesn't have to factor into it, because that's not the reason anyone condemns them in the first place.

I can't get behind condeming people for the way they were born.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 22 novembre 2012 - 03:49 .

[Rawgrim]

I belive Wynne gave some very good reasons for why mages should be trained and supervised. I don`t remember all the details, but it was from where she talked about her background. Setting a barn on fire, or somebodys hair.