373 réponses à ce sujet

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Rawgrim wrote...

I belive Wynne gave some very good reasons for why mages should be trained and supervised. I don`t remember all the details, but it was from where she talked about her background. Setting a barn on fire, or somebodys hair.

She didn't realize she was a mage, and accidentally set a bully's hair of fire. He wasn't hurt, but his parents still reacted by shoving her in a barn with woefully inadequate food until the templars came.

[Rawgrim]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

I belive Wynne gave some very good reasons for why mages should be trained and supervised. I don`t remember all the details, but it was from where she talked about her background. Setting a barn on fire, or somebodys hair.

She didn't realize she was a mage, and accidentally set a bully's hair of fire. He wasn't hurt, but his parents still reacted by shoving her in a barn with woefully inadequate food until the templars came.

Picture something like that happening late at night at a orphanage, or something. Could end rather badly.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
The Joining, healing magic, blowing up the qunari, blowing up darkspawn. Am I missing anything?

Joining? - it's jsut drinking Darkspawn blood. What do mages have to do with it? Nothing. Hmm..well, unless you count the darkspawn being a product of mages...
Blowing up qunari and darkspawn? Killing is something that humans can already do well.


But you're right about him understating the dangers.

Judging by Isolde and Ser Perth, they do.

And juding by extremists is always stupid.

And b.t.w - I can condmen mages for what they are if I want. Their willingness doesn't have to factor into it, because that's not the reason anyone condemns them in the first place.

I can't get behind condeming people for the way they were born.

Wether you can or not - it's your problem, not mine.
Condemning can be done on any grounds. You can argue if grounds X are more valid than ground Y, but mages are condemned because they can go postal against their will and wipe out an entire city, not because they different skin color.
Equating it to racism (as many here do) is idiotic.

[Plaintiff]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Except TheDas history has proven otherwise.

You mean the history written by the Chantry? 

Mages so far have never proven the benefot you speak of,

Their capability for healing alone far outstrips even our modern medecine. That should be more than enough.

and the danger is far greater than yo uare willing to admit.

I have yet to see any mage, or even any abomination for that matter, cause a great deal of damage without also having the added advantage of working uninterrupted for an extended period of time. The only thing that comes close to what you're decribing is Ander's nuke, and it still took a significant amount of effort and time to prepare even one.
 

And no, the Chatnry doesn't brand hte mages as the source of all evil. Your rethoric is more zealous than that.

It's right there in their precious chant of light. "Mages brought the darkspawn!", "Mages cause slavery!", etc etc. The first claim is still unproven and the second is just a deliberate lie.

Yet it never acknowledges the numerous works that mages have performed in the service of the Chantry, for the benefit of the Chantry.

And the purpose and the reasons for joining - those don't matter to you.

Not even slightly. I also don't care about an individual's personal reasons for joining the KKK. You gonna complain about that too?

There's no good reason for joining the Chantry or the Templars if you don't support their vile beliefs. The scant good works they do can be performed independently. You don't need the Chantry's permission to take in orphans or collect donations for the homeless. They don't appear to do much of that anyway.
 

There is nothing reprehensable about their ideologies.

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with imprisoning people for crimes they haven't committed, or feeding soldiers an addictive drug to force them to stay in your service, or denying endlessly renewable energy and inexpensive healing to the public, or keeping the practice of Templar training secret, so that everyone is forced to rely on you for protection, or using religious dogma to justify war.

And that's just off the top of my head. There's probably more.

And b.t.w - I can condmen mages for what they are if I want. Their willingness doesn't have to factor into it, because that's not the reason anyone condemns them in the first place.

I never said you couldn't be a bigot if you wanted. Knock yourself out.

[Plaintiff]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

I belive Wynne gave some very good reasons for why mages should be trained and supervised. I don`t remember all the details, but it was from where she talked about her background. Setting a barn on fire, or somebodys hair.

She didn't realize she was a mage, and accidentally set a bully's hair of fire. He wasn't hurt, but his parents still reacted by shoving her in a barn with woefully inadequate food until the templars came.

One less dip**** in the world sounds like a net gain for the people of Thedas to me.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
The Joining, healing magic, blowing up the qunari, blowing up darkspawn. Am I missing anything?

Joining? - it's jsut drinking Darkspawn blood. What do mages have to do with it? Nothing. Hmm..well, unless you count the darkspawn being a product of mages...

No, it's not. It requires a preparation ritual, which Alistair-the-ex-templar states requires mages. If you just drink straight from the tap, you turn into a ghoul.

Blowing up qunari and darkspawn? Killing is something that humans can already do well.

Iirc, until the mages got involved, Thedas was losing. The qunari have cannons, remember?

Judging by Isolde and Ser Perth, they do.

And juding by extremists is always stupid.

Ser Perth isn't actually an extremist.

And b.t.w - I can condmen mages for what they are if I want. Their willingness doesn't have to factor into it, because that's not the reason anyone condemns them in the first place.

I can't get behind condeming people for the way they were born.

Wether you can or not - it's your problem, not mine.
Condemning can be done on any grounds. You can argue if grounds X are more valid than ground Y, but mages are condemned because they can go postal against their will and wipe out an entire city, not because they different skin color.
Equating it to racism (as many here do) is idiotic.

Unlike some of the people here, I adknowledge that mages can go postal against their will. If they want to, they should be condemned. If they don't, they should be pitied, and put down if and only if circumstances require. Ie, if and only if they're already going postal or an unacceptable risk of such.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 22 novembre 2012 - 04:29 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Plaintiff wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

I belive Wynne gave some very good reasons for why mages should be trained and supervised. I don`t remember all the details, but it was from where she talked about her background. Setting a barn on fire, or somebodys hair.

She didn't realize she was a mage, and accidentally set a bully's hair of fire. He wasn't hurt, but his parents still reacted by shoving her in a barn with woefully inadequate food until the templars came.

One less dip**** in the world sounds like a net gain for the people of Thedas to me.

He was a kid. If he was still a dip#($* a decade or two later, that would be rather a problem, but kids are naturally dip(#*@s.

[Zardoc]

DarthLaxian wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Having recently replayed Anders' starting quest in DA2 and having picked both options offered to me that allowed me to argue against Anders' viewpoint, I noticed that they both mentioned the risk of possession.
Now, while this is a very valid argument, I couldn't help but wish I could counter Anders' comparison of magic with a sword or a bow by pointing out that magic is capable of much greater destruction in the hands of a inexperienced child than a sword is in the hands of a trained adult.

I did not create this thread to fuel more Templar vs Mage flamewars; tough I fear that may be inevitable; but simply to humbly request for the writers of Bioware to create arguments for Pro-Templars players in DA3 that are not restricted to "Demons and Tevinter".

well, that's about it, yeah (and that's how it should be, because the templars imho should not have any - good - arguments for imprisoning a part of the population simply because they are born differently (that normal people need a way to defend against mages or someone to defend them from mages is ok, but not imprisoning people and taking their rights away...it is racism against a certain race (mages are a race - be they human or elf or something else))

face it, the templars themselves should leave the circles and start setting up many small outposts in the country (every village with a chantry should have some) and they should only fight/attack mages if they have done somthing wrong (say they attack the village, then the templars can react or say a mage slew a farmer, then the templars should be allowed to track that mage down)) everything else just clashes with morality and human rights (this is a human rights issue, because mages are more or less imprisoned slaves (slaves? - yes, they work for the circle, but the circles are more or less part of the chantry (!)) and slavery alone makes my skin crawl (!) but imprisoning the innocent (innocent until proven otherwise is the way law should be!) and taking their inborn rights away?

sorry: NO (ask the United Nations what they would think of doing something like that)

and the argument:

but they COULD (I stress that: COULD!!!) be dangerous - this is no way to argue, because say I could be dangerous, too. i could go and learn how to make bombs and blow **** up, but no one will say i (or somebody else) should be imprisoned for having the potential to wreck havoc, should they?

if yes, then please, lock yourself up and toss the key through the prison door, you can live inside your prison feeling safe that you will never harm the general public and the public can live free of your racism (sorry, i still is racism to me...like imprisoning the japanese-americans during WW-2 which was immoral and a bad decision!)

greetings LAX
ps: i do not want to start flamewar 2000 here, but civil/human rights issues kind of make me very passionate:devil:

It's not that they could be a danger, it's that they are a danger if not properly trained. Not just because they can't control their abilities, but rather because they are easy prey for demons. It's reason enough to "lock them up". Trying the old "well, if they might be a danger you might be a danger so why aren't you locked up" card is also rather dumb, seeing how a mundane can't a) accidentally set someone on fire, or worse, be possessed by a demon or c) do all of the above, but intentionally.

And let me just say that it is absolutely retarded to try and bring modern day morals and /or values and regulations into this debate. For one, they don't even properly apply to mages in the first place. Second, mages are not slaves. At all. They have homes, education, safety, food, friends and a soft bed. A slave has none of those.

May I remind you that Anders ran from the Circle !seven! times, without any consequences? A slave tries to run once and he's done.

Modifié par Zardoc, 22 novembre 2012 - 05:01 .

[Plaintiff]

Zardoc wrote...
And let me just say that it is absolutely retarded to try and bring modern day morals and /or values and regulations into this debate. For one, they don't even properly apply to mages in the first place. Second, mages are not slaves. At all. They have homes, education, safety, food, friends and a soft bed. A slave has none of those.

Of course they apply. The game is intended for a modern audience and many aspects of the Dragon Age setting are more closely related to modern society than they are to the medieval period from which its aesthetic is derived.

What a slave does or does not have is entirely contingent on what their master allows them. A kind one might well give his slaves all of the things you listed, but they would still be slaves.

May I remind you that Anders ran from the Circle !seven! times, without any consequences? A slave tries to run once and he's done.

Aneirin ran away once, got run through and was left for dead.

Anders suffered an extended period of solitary confinement. How the hell is that not a consequence? It can be severely damaging in a mental and emotional sense.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 22 novembre 2012 - 05:05 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Plaintiff wrote...

I have yet to see any mage, or even any abomination for that matter, cause a great deal of damage without also having the added advantage of working uninterrupted for an extended period of time. The only thing that comes close to what you're decribing is Ander's nuke, and it still took a significant amount of effort and time to prepare even one.

I get the feeling many people take near-instantaneous communication and fast travel for granted. Unless you plan on having all mages watched at all times by sufficient forces to put them down at a moment's notice, you're going to have to depend on messengers (or pigeons, I guess) to pass that information along. No cell phones, no telephones, no magical forms of communication outside of the extremely expensive sending stones that only exist at the Circles.

They have to depend on a messenger (or pigeon) to go and notify the authorities, and then the authorities to provide a real response - gather troops, and transport those troops to the location to hunt down the abomination. So we're talking about days before a response at the very minimum. That's plenty of time for an abomination to kill dozens of people unhindered.

[Plaintiff]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I have yet to see any mage, or even any abomination for that matter, cause a great deal of damage without also having the added advantage of working uninterrupted for an extended period of time. The only thing that comes close to what you're decribing is Ander's nuke, and it still took a significant amount of effort and time to prepare even one.

I get the feeling many people take near-instantaneous communication and fast travel for granted. Unless you plan on having all mages watched at all times by sufficient forces to put them down at a moment's notice, you're going to have to depend on messengers (or pigeons, I guess) to pass that information along. No cell phones, no telephones, no magical forms of communication outside of the extremely expensive sending stones that only exist at the Circles.

They have to depend on a messenger (or pigeon) to go and notify the authorities, and then the authorities to provide a real response - gather troops, and transport those troops to the location to hunt down the abomination. So we're talking about days before a response at the very minimum. That's plenty of time for an abomination to kill dozens of people unhindered.

Precisely.

I doubt, for instance, that Connor could've done the damage he did if it weren't for the fact that the bulk of Redcliffe's fighting forces were scattered across Thedas, looking for Andraste's ashes, leaving untrained villagers to fend for themselves. Or that Uldred could've done what he did without significant planning in advance and the help of several lackeys. And from the conversation with Greagoir, I got the impression that he'd been keeping the tower sealed for at least several days.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 22 novembre 2012 - 05:14 .

[paul165]

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Except TheDas history has proven otherwise.[/quote]
You mean the history written by the Chantry? [/quote]

You have another history to use? Besides Legacy strongly suggests at least some of it is factually accurate as does the ashes quest in DAO

[quote]Mages so far have never proven the benefot you speak of,[/quote]
Their capability for healing alone far outstrips even our modern medecine. That should be more than enough.

Then who gets it because healing is not infinite so odds are high that the people who get healed will be nobles, mages, priests and merchants ie those who can pay for it. Much like it is in the Circle system really except it might be harder to find a healer.
[quote]and the danger is far greater than yo uare willing to admit.[/quote]
I have yet to see any mage, or even any abomination for that matter, cause a great deal of damage without also having the added advantage of working uninterrupted for an extended period of time. The only thing that comes close to what you're decribing is Ander's nuke, and it still took a significant amount of effort and time to prepare even one.
 
Act Three of DA2 Kirkwall would disagree with the "significant damage" part as would the abomination that the head mage turned into. Anders took significant amounts of time working on his own, in the sewers, with limited resources. How long it would take with an organised, resourced group may be an entirely different animal.
[quote]And no, the Chatnry doesn't brand hte mages as the source of all evil. Your rethoric is more zealous than that.[/quote]
It's right there in their precious chant of light. "Mages brought the darkspawn!", "Mages cause slavery!", etc etc. The first claim is still unproven and the second is just a deliberate lie.

Yet it never acknowledges the numerous works that mages have performed in the service of the Chantry, for the benefit of the Chantry.

Didn't I discuss this earlier hang on here we go:

2. Legacy appears to strongly suggest that at least part of the Chantry
story is factually correct and I'm pretty sure that DAO has someone
argue that the Chantry also protects the mages from the torches and
pitchforks. From memory not even Meredith directly equates the
destruction of the golden city with the people in the Circle - a
cautionary tale sure but I don't remember seeing any evidence of the
whole "blood libel" thing that you appear to suggest the Chantry holds
as doctrine.

Also mages don't cause slavery of course. Power cause slavery and without oversight mages are significantly more powerful than your average peasant making it easy for mages to enslave them. But no magic doesn't cause slavery anymore than guns kill people - it's just easier.

[quote]And the purpose and the reasons for joining - those don't matter to you.[/quote]
Not even slightly. I also don't care about an individual's personal reasons for joining the KKK. You gonna complain about that too?

There's no good reason for joining the Chantry or the Templars if you don't support their vile beliefs. The scant good works they do can be performed independently. You don't need the Chantry's permission to take in orphans or collect donations for the homeless. They don't appear to do much of that anyway.


And this one:

3. The Chantry is functionally the state religion you don't really join
it you're born into it and like all good quasi-medieval societies most
education is provided by the Church. There is no Thomas Jefferson or
Chris Hitchens here there is the Chantry and nothing else.

Templars
agree to live by a code sure it doesn't mean they think midwiping mages
is a fun thing to do. Some Templars believe in the Circles, some
believe that the Templars protect people, some probably just join up for
the cool uniform.If all apostates are different so too are all Templars
some are monsters sure but most of them aren't and tarring them all
with the same brush doesn't help find a peaceful solution.
 
[quote]There is nothing reprehensable about their ideologies.[/quote]
Yeah, there's nothing wrong with imprisoning people for crimes they haven't committed, or feeding soldiers an addictive drug to force them to stay in your service, or denying endlessly renewable energy and inexpensive healing to the public, or keeping the practice of Templar training secret, so that everyone is forced to rely on you for protection, or using religious dogma to justify war.

And that's just off the top of my head. There's probably more.

As opposed to using people as a power source, desicrating the dead to use them against your enemies and mind raping people? I can play that game as well and it's just as silly if I do it. Also endlessly renewable energy - Mages have invented Fusion power now have they? Because if they haven't I have no idea what you are referring to there. Also the healing will be as expensive as the market will tolerate.

[quote]And b.t.w - I can condmen mages for what they are if I want. Their willingness doesn't have to factor into it, because that's not the reason anyone condemns them in the first place.[/quote]
I never said you couldn't be a bigot if you wanted. Knock yourself out.[/quote]

classy. No really. Also the whole discrimination against mages is racism thing is completely stupid. "Mage" is not a race "mage" is a skill set like "demolitions expert" or "nuclear physicist" and yes governments tend to monitor those with that particular variety of skills very closely. Even more so if that skill set comes with a inbuilt temptation to turn against humanity.

[Rawgrim]

Plaintiff wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

I belive Wynne gave some very good reasons for why mages should be trained and supervised. I don`t remember all the details, but it was from where she talked about her background. Setting a barn on fire, or somebodys hair.

She didn't realize she was a mage, and accidentally set a bully's hair of fire. He wasn't hurt, but his parents still reacted by shoving her in a barn with woefully inadequate food until the templars came.

One less dip**** in the world sounds like a net gain for the people of Thedas to me.

So harming a child is ok, if he doesn`t have the right personality?

Modifié par Rawgrim, 22 novembre 2012 - 05:21 .

[paul165]

Plaintiff wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I have yet to see any mage, or even any abomination for that matter, cause a great deal of damage without also having the added advantage of working uninterrupted for an extended period of time. The only thing that comes close to what you're decribing is Ander's nuke, and it still took a significant amount of effort and time to prepare even one.

I get the feeling many people take near-instantaneous communication and fast travel for granted. Unless you plan on having all mages watched at all times by sufficient forces to put them down at a moment's notice, you're going to have to depend on messengers (or pigeons, I guess) to pass that information along. No cell phones, no telephones, no magical forms of communication outside of the extremely expensive sending stones that only exist at the Circles.

They have to depend on a messenger (or pigeon) to go and notify the authorities, and then the authorities to provide a real response - gather troops, and transport those troops to the location to hunt down the abomination. So we're talking about days before a response at the very minimum. That's plenty of time for an abomination to kill dozens of people unhindered.

Precisely.

I doubt, for instance, that Connor could've done the damage he did if it weren't for the fact that the bulk of Redcliffe's fighting forces were scattered across Thedas, looking for Andraste's ashes, leaving untrained villagers to fend for themselves. Or that Uldred could've done what he did without significant planning in advance and the help of several lackeys. And from the conversation with Greagoir, I got the impression that he'd been keeping the tower sealed for at least several days.

You realise that argument doesn't support your position right? It is an argument in favour of the Circles rather scattering mages to the four winds where it takes too much time to respond to any problems.

Also I'm sure it was a great reassurance to all those innocents Conner murdered that it took him a few days to do it. It's also a great argument in favour of the Circles because had he been in a Circle where he should have been this would never have happened.

[Rawgrim]

paul165 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I have yet to see any mage, or even any abomination for that matter, cause a great deal of damage without also having the added advantage of working uninterrupted for an extended period of time. The only thing that comes close to what you're decribing is Ander's nuke, and it still took a significant amount of effort and time to prepare even one.

I get the feeling many people take near-instantaneous communication and fast travel for granted. Unless you plan on having all mages watched at all times by sufficient forces to put them down at a moment's notice, you're going to have to depend on messengers (or pigeons, I guess) to pass that information along. No cell phones, no telephones, no magical forms of communication outside of the extremely expensive sending stones that only exist at the Circles.

They have to depend on a messenger (or pigeon) to go and notify the authorities, and then the authorities to provide a real response - gather troops, and transport those troops to the location to hunt down the abomination. So we're talking about days before a response at the very minimum. That's plenty of time for an abomination to kill dozens of people unhindered.

Precisely.

I doubt, for instance, that Connor could've done the damage he did if it weren't for the fact that the bulk of Redcliffe's fighting forces were scattered across Thedas, looking for Andraste's ashes, leaving untrained villagers to fend for themselves. Or that Uldred could've done what he did without significant planning in advance and the help of several lackeys. And from the conversation with Greagoir, I got the impression that he'd been keeping the tower sealed for at least several days.

You realise that argument doesn't support your position right? It is an argument in favour of the Circles rather scattering mages to the four winds where it takes too much time to respond to any problems.

Also I'm sure it was a great reassurance to all those innocents Conner murdered that it took him a few days to do it. It's also a great argument in favour of the Circles because had he been in a Circle where he should have been this would never have happened.

Spot on.

[hoorayforicecream]

Plaintiff wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I have yet to see any mage, or even any abomination for that matter, cause a great deal of damage without also having the added advantage of working uninterrupted for an extended period of time. The only thing that comes close to what you're decribing is Ander's nuke, and it still took a significant amount of effort and time to prepare even one.

I get the feeling many people take near-instantaneous communication and fast travel for granted. Unless you plan on having all mages watched at all times by sufficient forces to put them down at a moment's notice, you're going to have to depend on messengers (or pigeons, I guess) to pass that information along. No cell phones, no telephones, no magical forms of communication outside of the extremely expensive sending stones that only exist at the Circles.

They have to depend on a messenger (or pigeon) to go and notify the authorities, and then the authorities to provide a real response - gather troops, and transport those troops to the location to hunt down the abomination. So we're talking about days before a response at the very minimum. That's plenty of time for an abomination to kill dozens of people unhindered.

Precisely.

I doubt, for instance, that Connor could've done the damage he did if it weren't for the fact that the bulk of Redcliffe's fighting forces were scattered across Thedas, looking for Andraste's ashes, leaving untrained villagers to fend for themselves. Or that Uldred could've done what he did without much significant advanced planning and the help of several lackeys. And from the conversation with Greagoir, I got the impression that he'd been keeping the tower sealed for at least several days.

You misunderstand. This is the norm, not the exception. According to lore, Redcliffe's forces wouldn't have been able to do much against an abomination, not before it slew dozens of them. They'd have been dominated or killed just like the civilians. The reason the templars exist is because of their abilities can stand against (non-blood) magic. If there wasn't a need for magically-resistant soldiers to begin with, they would have much less need to found the templar order.

If a mage were in a village like Honnleath and abomified, it would have free reign until a messenger reached the templars and they mounted a sufficient force to kill it. This could take days of travel time, during which the people of the village would most likely all be slaughtered to a man. This is exactly what happened with Meredith's sister - she was a mage of weak ability, and everyone thought she'd be alright if left alone. Then she turned into an abomination and killed seventy people before the templars arrived to put her down. 

[Plaintiff]

paul165 wrote...

You have another history to use? Besides Legacy strongly suggests at least some of it is factually accurate as does the ashes quest in DAO

No, and that's precisely the problem. History, typically being written by only one side, is inherently biased and so should be read with that in mind.

Legacy is irrelevent, the Chantry is not aware of Corypheus's existence, so they still have no evidence whatsoever.

Then who gets it because healing is not infinite so odds are high that the people who get healed will be nobles, mages, priests and merchants ie those who can pay for it. Much like it is in the Circle system really except it might be harder to find a healer.

With enough healers to allow sufficient rest-time, healing capability could easily be infinite. THey simply need to set up a better infrastructure for distribution. Maybe set up permanent healing facilities near smaller settlements like Redcliffe. 
 

Act Three of DA2 Kirkwall would disagree with the "significant damage" part as would the abomination that the head mage turned into. Anders took significant amounts of time working on his own, in the sewers, with limited resources. How long it would take with an organised, resourced group may be an entirely different animal.

It was still just one (admittedly large) building. Hardly the world-shattering apocalypse you're all leading me to expect.

Uldred and his cronies also had plenty of time to enact their plan, with the added benefit of surprise. Greagoir shut them in and left them to their own devices while awaiting the Right of Annullment. If he had acted immediatly instead, the situation might have been salvageable.

Tarohne and her pals schemed for who knows how long, and, as far as we can see, only acheived one successful templar possession.

As opposed to using people as a power source, desicrating the dead to use them against your enemies and mind raping people? I can play that game as well and it's just as silly if I do it. Also endlessly renewable energy - Mages have invented Fusion power now have they? Because if they haven't I have no idea what you are referring to there. Also the healing will be as expensive as the market will tolerate.

The difference is that all the things I listed are core practices of the Chantry system, and are basically required in order for it to run the way it does. The things you listed are the actions of individuals, and not indicative of the behaviour of mages as a whole.

Magic is the endlessly renewable energy to which I was referring. It has endless possible applications and mages need only rest in order to refuel.

Anders provided his services for free. I'm sure there are plenty of other mages who are just as altruistic

classy. No really. Also the whole discrimination against mages is racism thing is completely stupid. "Mage" is not a race "mage" is a skill set like "demolitions expert" or "nuclear physicist" and yes governments tend to monitor those with that particular variety of skills very closely. Even more so if that skill set comes with a inbuilt temptation to turn against humanity.

I said "bigotry", not "racism". "Homosexual" isn't a race either, but discriminating against homosexuals is still bigotry. And I'm pretty sure the government allows its nuclear physicists to have their own homes and families.

There is no in-built temptation, that's nonsense. Mages are not programmed to be jerks any more than the rest of humanity.

[Rawgrim]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I have yet to see any mage, or even any abomination for that matter, cause a great deal of damage without also having the added advantage of working uninterrupted for an extended period of time. The only thing that comes close to what you're decribing is Ander's nuke, and it still took a significant amount of effort and time to prepare even one.

I get the feeling many people take near-instantaneous communication and fast travel for granted. Unless you plan on having all mages watched at all times by sufficient forces to put them down at a moment's notice, you're going to have to depend on messengers (or pigeons, I guess) to pass that information along. No cell phones, no telephones, no magical forms of communication outside of the extremely expensive sending stones that only exist at the Circles.

They have to depend on a messenger (or pigeon) to go and notify the authorities, and then the authorities to provide a real response - gather troops, and transport those troops to the location to hunt down the abomination. So we're talking about days before a response at the very minimum. That's plenty of time for an abomination to kill dozens of people unhindered.

Precisely.

I doubt, for instance, that Connor could've done the damage he did if it weren't for the fact that the bulk of Redcliffe's fighting forces were scattered across Thedas, looking for Andraste's ashes, leaving untrained villagers to fend for themselves. Or that Uldred could've done what he did without much significant advanced planning and the help of several lackeys. And from the conversation with Greagoir, I got the impression that he'd been keeping the tower sealed for at least several days.

You misunderstand. This is the norm, not the exception. According to lore, Redcliffe's forces wouldn't have been able to do much against an abomination, not before it slew dozens of them. They'd have been dominated or killed just like the civilians. The reason the templars exist is because of their abilities can stand against (non-blood) magic. If there wasn't a need for magically-resistant soldiers to begin with, they would have much less need to found the templar order.

If a mage were in a village like Honnleath and abomified, it would have free reign until a messenger reached the templars and they mounted a sufficient force to kill it. This could take days of travel time, during which the people of the village would most likely all be slaughtered to a man. This is exactly what happened with Meredith's sister - she was a mage of weak ability, and everyone thought she'd be alright if left alone. Then she turned into an abomination and killed seventy people before the templars arrived to put her down. 

You just shot down every counter-argument with that post. Good work.

[Plaintiff]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
You misunderstand. This is the norm, not the exception. According to lore, Redcliffe's forces wouldn't have been able to do much against an abomination, not before it slew dozens of them. They'd have been dominated or killed just like the civilians. The reason the templars exist is because of their abilities can stand against (non-blood) magic. If there wasn't a need for magically-resistant soldiers to begin with, they would have much less need to found the templar order.

If a mage were in a village like Honnleath and abomified, it would have free reign until a messenger reached the templars and they mounted a sufficient force to kill it. This could take days of travel time, during which the people of the village would most likely all be slaughtered to a man. This is exactly what happened with Meredith's sister - she was a mage of weak ability, and everyone thought she'd be alright if left alone. Then she turned into an abomination and killed seventy people before the templars arrived to put her down. 

I don't see how this disputes my point? These mages and abominations are still being left unchecked for extended periods of time. Quicker reaction means less damage. If the infrastructure doesn't exist to allow that, then I guess the Chantry had better start working on it. That it took them this long is already inexcusable.

Lore is just what's been written down, usually by a biased source. I don't see any evidence to support the oft-claimed notion that the Templars are so much more helpful than a regular fighting force. When they're actually present, they're hardly any help at all. My characters and party members have few, if any templar skills, but they still handle the situation just fine, and I don't see any compelling reason to simply handwave that as gameplay/story segregation. Maybe if the NPCs were actually doing anything prior to the protagonist's intervention, but they're simply not.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 22 novembre 2012 - 05:50 .

[Rawgrim]

Plaintiff wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...
You misunderstand. This is the norm, not the exception. According to lore, Redcliffe's forces wouldn't have been able to do much against an abomination, not before it slew dozens of them. They'd have been dominated or killed just like the civilians. The reason the templars exist is because of their abilities can stand against (non-blood) magic. If there wasn't a need for magically-resistant soldiers to begin with, they would have much less need to found the templar order.

If a mage were in a village like Honnleath and abomified, it would have free reign until a messenger reached the templars and they mounted a sufficient force to kill it. This could take days of travel time, during which the people of the village would most likely all be slaughtered to a man. This is exactly what happened with Meredith's sister - she was a mage of weak ability, and everyone thought she'd be alright if left alone. Then she turned into an abomination and killed seventy people before the templars arrived to put her down. 

I don't see how this disputes my point? These mages and abominations are still being left unchecked for extended periods of time. Quicker reaction means less damage. If the infrastructure doesn't exist to allow that, then I guess the Chantry had better start working on it. That it took them this long is already inexcusable.

Lore is just what's been written down, usually by a biased source. I don't see any evidence to support the oft-claimed notion that the Templars are so much more helpful than a regular fighting force. When they're actually present, they're hardly any help at all. My characters and party members have few, if any templar skills, but they still handle the situation just fine, and I don't see any compelling reason to simply handwave that as gameplay/story segregation. Maybe if the NPCs were actually doing anything prior to the protagonist's intervention, but they're simply not.

Your party-members arn`t normal people at all. They are exceptional. The devs even said this. Thats why they can handle things like this with relative ease.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Except TheDas history has proven otherwise.[/quote]
You mean the history written by the Chantry? [/quote]

I mean the history of TheDas.
Too bad you cannot accept it simply because it is penned by a Chantry schoolar.

Unfortunately for you ALL nations pretty much agree that abominations are the worst thing ever.


[quote]
Their capability for healing alone far outstrips even our modern medecine. That should be more than enough.[/quote]

Even among mages healing is rare, it is limited..and no, it is NOT enough.


[quote]
I have yet to see any mage, or even any abomination for that matter, cause a great deal of damage without also having the added advantage of working uninterrupted for an extended period of time. The only thing that comes close to what you're decribing is Ander's nuke, and it still took a significant amount of effort and time to prepare even one.[/quote]

And you assume it needs great deal of time uninterrupted? (something that with your plan to let all mages go free they WILL have)
I won't argue that they become more dangerous with time, by the very nature that they can tear the veil more and bring more undead. But even a single abomination is a great danger.
 

[quote]
It's right there in their precious chant of light. "Mages brought the darkspawn!", "Mages cause slavery!", etc etc. The first claim is still unproven and the second is just a deliberate lie.[/quote]

Mages brought down the darkspawn - as far as TheDas is concerned it is the truth. You might moan about not seeing any evidence yourself, but no one is asking you.
And the corrpting nature of magic (especially magic) makes the second one a very likely prospect.



[quote]
[quote]And the purpose and the reasons for joining - those don't matter to you.[/quote]
Not even slightly. I also don't care about an individual's personal reasons for joining the KKK. You gonna complain about that too? [/quote]

The very fact that you treat the KKK and Chantry as equal speaks volumes.

But reasons matter. Reasons ALWAYS matter. Hell, most soldiers in the Wermacht were normal, decent people.
Templars don't join to bully mages - they join to protect the people. A noble goal.

And to follow your logic - if you dont' care about the templars reasons, why should I care about the mages reasons for rebelling? Why should I care for anders reasons?
They move agaisnt the Circles. They are guilty of treason.
According to you, there is nothing else I need to know. Off with their heads.


[quote]
There's no good reason for joining the Chantry or the Templars if you don't support their vile beliefs.[/qutoe]

There is. Protecting the innocents. Helping people. Healing. Teaching.
The belifes of the Chantry are vile only to you.

[quote]
The scant good works they do can be performed independently. You don't need the Chantry's permission to take in orphans or collect donations for the homeless. They don't appear to do much of that anyway. [/quote]

Who is now deliberately diminshing the good the other side is doing? That would be you.
Ironicly how you remind me of the worst templars.
Your hipocrisy cannot be measured. It is off the charts. Together wihout your zealousness.
 

[quote]
Yeah, there's nothing wrong with imprisoning people for crimes they haven't committed, or feeding soldiers an addictive drug to force them to stay in your service, or denying endlessly renewable energy and inexpensive healing to the public, or keeping the practice of Templar training secret, so that everyone is forced to rely on you for protection, or using religious dogma to justify war.[/quote]

LOL.
No one is imprisoning mages for crimes they haven't commited. Again, you ascribe your own motivation and twist words to paint a picture that you have in your head.
Endelss renewable energy? Healing? HA. I'd like to see you prove that.
You amuse me.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Joining? - it's jsut drinking Darkspawn blood. What do mages have to do with it? Nothing. Hmm..well, unless you count the darkspawn being a product of mages... [/quote]

No, it's not. It requires a preparation ritual, which Alistair-the-ex-templar states requires mages. If you just drink straight from the tap, you turn into a ghoul.[/quote]

No, it only requires the ritual (which is addition of lyrium) if the darkspawn blood doesn't have enough potency of taint.
If it's archdemon blood, you drink it without anything.


[quote]
Iirc, until the mages got involved, Thedas was losing. The qunari have cannons, remember?[/qutoe]

No, it wasn't loosing. It was a stalemate.

[Plaintiff]

paul165 wrote...
You realise that argument doesn't support your position right? It is an argument in favour of the Circles rather scattering mages to the four winds where it takes too much time to respond to any problems.

You don't actually understand my argument. At no point ever did I say that I supported anything like what you're suggesting. Glass houses.

Also I'm sure it was a great reassurance to all those innocents Conner murdered that it took him a few days to do it. It's also a great argument in favour of the Circles because had he been in a Circle where he should have been this would never have happened.

Because the Circles we've seen so far have been doing a bang-up job, am I right?

[Rawgrim]

I think certain people haven`t paid too much attention to the codex, and lore details in the two games. Alot of the arguments just contradict in-game information. Or ignores it.

[Plaintiff]

Rawgrim wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...
You misunderstand. This is the norm, not the exception. According to lore, Redcliffe's forces wouldn't have been able to do much against an abomination, not before it slew dozens of them. They'd have been dominated or killed just like the civilians. The reason the templars exist is because of their abilities can stand against (non-blood) magic. If there wasn't a need for magically-resistant soldiers to begin with, they would have much less need to found the templar order.

If a mage were in a village like Honnleath and abomified, it would have free reign until a messenger reached the templars and they mounted a sufficient force to kill it. This could take days of travel time, during which the people of the village would most likely all be slaughtered to a man. This is exactly what happened with Meredith's sister - she was a mage of weak ability, and everyone thought she'd be alright if left alone. Then she turned into an abomination and killed seventy people before the templars arrived to put her down. 

I don't see how this disputes my point? These mages and abominations are still being left unchecked for extended periods of time. Quicker reaction means less damage. If the infrastructure doesn't exist to allow that, then I guess the Chantry had better start working on it. That it took them this long is already inexcusable.

Lore is just what's been written down, usually by a biased source. I don't see any evidence to support the oft-claimed notion that the Templars are so much more helpful than a regular fighting force. When they're actually present, they're hardly any help at all. My characters and party members have few, if any templar skills, but they still handle the situation just fine, and I don't see any compelling reason to simply handwave that as gameplay/story segregation. Maybe if the NPCs were actually doing anything prior to the protagonist's intervention, but they're simply not.

Your party-members arn`t normal people at all. They are exceptional. The devs even said this. Thats why they can handle things like this with relative ease.

Exceptional how? With the exception of Morrigan's shapeshifting, their skills are hardly unique.