373 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...

Zardoc wrote...
And let me just say that it is absolutely retarded to try and bring modern day morals and /or values and regulations into this debate. For one, they don't even properly apply to mages in the first place. Second, mages are not slaves. At all. They have homes, education, safety, food, friends and a soft bed. A slave has none of those.

Of course they apply. The game is intended for a modern audience and many aspects of the Dragon Age setting are more closely related to modern society than they are to the medieval period from which its aesthetic is derived.

No, they don't.
The situation, the culture, the technology - nothing is like in our world.

Aneirin ran away once, got run through and was left for dead.

So?

Anders suffered an extended period of solitary confinement. How the hell is that not a consequence? It can be severely damaging in a mental and emotional sense.

So? Serves him right.
He is lucky to be alive.

[Rawgrim]

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...
You misunderstand. This is the norm, not the exception. According to lore, Redcliffe's forces wouldn't have been able to do much against an abomination, not before it slew dozens of them. They'd have been dominated or killed just like the civilians. The reason the templars exist is because of their abilities can stand against (non-blood) magic. If there wasn't a need for magically-resistant soldiers to begin with, they would have much less need to found the templar order.

If a mage were in a village like Honnleath and abomified, it would have free reign until a messenger reached the templars and they mounted a sufficient force to kill it. This could take days of travel time, during which the people of the village would most likely all be slaughtered to a man. This is exactly what happened with Meredith's sister - she was a mage of weak ability, and everyone thought she'd be alright if left alone. Then she turned into an abomination and killed seventy people before the templars arrived to put her down. 

I don't see how this disputes my point? These mages and abominations are still being left unchecked for extended periods of time. Quicker reaction means less damage. If the infrastructure doesn't exist to allow that, then I guess the Chantry had better start working on it. That it took them this long is already inexcusable.

Lore is just what's been written down, usually by a biased source. I don't see any evidence to support the oft-claimed notion that the Templars are so much more helpful than a regular fighting force. When they're actually present, they're hardly any help at all. My characters and party members have few, if any templar skills, but they still handle the situation just fine, and I don't see any compelling reason to simply handwave that as gameplay/story segregation. Maybe if the NPCs were actually doing anything prior to the protagonist's intervention, but they're simply not.

Your party-members arn`t normal people at all. They are exceptional. The devs even said this. Thats why they can handle things like this with relative ease.

Exceptional how? With the exception of Morrigan's shapeshifting, their skills are hardly unique.

Exceptional in a way that they are way more skilled and capable, than the average soldier. Like James Bond, or John Rambo etc.

[Plaintiff]

Rawgrim wrote...

I think certain people haven`t paid too much attention to the codex, and lore details in the two games. Alot of the arguments just contradict in-game information. Or ignores it.

Lore is not an unbiased source and can even be wrong.

If there is important information pertaining to a situation, then it should be presented directly to the player, not tucked away in some poorly-organized mess of other fictional documents.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...
I doubt, for instance, that Connor could've done the damage he did if it weren't for the fact that the bulk of Redcliffe's fighting forces were scattered across Thedas, looking for Andraste's ashes, leaving untrained villagers to fend for themselves. Or that Uldred could've done what he did without significant planning in advance and the help of several lackeys. And from the conversation with Greagoir, I got the impression that he'd been keeping the tower sealed for at least several days.

Except we know from the codexes that abominations can take on smaller armies.

Gampley is NOT any indication of their true power.

[Rawgrim]

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

I think certain people haven`t paid too much attention to the codex, and lore details in the two games. Alot of the arguments just contradict in-game information. Or ignores it.

Lore is not an unbiased source and can even be wrong.

If there is important information pertaining to a situation, then it should be presented directly to the player, not tucked away in some poorly-organized mess of other fictional documents.

You mean spoonfeeding?

[Meklis]

Plaintiff wrote...

Of course they apply. The game is intended for a modern audience and many aspects of the Dragon Age setting are more closely related to modern society than they are to the medieval period from which its aesthetic is derived.

Yeah, right. Typical presentism.

First things first, fyi most of problems of modern society exist since ancient or medieval times, the most notable exception being gender emancipation ones. Problem of slavery and freedom is an especially old one.

Simply put, there is no proof, that in Thedas exists any concept of "human rights." The closest thing to them is one of the Maker's commandments – "Those who bring harm without provocation to the least of His children are hated and accursed by the Maker." Even so, at the end of Landsmeet in Origins, Anora can send Alistair to death, as to prevent future rebellions (if Bhelen ascends to the Orzammar throne, he will do the same with Harrowmont). Does anyone stand for him, because he, as every human, has inborn and inalienable fundamental right to live? Or because of a right to a due process? No. Because there are no such rights in Thedas. Only you can save him – and your argument isn't some "human rights", but that Anora owes you a boon.

If you call mages slaves and want to abolish the Circles, I'd say you should first call for the abolition of feudalism and serfdom.

Modifié par Meklis, 22 novembre 2012 - 06:12 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...
I said "bigotry", not "racism". "Homosexual" isn't a race either, but discriminating against homosexuals is still bigotry. And I'm pretty sure the government allows its nuclear physicists to have their own homes and families.

There is no in-built temptation, that's nonsense. Mages are not programmed to be jerks any more than the rest of humanity.

All humans have built-in weakness to temptation. Mages are tempted more than other people.
The power they wield is more abusable.

Gaider himself said that magic - especially blood magic - is corrupting (in a natural sense).

So the bigotry is all yours. Enjoy it.

[Plaintiff]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
No, they don't.
The situation, the culture, the technology - nothing is like in our world.

Yeah, I'm sure a world with gender equality and relative acceptance of alternate sexualities has no concept of civil rights.

But I'm forgetting, according to you, morality and logic can't progress without arbitrary technological progress. God knows we'd never have ended segregation without the internet. Except, oh wait, we did!

So?

So the templars are not the cuddly-wuddly bears you keep trying to paint them as.

So? Serves him right.
He is lucky to be alive.

Oh, is this the game we're playing? Alright then.

I see your "lucky to be alive" and raise you an "anyone who would try to stop a mage from having complete freedom deserves to be anally violated with a red-hot poker while their children are burned alive before their eyes"

[Rawgrim]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
I said "bigotry", not "racism". "Homosexual" isn't a race either, but discriminating against homosexuals is still bigotry. And I'm pretty sure the government allows its nuclear physicists to have their own homes and families.

There is no in-built temptation, that's nonsense. Mages are not programmed to be jerks any more than the rest of humanity.

All humans have built-in weakness to temptation. Mages are tempted more than other people.
The power they wield is more abusable.

Gaider himself said that magic - especially blood magic - is corrupting (in a natural sense).

So the bigotry is all yours. Enjoy it.

You can lead a horse to water, and so on...

[Plaintiff]

Rawgrim wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

I think certain people haven`t paid too much attention to the codex, and lore details in the two games. Alot of the arguments just contradict in-game information. Or ignores it.

Lore is not an unbiased source and can even be wrong.

If there is important information pertaining to a situation, then it should be presented directly to the player, not tucked away in some poorly-organized mess of other fictional documents.

You mean spoonfeeding?

No, I mean semi-competent storytelling.

"Books should leave out critical plot points, so that the reader has to WORK to understand what's going on! Herpdederpderpderp."

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
Yeah, there's nothing wrong with imprisoning people for crimes they haven't committed,

Thus saving thousands upon thousands of other lives daily.

or feeding soldiers an addictive drug to force them to stay in your service,

You can't fight mages without lyrium.

denying endlessly renewable energy and inexpensive healing to the public,

Maybe you should consider the possibility that most mages are not at all interested in helping others.
Also, the streets of Orlais are iluminated by magic lamps so, they'd not being denied anything. In fact, I would be quite happy if Thedas stopped using those altogether.
So long as those lamps exists, no one is in a hurry to come up with uses for electricity.

keeping the practice of Templar training secret, so that everyone is forced to rely on you for protection,

Do you think people can buy lyrium or something?

using religious dogma to justify war.

Assumption. Elven racism and isolationism leading to that war is just as likely.
The elves should be grateful the Chantry was there or they would have been wiped out in rigtheous fury.

Modifié par MisterJB, 22 novembre 2012 - 06:09 .

[Rawgrim]

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

I think certain people haven`t paid too much attention to the codex, and lore details in the two games. Alot of the arguments just contradict in-game information. Or ignores it.

Lore is not an unbiased source and can even be wrong.

If there is important information pertaining to a situation, then it should be presented directly to the player, not tucked away in some poorly-organized mess of other fictional documents.

You mean spoonfeeding?

No, I mean semi-competent storytelling.

"Books should leave out critical plot points, so that the reader has to WORK to understand what's going on! Herpdederpderpderp."

Explaining how the world\\setting works isn`t a plot point. Its about the atmosphere, and letting the player\\reader know what the characters might run into and things like that.

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...
So long as those lamps exists, no one is in a hurry to come up with uses for electricity.

So? Lack of electricity is not evidence of stagnation. You don't know if conductive metals even exist in Thedas.

Magic is not antithetical to technology. They are one and the same.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 22 novembre 2012 - 06:12 .

[paul165]

Plaintiff wrote...

paul165 wrote...

You have another history to use? Besides Legacy strongly suggests at least some of it is factually accurate as does the ashes quest in DAO

No, and that's precisely the problem. History, typically being written by only one side, is inherently biased and so should be read with that in mind.

But you have no other history to use you can't just say "oh that's biased" and ignore it. It is the only set of historical sources we have so unless you have another historical source to offer you can make allowances for bias but there is evidence to support at least some of it again so it cannot be dismissed as casually as you appear to do.

Legacy is irrelevent, the Chantry is not aware of Corypheus's existence, so they still have no evidence whatsoever.

That Darwin wasn't aware of DNA doesn't invalidate his theory. For the same reason that the Chantry is unaware of a primary source supporting their claim does not mean that his presence is not support of their claims.

Then who gets it because healing is not infinite so odds are high that the people who get healed will be nobles, mages, priests and merchants ie those who can pay for it. Much like it is in the Circle system really except it might be harder to find a healer.

With enough healers to allow sufficient rest-time, healing capability could easily be infinite. THey simply need to set up a better infrastructure for distribution. Maybe set up permanent healing facilities near smaller settlements like Redcliffe. 

There is no I repeat no evidence to support that view. There are a limited number of mages and there are only a certain fraction of them that have the ability to heal and an only a certain fraction of them that have the inclination. You are also still suggesting the mages be scattered across Thedas ignoring the problems that causes.
 

Act Three of DA2 Kirkwall would disagree with the "significant damage" part as would the abomination that the head mage turned into. Anders took significant amounts of time working on his own, in the sewers, with limited resources. How long it would take with an organised, resourced group may be an entirely different animal.

It was still just one (admittedly large) building. Hardly the world-shattering apocalypse you're all leading me to expect.

Actually I was talking about the Docks district you have to fight through which is filled with animated corpses, dead civilians and burning buildings. Also when Anders commited his insanity it wasn't just the Chantry that was wrecked it was everything near it as a rain of burning rubble smashes down on the area.

Uldred and his cronies also had plenty of time to enact their plan, with the added benefit of surprise. Greagoir shut them in and left them to their own devices while awaiting the Right of Annullment. If he had acted immediatly instead, the situation might have been salvageable.

Tarohne and her pals schemed for who knows how long, and, as far as we can see, only acheived one successful templar possession.

As opposed to using people as a power source, desicrating the dead to use them against your enemies and mind raping people? I can play that game as well and it's just as silly if I do it. Also endlessly renewable energy - Mages have invented Fusion power now have they? Because if they haven't I have no idea what you are referring to there. Also the healing will be as expensive as the market will tolerate.

The difference is that all the things I listed are core practices of the Chantry system, and are basically required in order for it to run the way it does. The things you listed are the actions of individuals, and not indicative of the behaviour of mages as a whole.

Not all the Chantry does the things you listed. When does the Chantry use false imprisonment? Yes Templars are fed lyrium to enable their abilities but they are allowed to leave and indeed kicked if their addiction affects their judgement (see the ex-Templar in DA2). They keep the secrets of Templar training secret see well every military ever also revealing secrets of their training may make it harder for them to function so why should they tell people?

The healing thing doesn't work any better than the healing the Circles currently offer so I'm going to dismiss that without further comment.

Magic is the endlessly renewable energy to which I was referring. It has endless possible applications and mages need only rest in order to refuel.

And you base this on what precisely? What could greater access to magic do for the common people realistically bearing in mind the extremely small fraction of the population that are magically capable.

Anders provided his services for free. I'm sure there are plenty of other mages who are just as altruistic

Anders was in hiding and needed public support to continue operating in a Templar controlled city. He also murdered dozens of people and was a zealot that made even Meredith pale in comparison. I think we can do without further examples of his "altruism". Besides what stops people healing at the Circle why do you argue that somehow the healing services provided would be intrisically better without the Circles? If Anders is your example imagine how many more he could heal if he didn't have to worry about security and being his own secretary and buying food and, and, and ...In the Circles he could literally spend all day healing and yet he left - I'm sure it wasn't because he felt he could heal people better whilst hiding in a sewer.

classy. No really. Also the whole discrimination against mages is racism thing is completely stupid. "Mage" is not a race "mage" is a skill set like "demolitions expert" or "nuclear physicist" and yes governments tend to monitor those with that particular variety of skills very closely. Even more so if that skill set comes with a inbuilt temptation to turn against humanity.

I said "bigotry", not "racism". "Homosexual" isn't a race either, but discriminating against homosexuals is still bigotry. And I'm pretty sure the government allows its nuclear physicists to have their own homes and families.

Mage is still a skill set - a job more than a lifestyle choice so using "bigotry" as an argument is still trying to hijack valid arguments by hitting various conversational buttons to get people to back down.

Yes and they keep an eye on you and they ask a lot of questions if you want to move to a non friendly country. That less intrusive monitoring is only possible due to the higher tech level and faster communication in the real world and is not acheivable in Thedas. Additionally explosives experts are nowhere near the threat on a personal level that a mage is justifying the higher level of security and potentional explosive chemical purchases are monitored none of which you can do in a society where transport is horses and communication is carrier pigeons.

There is no in-built temptation, that's nonsense. Mages are not programmed to be jerks any more than the rest of humanity.

Ok naff metaphor the temptation is the higher risk of demonic possession which I thought was clear from context mea culpa. Naff metaphor aside the argument stands mages represent a double whammy of increased power and increased likelyhood to misuse it (through demonic influence)

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
So? Lack of electricity is not evidence of stagnation. You don't even know if conductive metals even exist in Thedas.

Magic is not antithetical to technology. They are one and the same.

Stagnation is evidence of stagnation. There is a reason qunari and dwarves already have gunpower. Because they don't rely on mages so much.

And magic is most certainly not the same as technology. Technology can be used by anyone with sufficient learning. Magic is available only to a few.

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...
Stagnation is evidence of stagnation. There is a reason qunari and dwarves already have gunpower. Because they don't rely on mages so much.

But there is no stagnation, exept that which the Chantry causes by restricting magical research.

Lack of gunpowder is also not evidence of stagnation.

And magic is most certainly not the same as technology. Technology can be used by anyone with sufficient learning. Magic is available only to a few.

Who technology can be used by has nothing to do with the definition of technology.

tech·nol·o·gy/tekˈnäləjē/
Noun:

- The application of scientific knowledge for practical purposes, esp. in industry: "computer technology"; "recycling technologies".
- Machinery and equipment developed from such scientific knowledge.

The study of magic is a science, therefore the practical application of magic is technology.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 22 novembre 2012 - 06:21 .

[paul165]

Plaintiff wrote...

paul165 wrote...
You realise that argument doesn't support your position right? It is an argument in favour of the Circles rather scattering mages to the four winds where it takes too much time to respond to any problems.

You don't actually understand my argument. At no point ever did I say that I supported anything like what you're suggesting. Glass houses.

Also I'm sure it was a great reassurance to all those innocents Conner murdered that it took him a few days to do it. It's also a great argument in favour of the Circles because had he been in a Circle where he should have been this would never have happened.

Because the Circles we've seen so far have been doing a bang-up job, am I right?

So what precisely were you trying to argue as other posters seemed to take your argument the same why I did.

As to your argument:

You are suggesting disbanding the Circles yes?

Therefore the mages will scatter as they get jobs, move to family etc.

Therefore it will take longer for any response to arrive.

Therefore more people will die.

Or

You could keep the mages in a Circle where problems are easily contained.


The Circles are the best compromise that anyone in universe has come up with between treating the mages as people and respecting the population. Other options include execution or the Rite of Tranquility and I'm guessing you wouldn't support them.

[Plaintiff]

Filament wrote...

It would be awfully silly if the iron and steel in Thedas (which have been weapon/armor material, so they do exist) were arbitrarily non-conductive compared to their real-world counterpart. Why not just call it something else if it's going to have different properties?

Why do they call their sky "sky" and grass "grass"? Because coming up with new words for everything would be a pointless waste of time.

But as it happens, the iron and steel they have do go by fantasy names, and thus are not representative of any metals in our own world.

[Rawgrim]

Filament wrote...

It would be awfully silly if the iron and steel in Thedas (which have been weapon/armor material, so they do exist) were arbitrarily non-conductive compared to their real-world counterpart. Why not just call it something else if it's going to have different properties?

Exactly. Thedas might not even have grass, as our world has. And the people in Thedas might not be breathing oxygen either.

[Plaintiff]

paul165 wrote...
You are suggesting disbanding the Circles yes?

No, not even close.

The Circles are the best compromise that anyone in universe has come up with between treating the mages as people and respecting the population.

 And it still fails completely at doing either of those things!

[paul165]

" And magic is most certainly not the same as technology. Technology can be used by anyone with sufficient learning. Magic is available only to a few.


Who technology can be used by has nothing to do with the definition of technology."

Yes it does technology always works regardless. If you put in the right fuel and press the right button the engine will start. If the engine was magical it would only work if you were born with the right bloodline and were sufficiently focused. Magic and tech are not equivalent and should not be treated as such.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
I said "bigotry", not "racism". "Homosexual" isn't a race either, but discriminating against homosexuals is still bigotry. And I'm pretty sure the government allows its nuclear physicists to have their own homes and families.

There is no in-built temptation, that's nonsense. Mages are not programmed to be jerks any more than the rest of humanity.

All humans have built-in weakness to temptation. Mages are tempted more than other people.
The power they wield is more abusable.

Gaider himself said that magic - especially blood magic - is corrupting (in a natural sense).

So the bigotry is all yours. Enjoy it.

I'm unsure of what you mean by corrupting in a natural sense. That said, iirc Gaider said that blood magic is corrupting only in that it's powerful, and that people with power tend to abuse it. So it's really no more corrupting than an army of templars. Probably less.

(On the other hand, Tevinter has both...)

Oh, as to Plaintiff's point, that mages are not programmed to be jerks any more than the rest of humanity? I think that's a moot point. Humanity really is programmed to be a bunch of jerks. Especially in Thedas.

[Rawgrim]

Plaintiff wrote...

paul165 wrote...
You are suggesting disbanding the Circles yes?

No, not even close.

The Circles are the best compromise that anyone in universe has come up with between treating the mages as people and respecting the population.

 And it still fails completely at doing either of those things!

And still its better than the alternative. Having thousands of Anders nutcases running around free.