373 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

Rawgrim wrote...

Filament wrote...

It would be awfully silly if the iron and steel in Thedas (which have been weapon/armor material, so they do exist) were arbitrarily non-conductive compared to their real-world counterpart. Why not just call it something else if it's going to have different properties?

Exactly. Thedas might not even have grass, as our world has. And the people in Thedas might not be breathing oxygen either.

You're being sarcastic, but that's the truth of it.

Thedas is a fantasy world, its laws of nature are fundamentally different from our own. Assuming that anything from our world applies there is assumption and nothing more, until demonstrated otherwise.

[Herr Uhl]

Filament wrote...

It would be awfully silly if the iron and steel in Thedas (which have been weapon/armor material, so they do exist) were arbitrarily non-conductive compared to their real-world counterpart. Why not just call it something else if it's going to have different properties?

They're not brilliant conductors, but there is copper, gold and silver who are.

Anyways, I find the argument that you should lock away mages in order to stave off stagnation to be weird, harness their power instead.

[Rawgrim]

Filament wrote...

Higher tier iron and steel has special names, yes (red steel, blue steel, white steel). But there is also just regular iron and steel.

This information wasn`t spoonfed to the player, so I guess its unvalid...

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Plaintiff wrote...

The Circles are the best compromise that anyone in universe has come up with between treating the mages as people and respecting the population.

 And it still fails completely at doing either of those things!

Not entirely. It minimizes lynchings, and if the people aren't exactly free, at least they aren't slaves to blood mages. It's not a perfect system any more than the rest of Thedas, but that's kind of the point of the game.

[Plaintiff]

paul165 wrote...

Yes it does technology always works regardless. If you put in the right fuel and press the right button the engine will start. If the engine was magical it would only work if you were born with the right bloodline and were sufficiently focused. Magic and tech are not equivalent and should not be treated as such.

No, that is also not the definition of technology.

[Rawgrim]

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Filament wrote...

It would be awfully silly if the iron and steel in Thedas (which have been weapon/armor material, so they do exist) were arbitrarily non-conductive compared to their real-world counterpart. Why not just call it something else if it's going to have different properties?

Exactly. Thedas might not even have grass, as our world has. And the people in Thedas might not be breathing oxygen either.

You're being sarcastic, but that's the truth of it.

Thedas is a fantasy world, its laws of nature are fundamentally different from our own. Assuming that anything from our world applies there is assumption and nothing more, until demonstrated otherwise.

Now you are just trolling. Nobody can be this dense.

[paul165]

Plaintiff wrote...

paul165 wrote...
You are suggesting disbanding the Circles yes?

No, not even close.

The Circles are the best compromise that anyone in universe has come up with between treating the mages as people and respecting the population.

 And it still fails completely at doing either of those things!

Then what precisely are you suggesting other than bashing the Chantry?

It fails in two Circles in a game where everywhere you visit has a ton of problems that only you can fix - you cannot use the game as evidence for the normal state of play in Thedas otherwise every second trip between villages involves a life and death struggle and ancient artifacts are found under every barrel.

[paul165]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

The Circles are the best compromise that anyone in universe has come up with between treating the mages as people and respecting the population.

 And it still fails completely at doing either of those things!

Not entirely. It minimizes lynchings, and if the people aren't exactly free, at least they aren't slaves to blood mages. It's not a perfect system any more than the rest of Thedas, but that's kind of the point of the game.

Exactly it isn't perfect but what is?

[Rawgrim]

The codex is included to explain to us how Thedas differs from our world. Anything not put into it, like how you bake bread and such, is the same as how it is in our world.

[Plaintiff]

Rawgrim wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

paul165 wrote...
You are suggesting disbanding the Circles yes?

No, not even close.

The Circles are the best compromise that anyone in universe has come up with between treating the mages as people and respecting the population.

 And it still fails completely at doing either of those things!

And still its better than the alternative. Having thousands of Anders nutcases running around free.

Can your mind seriously only conceive of one solution to any problem? There are dozens, if not hundreds of conceivable alternatives, of different levels of viability, and since the current system already failed, any one of them would be preferable by default

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
But there is no stagnation, exept that which the Chantry causes by restricting magical research.

Lack of gunpowder is also not evidence of stagnation.

Magical research should be more restricted. The reliance on it had lead to a major stagnation within human society. Gunpowder is an example of a technological advancment humanity has not achieved because they can just use a mage's fireball.
Unlike the dwarves who can be excused due to the constant war with the darkspawn, the human race had over a thousand years of relative peace after the fall of the Imperium but it has shown little to no advancement.
Compare it with the real world advancements of the XX century.

Who technology can be used by has nothing to do with the definition of technology.

The study of magic is a science, therefore the practical application of magic is technology.

Irrelevant semantics. The effects magic and technology have on society are very different and that is what is really important. Relying on magic for nearly everything would turn mundanes into second class citizens unable to ever compete because, unlike technology, they could never learn to use magic.
Imagine if magic was the oil of our world. Then the mages demand something the mundanes are not willing to concede. Suddenly, mage strike. The world's entire oil production ceases on the spot.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

paul165 wrote...
You are suggesting disbanding the Circles yes?

No, not even close.

The Circles are the best compromise that anyone in universe has come up with between treating the mages as people and respecting the population.

 And it still fails completely at doing either of those things!

And still its better than the alternative. Having thousands of Anders nutcases running around free.

Can your mind seriously only conceive of one solution to any problem? There are dozens, if not hundreds of conceivable alternatives, of different levels of viability, and since the current system already failed, any one of them would be preferable by default

I don't think that follows.

Edit: Besides, one of those concievable solutions involves the word "Saarebas."

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 22 novembre 2012 - 06:36 .

[Plaintiff]

paul165 wrote...
Then what precisely are you suggesting other than bashing the Chantry?

Remove Chantry oversight.

Install more Circle facilities in more places.

Institute secular Templar order with mages in ranks.

Increase personal freedoms for mages.

[paul165]

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Filament wrote...

It would be awfully silly if the iron and steel in Thedas (which have been weapon/armor material, so they do exist) were arbitrarily non-conductive compared to their real-world counterpart. Why not just call it something else if it's going to have different properties?

Exactly. Thedas might not even have grass, as our world has. And the people in Thedas might not be breathing oxygen either.

You're being sarcastic, but that's the truth of it.

Thedas is a fantasy world, its laws of nature are fundamentally different from our own. Assuming that anything from our world applies there is assumption and nothing more, until demonstrated otherwise.

Thedas like most fantasy settings works on Like Reality Unless Noted so people breathe oxygen, gravity works, grass is grass and the red stuff covering the screen is blood and is used ( with other things) to carry oxygen.

[Rawgrim]

paul165 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Filament wrote...

It would be awfully silly if the iron and steel in Thedas (which have been weapon/armor material, so they do exist) were arbitrarily non-conductive compared to their real-world counterpart. Why not just call it something else if it's going to have different properties?

Exactly. Thedas might not even have grass, as our world has. And the people in Thedas might not be breathing oxygen either.

You're being sarcastic, but that's the truth of it.

Thedas is a fantasy world, its laws of nature are fundamentally different from our own. Assuming that anything from our world applies there is assumption and nothing more, until demonstrated otherwise.

Thedas like most fantasy settings works on Like Reality Unless Noted so people breathe oxygen, gravity works, grass is grass and the red stuff covering the screen is blood and is used ( with other things) to carry oxygen.

Spot on.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Plaintiff wrote...

paul165 wrote...
Then what precisely are you suggesting other than bashing the Chantry?

Remove Chantry oversight.

Install more Circle facilities in more places.

Institute secular Templar order with mages in ranks.

Increase personal freedoms for mages.

Wow. I object to just about every argument you've made and yet this is still more or less what I'd have said.

[paul165]

Plaintiff wrote...

paul165 wrote...
Then what precisely are you suggesting other than bashing the Chantry?

Remove Chantry oversight.

And replace it with?

Install more Circle facilities in more places.

And man them how -especially as you no longer have Chantry resources to draw on.

Institute secular Templar order with mages in ranks.

Fine - if you can find a sufficient secular man power base in a medieval Europe setting

Increase personal freedoms for mages

That obviously doesn't include the freedom to settle outside the Circle so what "freedoms" would you grant they do not already enjoy in the better run Circles? Please note that you will not have the resources to keep increasing the size of the facilty for families so if you wish to allow your mages families then you end up with a rotation system or something similiar which few people would find satisfactory.

Modifié par paul165, 22 novembre 2012 - 06:42 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

paul165 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

paul165 wrote...
Then what precisely are you suggesting other than bashing the Chantry?

Remove Chantry oversight.

And replace it with?

Install more Circle facilities in more places.

And man them how -especially as you no longer have Chantry resources to draw on.

Institute secular Templar order with mages in ranks.

Fine - if you can find a sufficient secular man power base in a medieval Europe setting

Increase personal freedoms for mages

That obviously doesn't include the freedom to settle outside the Circle so what "freedoms" would you grant they do not already enjoy in the better run Circles? Please note that you will not have the resources to keep increasing the size of the facilty for families so if you wish to allow your mages families then you end up with a rotation system or something similiar which few people would find satisfactory.

Most of that can be answered by appropriating Chantry resources and recruiting such ex-templars as aren't complete fanatics. As to the increased freedoms, maybe just allowing them to visit their families?

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...
Magical research should be more restricted. The reliance on it had lead to a major stagnation within human society. Gunpowder is an example of a technological advancment humanity has not achieved because they can just use a mage's fireball.

The Qunari have had that gunpowder for three hundred years, and are no more advanced than they were hen they first arrived. And the existence of gunpowder is not evidence for the possibility further advancement. For all we know, the Qunari have followed that path as far as it can possibly go in Thedas.

If magic already provides a perfectly viable, possibly better alternative, then why the hell is gunpowder required?

Unlike the dwarves who can be excused due to the constant war with the darkspawn, the human race had over a thousand years of relative peace after the fall of the Imperium but it has shown little to no advancement.
Compare it with the real world advancements of the XX century.

So what? "Progress" is not automatically needed, nor is it automatically desirable. Ask any number of the ethnic minorities who had "progress" forced on them by invading Europeans.

Irrelevant semantics.

Is that what we're calling facts now?

The effects magic and technology have on society are very different and that is what is really important.

No they aren't, there is no reason to assume that magic could not fulfill all the same functions as "technology"

Relying on magic for nearly everything would turn mundanes into second class citizens unable to ever compete because, unlike technology, they could never learn to use magic.

Except it's perfectly possible to create magical devices that do not require a mage to operate, just like one does not need to know the intricacies of a lightbulb in order to turn one on.

Imagine if magic was the oil of our world. Then the mages demand something the mundanes are not willing to concede. Suddenly, mage strike. The world's entire oil production ceases on the spot.

Spells can have long-lasting, even permanent effects, there's no reason to suppose that mages would be constantly needed to supervise or "refuel" magical devices.

And since, again, there's no evidence that fuel exists on Thedas anyway, mundanes might potentially be forced to rely on magic forever as it is.

[paul165]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

paul165 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

paul165 wrote...
Then what precisely are you suggesting other than bashing the Chantry?

Remove Chantry oversight.

And replace it with?

Install more Circle facilities in more places.

And man them how -especially as you no longer have Chantry resources to draw on.

Institute secular Templar order with mages in ranks.

Fine - if you can find a sufficient secular man power base in a medieval Europe setting

Increase personal freedoms for mages

That obviously doesn't include the freedom to settle outside the Circle so what "freedoms" would you grant they do not already enjoy in the better run Circles? Please note that you will not have the resources to keep increasing the size of the facilty for families so if you wish to allow your mages families then you end up with a rotation system or something similiar which few people would find satisfactory.

Most of that can be answered by appropriating Chantry resources and recruiting such ex-templars as aren't complete fanatics. As to the increased freedoms, maybe just allowing them to visit their families?

Sure - sounds a plan apart from the bit where you expect the Chantry to fund it without having any influence on how their money is spent.  I don't have any problems with mages being allowed to visit their families providing they are escorted (pre Harrowing) or the Circle has a functional phylactery though - good point.

Do agree the Chantry shouldn't be in the direct chain of command though but I think some sort of oversight is inevitable if we are expecting the Chantry to fund it. Perhaps they act like Internal Affairs?

[Plaintiff]

paul165 wrote...
And replace it with?

Nothing? Individual contracts with local lords? Allow each monarch to govern the Circles of their own country as they see fit? Some sort of secular international commitee?

And man them how -especially as you no longer have Chantry resources to draw on.

By hiring people? More infrastructure = more jobs, generally. The Circles are more than capable of earning their own money when the Chantry allows them, by selling enchanted goods and magical services.

Fine - if you can find a sufficient secular man power base in a medieval Europe setting

I can think of a certain religious order that won't be needing its army anymore after its headquarters has been reduced to rubble.

That obviously doesn't include the freedom to settle outside the Circle

That's not obvious at all.

so what "freedoms" would you grant they do not already enjoy in the better run Circles?

That depends, exactly what freedoms do these "better run" Circles allow?

Please note that you will not have the resources to keep increasing the size of the facilty for families so if you wish to allow your mages families then you end up with a rotation system or something similiar which few people would find satisfactory.

Who says I won't have the resources? Magical goods are highly desirable.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

paul165 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

paul165 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

paul165 wrote...
Then what precisely are you suggesting other than bashing the Chantry?

Remove Chantry oversight.

And replace it with?

Install more Circle facilities in more places.

And man them how -especially as you no longer have Chantry resources to draw on.

Institute secular Templar order with mages in ranks.

Fine - if you can find a sufficient secular man power base in a medieval Europe setting

Increase personal freedoms for mages

That obviously doesn't include the freedom to settle outside the Circle so what "freedoms" would you grant they do not already enjoy in the better run Circles? Please note that you will not have the resources to keep increasing the size of the facilty for families so if you wish to allow your mages families then you end up with a rotation system or something similiar which few people would find satisfactory.

Most of that can be answered by appropriating Chantry resources and recruiting such ex-templars as aren't complete fanatics. As to the increased freedoms, maybe just allowing them to visit their families?

Sure - sounds a plan apart from the bit where you expect the Chantry to fund it without having any influence on how their money is spent.  I don't have any problems with mages being allowed to visit their families providing they are escorted (pre Harrowing) or the Circle has a functional phylactery though - good point.

Do agree the Chantry shouldn't be in the direct chain of command though but I think some sort of oversight is inevitable if we are expecting the Chantry to fund it. Perhaps they act like Internal Affairs?

Huh? No, I mean we steal the start-up funds from them and then let the Lucrosian fraternity figure out where to go from there. I mean, there's got to be ways to make money off of magic without having to enslave people and sacrifice them to summon demons.

[paul165]

Plaintiff wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
Magical research should be more restricted. The reliance on it had lead to a major stagnation within human society. Gunpowder is an example of a technological advancment humanity has not achieved because they can just use a mage's fireball.

The Qunari have had that gunpowder for three hundred years, and are no more advanced than they were hen they first arrived. And the existence of gunpowder is not evidence for the possibility further advancement. For all we know, the Qunari have followed that path as far as it can possibly go in Thedas.

If magic already provides a perfectly viable, possibly better alternative, then why the hell is gunpowder required?

Unlike the dwarves who can be excused due to the constant war with the darkspawn, the human race had over a thousand years of relative peace after the fall of the Imperium but it has shown little to no advancement.
Compare it with the real world advancements of the XX century.

So what? "Progress" is not automatically needed, nor is it automatically desirable. Ask any number of the ethnic minorities who had "progress" forced on them by invading Europeans.

Irrelevant semantics.

Is that what we're calling facts now?

The effects magic and technology have on society are very different and that is what is really important.

No they aren't, there is no reason to assume that magic could not fulfill all the same functions as "technology"

Relying on magic for nearly everything would turn mundanes into second class citizens unable to ever compete because, unlike technology, they could never learn to use magic.

Except it's perfectly possible to create magical devices that do not require a mage to operate, just like one does not need to know the intricacies of a lightbulb in order to turn one on.

Imagine if magic was the oil of our world. Then the mages demand something the mundanes are not willing to concede. Suddenly, mage strike. The world's entire oil production ceases on the spot.

Spells can have long-lasting, even permanent effects, there's no reason to suppose that mages would be constantly needed to supervise or "refuel" magical devices.

And since, again, there's no evidence that fuel exists on Thedas anyway, mundanes might potentially be forced to rely on magic forever as it is.

Progress is always desirable. Those "ethnic minorities" you mean ie the colonies really rather liked the progress they just didn't, for very good reasons, like the conquest that came as part of the package deal. If you asked the former colonies now whether they would wish to go back to pre colonisation tech levels I would suggest you would get very few takers

[Plaintiff]

paul165 wrote...
Sure - sounds a plan apart from the bit where you expect the Chantry to fund it without having any influence on how their money is spent.

The Chantry's resources will be taken by force, if necessary. They're not going to agree to mind their own business re: the Circle in the first place, so the destruction or significant weakening of its power is implicit in removing them from the governing position.

[Rawgrim]

Plaintiff wrote...

paul165 wrote...
Sure - sounds a plan apart from the bit where you expect the Chantry to fund it without having any influence on how their money is spent.

The Chantry's resources will be taken by force, if necessary. They're not going to agree to mind their own business re: the Circle in the first place, so the destruction or significant weakening of its power is implicit in removing them from the governing position.

You mean money that the general population have donated to the chantry etc? Just take it by force? Yeah...that would be popular.