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Bioware, please give Pro-Templars more arguments to choose from.


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#201
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Rawgrim wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

paul165 wrote...
Sure - sounds a plan apart from the bit where you expect the Chantry to fund it without having any influence on how their money is spent.

The Chantry's resources will be taken by force, if necessary. They're not going to agree to mind their own business re: the Circle in the first place, so the destruction or significant weakening of its power is implicit in removing them from the governing position.


You mean money that the general population have donated to the chantry etc? Just take it by force? Yeah...that would be popular.


Just the portion dedicated to the Circles and the Templar order. They don't need that anyway.

#202
MisterJB

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Plaintiff wrote...
The Qunari have had that gunpowder for three hundred years, and are no more advanced than they were hen they first arrived. And the existence of gunpowder is not evidence for the possibility further advancement. For all we know, the Qunari have followed that path as far as it can possibly go in Thedas.

Seriously, that is nonsense. Unless we are specifically told a natural law of the real world doesn't work in a fictional one, then it does.

If magic already provides a perfectly viable, possibly better alternative, then why the hell is gunpowder required?

Because gunpowder can be used by anyone and magic only by a class of people who will take advantage of this fact.

So what? "Progress" is not automatically needed, nor is it automatically desirable. Ask any number of the ethnic minorities who had "progress" forced on them by invading Europeans.

Progress is always needed and always desirable. What is undesirable is the conflict between two different factions of people not the progress itself.
Such as in this case where magic is not undesirable, the conflict between mundanes and mages is.

Is that what we're calling facts now?

Please, you wouldn't know a fact if it hit you in the face.

No they aren't, there is no reason to assume that magic could not fulfill all the same functions as "technology"

Even if the fuctions fufilled are the same, since the innerworking of magic are quite different from technology; for instance, the fact that it's only available to a few or the fact it attracts demons; the effects on society will be different.

Except it's perfectly possible to create magical devices that do not require a mage to operate, just like one does not need to know the intricacies of a lightbulb in order to turn one on.

Spells can have long-lasting, even permanent effects, there's no reason to suppose that mages would be constantly needed to supervise or "refuel" magical devices.

Not only it is an huge assumption that any spell can last indefinitely; we have seen several weaken overtime and those where highly complex and powerfull spells meant to last, not day to day needs; any mage with half the intelligence the Maker granted to a sheep would realize that forcing the mundanes to rely on them for something as banal as illuminating a street works in their favor.

Mage supremacists might not care but we do.

And since, again, there's no evidence that fuel exists on Thedas anyway, mundanes might potentially be forced to rely on magic forever as it is.

As others have said, unless explicitally told otherwise, the rules of a fictional world work just like ours.

#203
MisterJB

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Plaintiff wrote...
Nothing? Individual contracts with local lords? Allow each monarch to govern the Circles of their own country as they see fit?

Are!? You!? Insane!?

Do you want to see orlesian mages fighting ferelden mages in wars of conquests? Peasants used as fuel for blood spells?

#204
paul165

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Plaintiff wrote...

paul165 wrote...
And replace it with?

Nothing? Individual contracts with local lords? Allow each monarch to govern the Circles of their own country as they see fit? Some sort of secular international commitee?

And man them how -especially as you no longer have Chantry resources to draw on.

By hiring people? More infrastructure = more jobs, generally. The Circles are more than capable of earning their own money when the Chantry allows them, by selling enchanted goods and magical services.

Fine - if you can find a sufficient secular man power base in a medieval Europe setting

I can think of a certain religious order that won't be needing its army anymore after its headquarters has been reduced to rubble.

That obviously doesn't include the freedom to settle outside the Circle

That's not obvious at all.

so what "freedoms" would you grant they do not already enjoy in the better run Circles?

That depends, exactly what freedoms do these "better run" Circles allow?

Please note that you will not have the resources to keep increasing the size of the facilty for families so if you wish to allow your mages families then you end up with a rotation system or something similiar which few people would find satisfactory.

Who says I won't have the resources? Magical goods are highly desirable.


Ok in order:
a) You need the resources to build the Circles in order to build the goods to be able to afford the resources to build the Circles. The initial money has to come from somewhere and stealing it from the Chantry is not an option.

B) Ah "blow up the Chantry" aka the Anders Solution. It elimates the need for an army alright because if the mages did that the survival time for mages would be measured in days as every single religious person - ie all of them in Thedas would go hostile. Also you can take the Templars out of the Chantry you can't take the Chantry out of the Templars they are still a primarily religious order.

c)If you allow mages to settle outside the Circle you get the response time problem that started this whole conversation - and you just said you wouldn't.

d) Tell me what you want to allow them to do and I'll try and see if I can reference whether it is allowed or not. Listing activities serves neither of us.

e) Great can your magical goods make land? Because if not you run out of space in cities at some point regardless of how rich you are.

#205
Rawgrim

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MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Nothing? Individual contracts with local lords? Allow each monarch to govern the Circles of their own country as they see fit?

Are!? You!? Insane!?

Do you want to see orlesian mages fighting ferelden mages in wars of conquests? Peasants used as fuel for blood spells?



LOL i was thinking the same thing. Would be like A Song of Ice and Fire, with nuclear bombs fuled by the peasants.

#206
paul165

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Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

paul165 wrote...
Sure - sounds a plan apart from the bit where you expect the Chantry to fund it without having any influence on how their money is spent.

The Chantry's resources will be taken by force, if necessary. They're not going to agree to mind their own business re: the Circle in the first place, so the destruction or significant weakening of its power is implicit in removing them from the governing position.


You mean money that the general population have donated to the chantry etc? Just take it by force? Yeah...that would be popular.


Just the portion dedicated to the Circles and the Templar order. They don't need that anyway.


And......wait for it.........



Instant Holy War (just add water!)

The point is to find a peaceful solution not to replace a minor war with a bigger war.:pinched:

#207
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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paul165 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

paul165 wrote...
Sure - sounds a plan apart from the bit where you expect the Chantry to fund it without having any influence on how their money is spent.

The Chantry's resources will be taken by force, if necessary. They're not going to agree to mind their own business re: the Circle in the first place, so the destruction or significant weakening of its power is implicit in removing them from the governing position.


You mean money that the general population have donated to the chantry etc? Just take it by force? Yeah...that would be popular.


Just the portion dedicated to the Circles and the Templar order. They don't need that anyway.


And......wait for it.........

Instant Holy War (just add water!)
The point is to find a peaceful solution not to replace a minor war with a bigger war.:pinched:


Aren't the templars already not working for the Chantry?

Besides, there is no minor war. This is already basically World War Seven. And Plaintiff has a point about how the Chantry's going to do their best to torpedo this anyway.

#208
Harle Cerulean

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Rawgrim wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Nothing? Individual contracts with local lords? Allow each monarch to govern the Circles of their own country as they see fit?

Are!? You!? Insane!?

Do you want to see orlesian mages fighting ferelden mages in wars of conquests? Peasants used as fuel for blood spells?



LOL i was thinking the same thing. Would be like A Song of Ice and Fire, with nuclear bombs fuled by the peasants.


Just imagine, if Loghain had that system, instead of selling Denerim's elves into slavery for funds to fight his civil war, he could have had Uldred sacrifice them to control the minds of the nobles to prevent civil war!  Sounds like a good idea to me!

(This is sarcasm.  Both are horrible ideas.)

#209
Lotion Soronarr

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Plaintiff wrote...
Thedas is a fantasy world, its laws of nature are fundamentally different from our own. Assuming that anything from our world applies there is assumption and nothing more, until demonstrated otherwise.


And yet you assume our morals apply....and haven't proven that to be the case.

Defeated by your own words....B)

#210
paul165

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Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

paul165 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

paul165 wrote...
Sure - sounds a plan apart from the bit where you expect the Chantry to fund it without having any influence on how their money is spent.

The Chantry's resources will be taken by force, if necessary. They're not going to agree to mind their own business re: the Circle in the first place, so the destruction or significant weakening of its power is implicit in removing them from the governing position.


You mean money that the general population have donated to the chantry etc? Just take it by force? Yeah...that would be popular.


Just the portion dedicated to the Circles and the Templar order. They don't need that anyway.


And......wait for it.........

Instant Holy War (just add water!)
The point is to find a peaceful solution not to replace a minor war with a bigger war.:pinched:


Aren't the templars already not working for the Chantry?

Besides, there is no minor war. This is already basically World War Seven. And Plaintiff has a point about how the Chantry's going to do their best to torpedo this anyway.


At the moment it's a gang war from hell as both the Templars and Mages have split into factions and are fighting each other whilst everyone else tries to stay out of the way (from what I remember of the end of DA2).  If the mages attack the Chantry then everyone unites against the mages and that is not survivable.

The Chantry can be managed give them a nice important sounding "oversight" role with very little political power and a cut of the profits (call it "rent" of the buildings) and you can keep them negotiating. Blow up priests and steal money from them they can portray themselves as the victims and call holy war to "prevent the demon worshippers threatening humanities one hope of redemption" at which point all the mages die horribly as everyone unites against them.

#211
Lotion Soronarr

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Plaintiff wrote...
Can your mind seriously only conceive of one solution to any problem? There are dozens, if not hundreds of conceivable alternatives, of different levels of viability, and since the current system already failed, any one of them would be preferable by default


1) the current system didn't fail
2) What other alternative? Nohing you suggested has ever been viable.
3) No. Not a single one would be preferable. None.

#212
Herr Uhl

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

1) the current system didn't fail


It kind of did when the Templars split from the chantry.

#213
Rawgrim

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Can your mind seriously only conceive of one solution to any problem? There are dozens, if not hundreds of conceivable alternatives, of different levels of viability, and since the current system already failed, any one of them would be preferable by default


1) the current system didn't fail
2) What other alternative? Nohing you suggested has ever been viable.
3) No. Not a single one would be preferable. None.


True. The current system got sabotaged by that nut Anders, with Orsino working in the background as well.

#214
Lotion Soronarr

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Plaintiff wrote...
Remove Chantry oversight.

Install more Circle facilities in more places.

Institute secular Templar order with mages in ranks.

Increase personal freedoms for mages.


So no oversight?

So more costs and more templars necessary?

So mages can go berserk and corrupt the order from within?

So more death and destruction can follow?

#215
Rawgrim

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Herr Uhl wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

1) the current system didn't fail


It kind of did when the Templars split from the chantry.


Some did. Not all of them. And it happened because of what anders did in Kirkwall.

#216
Plaintiff

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MisterJB wrote...
Are!? You!? Insane!?

Why!? Are!? You!? Shouting!?

Do you want to see orlesian mages fighting ferelden mages in wars of conquests? Peasants used as fuel for blood spells?

Yeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaah... that already happens, regardless. Chantry oversight didn't stop either side from employing magic in the Orlesian occupation of Ferelden.

There've been massive magical wars prior to the Dragon Age. Arlathan vs Tevinter, Andraste vs Tevinter, that Calenhad guy had a mage on hand, Tevinter vs the Qunari is still on hand... there's probably more I'm forgetting.

And you know what? The world is still not an abomination-ridden cinder.

#217
Herr Uhl

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Rawgrim wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

1) the current system didn't fail


It kind of did when the Templars split from the chantry.


Some did. Not all of them. And it happened because of what anders did in Kirkwall.


What does it matter if Anders is the cause? It still failed from an objective point of view.

#218
Rawgrim

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Plaintiff wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
Are!? You!? Insane!?

Why!? Are!? You!? Shouting!?

Do you want to see orlesian mages fighting ferelden mages in wars of conquests? Peasants used as fuel for blood spells?

Yeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaah... that already happens, regardless. Chantry oversight didn't stop either side from employing magic in the Orlesian occupation of Ferelden.

There've been massive magical wars prior to the Dragon Age. Arlathan vs Tevinter, Andraste vs Tevinter, that Calenhad guy had a mage on hand, Tevinter vs the Qunari is still on hand... there's probably more I'm forgetting.

And you know what? The world is still not an abomination-ridden cinder.


Maybe the circle has something to do with that?

#219
Plaintiff

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Rawgrim wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

1) the current system didn't fail


It kind of did when the Templars split from the chantry.


Some did. Not all of them. And it happened because of what anders did in Kirkwall.

Yeah, the Circle system was rock-solid until a single sewer-dwelling hobo rocked up and toppled it single-handedly.

War doesn't jsut erupt in a vaccuum, this conflict is the result of a millenium of increasing tensions on both sides. It could be argued that it was always going on.

#220
Rawgrim

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Herr Uhl wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

1) the current system didn't fail


It kind of did when the Templars split from the chantry.


Some did. Not all of them. And it happened because of what anders did in Kirkwall.


What does it matter if Anders is the cause? It still failed from an objective point of view.


I meant the "failing" of the system. Not why the templars left.

#221
Lotion Soronarr

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This whole debate in a nutshell:

"I have this perfect happy solution. I mean, perfect and happy for mages - F*** everyone else."

ooook...so how you plan to finance it?

"We'll steal money from the Chantry."

Wont' be enough. The current circle and templar numbers are barely sufficient. You'd need at least 10 times more for that "all mags walk free" plan. How do you solve the logistic issue? The populace approval issue? The reposnse time issue? The power abuse issue?

...."MAGIC!!!!"

#222
Plaintiff

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Thedas is a fantasy world, its laws of nature are fundamentally different from our own. Assuming that anything from our world applies there is assumption and nothing more, until demonstrated otherwise.


And yet you assume our morals apply....and haven't proven that to be the case.

Defeated by your own words....B)


Morals are conceptual, and not relevant to the physical composition of Thedas.

Who's "our"? You got a mouse in your pocket?

#223
Rawgrim

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Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

1) the current system didn't fail


It kind of did when the Templars split from the chantry.


Some did. Not all of them. And it happened because of what anders did in Kirkwall.

Yeah, the Circle system was rock-solid until a single sewer-dwelling hobo rocked up and toppled it single-handedly.

War doesn't jsut erupt in a vaccuum, this conflict is the result of a millenium of increasing tensions on both sides. It could be argued that it was always going on.


Tension caused by Meredith, under the influence of magic, and Orsino - a psychotic mage. Add that terrorist Anders into the mix, and the situation had no chance at ever being resolved peacefully.

#224
paul165

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

This whole debate in a nutshell:

"I have this perfect happy solution. I mean, perfect and happy for mages - F*** everyone else."

ooook...so how you plan to finance it?

"We'll steal money from the Chantry."

Wont' be enough. The current circle and templar numbers are barely sufficient. You'd need at least 10 times more for that "all mags walk free" plan. How do you solve the logistic issue? The populace approval issue? The reposnse time issue? The power abuse issue?

...."MAGIC!!!!"


Sadly accurate I agree.

#225
Plaintiff

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MisterJB wrote...
As others have said, unless explicitally told otherwise, the rules of a fictional world work just like ours.

We've been underground. Where's the fuel? On some unexplored desert continent that the writers haven't invented yet?

Modifié par Plaintiff, 22 novembre 2012 - 07:38 .