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A great article on DLC.


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#226
Emzamination

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The Sarendoctrinator wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

@ Dlc - Why are you guys stressing so much? There are many legitimate alternatives to purchasing dlc if you can't afford it such as survey and reward sites. No need to expend energy putting up a shielded argument around the real issue.


I can't speak for anyone else's reasons, but mine isn't motivated by the price of DLC. I'm just against using an internet connection with my gaming consoles and missing out on so much content because of that.

I've been suggesting for quite some time that BioWare release a DAO-style ultimate edition for the Mass Effect games with all of the DLC on the disc (including them as free downloads is useless to me, just a piece of paper with some numbers/letters printed on it), which would mean buying a second copy of their games at full price. I spend enough time on BioWare's games in multiple playthroughs that a second buy is well worth it to me if I can finally get what I've been missing out on, but for that the content needs to be offered in a way that's available to me.


I'm sorry saren but your missing out is well deserved if that be the case. There is absolutely zero reason you should be avoiding hooking your console up to the net to make purchases off the marketplace. A online connection doesn't affect your hardware and the current generation of consoles can't get viruses or be hacked.

#227
Gatt9

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Allan Schumacher wrote...


Publishers are shooting themselves in the foot now with the whole DLC thing. It's increasing the cost of a game from $60 to $70 or $80, for a product the consumer has no option to try beforehand.


No. At best you could argue that it's episodic. You're making the assumption that there aren't people that don't buy DLC that aren't happy with their purchases, and don't feel as though they are missing out because they don't have the DLC. This isn't true. (I'm an example of it. Very rarely do I buy DLC, though I am typically very happy with my gaming purchases).


You're looking at it from an Industry insider's perspective Alan.

The Consumer doesn't see it as episodic when they hit the register.  When they hit the register with their copy of ME3,  and they're told "Do you want to buy the DLC with that?",  they're not seeing it as episodic.  They're seeing it as an additional $10 cost to get the full game.

The Walking Dead is perceived as episodic,  it's a series of self-contained titles that progressively build upon one another.  DLC is different,  at it's best,  it's an expansion pack.  Often it's a money grab by trying to sell the "Horse Armor" with pallette swaps or some random clothing that took an artist half a day to generate.  At it's worst,  it's EA,  it's hostage content and content cut from the main game in order to jack the price up $10.

We can already tell there's alot of anger and frustration about the Day 1 DLC issue,  look at the massive thread on the ME3 board about From Ashes.  Look at Capcom's performance in 2012 for clues to consumer interpretations of disc-locked content (Hostage content).

Further,  you're dodging the issue of "Pay us more money for "Extra content" for this game you haven't tried and don't know if you like it".

Furthermore, customers are more than within their right to wait to purchase games until they are a lower price if they aren't convinced the game will be worth the money. I encourage gamers to do this too. I personally look at a new release and gauge my interest level for it, and then determine the price point at which I will buy it. This is often not top price at retail. I suppose if one is starved for gaming (my gaming interests are exceptionally diverse) this may not be the case, but it still comes back to "the alternative to playing one video game need not be play a different video game."


I'll agree with that.  The unfortunate reality is though,  it'd crush the industry inside of 12 months were that to happen.  Few Publishers/Studios are able to wait 12 months for the release of the DLC-packed-in version to see the return from their work,  especially since in most cases that would mean significantly lower sales.

If a large number of people had taken that route with DA2 or ME3,  it's very likely neither one would've made back their budget.  EA for example,  cannot wait for people to actually learn about their games,  since their business strategy appears to be to put little effort into the games and alot of effort into monetizing the games.  A market that waits is a market that is much less likely to buy EA products considering their recent track record.

They do what we've seen people increasingly stating they'll do. "I'll wait for the release with all of the DLC packed in". In order to meet their expectations of value, and to determine if the product is worth the expense by waiting for word of mouth, the consumers are deciding in increasing numbers to wait for titles that they didn't feel were "Must have".


Does it? Or is that just what you think it does? Do you have anything to substantiate your perspective? Preferably numbers if possible.


Capcom provides a ready example.  Street Fighter 2 was well under expectations,  Dragon's Dogma was well under expectations.  Neither game was bad,  and neither game had any reason not to meet the projections.  Given the internet backlash about the disc-locked content,  it's reasonably safe to assume that the cause of the missed projections was the DLC policy.

From there,  I'll have to ask you to consult the NPD reports EA receives.  Since the Publishers campaigned to have the numbers hidden from Gamers a couple of years ago in an effort to hide their increasing slide and fuel their campaigns of disinformation ("Game X has shipped 2 million units!"),  you know I cannot give you the hard numbers.

But I can draw inferences from news bites,  quarterlies,  NPD's monthly +/- percentages in sales,  and the various threads on boards showing what concerns gamers. 

@ Dlc - Why are you guys stressing so much? There are many legitimate alternatives to purchasing dlc if you can't afford it such as survey and reward sites. No need to expend energy putting up a shielded argument around the real issue.


Because the gaming industry doesn't operate under anything remotely resembling good sense.  One only has to look at the block-buster mentality of the Industry compared to Kickstarter's success to see that the Industry is leaving piles of money on the table while chasing after Call of Duty and World of Warcraft.

The equivalent being if the movie Industry suddenly stopped making anything but pirate movies after Pirates of the Carribbean made a billion dollars.  Hollywood doesn't do that,  because they know there's mountains of money to be made in diversity.

If DLC is permitted to become the norm,  then EA can,  and will,  drive hard to charging you $1 to reload your clip.  EA has no concept of long term health or sustainability,  they're only interested in trying to seperate you from as much money as they can.

Ultimately,  if left unchecked,  the emerging DLC models will cause a full industry crash as Publisher greed exceeds consumer tolerance.  At some finite point,  between poor quality and upward spiraling costs,  the market is going to shrink.

Since the market has a huge lag time in order to make changes,  and such an event can occur at an incredible speed,  it would literally be catastrophic.  Once Publisher greed exceeds consumer tolerance,  it'd be completely impossible to avoid the crash.

#228
In Exile

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Gatt9 wrote...
Because the gaming industry doesn't operate under anything remotely resembling good sense.  One only has to look at the block-buster mentality of the Industry compared to Kickstarter's success to see that the Industry is leaving piles of money on the table while chasing after Call of Duty and World of Warcraft.


I have to comment on this point: we have not yet seen whether or not crowdfunding of software is succesful (and, indeed, whether or not it will be regulated into oblivion by, for example, the SEC). Right now, it's raised quite reasonable amounts of capital for a project, operating as (in most cases) a very early form of pre-order for a series of private companies largely on the reputation of the people who were promoting the projects.

#229
Sylvius the Mad

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Maria Caliban wrote...

A month after the game comes out, I've already uninstalled it and moved on to something else.

If it's a great game, I'll never uninstall it.  I'll reinstall it on every new computer I buy as part of my initial set-up.

No new computer is ready for me to use until it has Baldur's Gate and Alpha Centauri installed.

#230
Sylvius the Mad

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I interpreted something backward.  Oops.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 24 novembre 2012 - 08:52 .


#231
The Sarendoctrinator

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

Side quests do get cut from the game. If we include early developments, tons and tons and tons of things get early prototypes but ultimately are axed for a variety of reasons. Some stuff gets farther along in development to varying degrees, and still doesn't make it in game despite investment of time. Could be scope reasons, a realization that the system wasn't enjoyable, redundancy, and so forth. So yeah, side quest ideas do get cut. Lots of things do. Everything always has an opportunity cost associated with it, in that spending time working on one thing means you're not spending time working on some other thing.

I just used Redcliffe as an example because it illustrates that not all cut content is cut the same way. Even just using characters, imagine cutting Alistair or Morrigan instead of Shale.

That's about what I thought for the side quests. I'm just trying to get a better idea of why it's been so common in recent BioWare games to have companions as DLC (assuming that at least some of these are caused by a lack of time/resources to finish, rather than being created for the purpose of being sold as DLC) compared to games pre-DAO when this didn't happen. Are some character concepts just created later in the development process than others, originally planned to be in the base game until deadlines got too close, and that's why only a portion of their content made it onto the disc?

You're right, it would be hard to imagine DAO without Alistair or Morrigan. I might have said the same thing about Shale too, if I hadn't already played the game without her before getting the ultimate edition. The deep roads mission was still powerful when Shale wasn't around, but after I played again with her there, her presence added so much to the scene with Caridin. It's a shame that any of them would have to be cut.

Emzamination wrote...

I'm sorry saren but your missing out is well deserved if that be the case. There is absolutely zero reason you should be avoiding hooking your console up to the net to make purchases off the marketplace. A online connection doesn't affect your hardware and the current generation of consoles can't get viruses or be hacked.

PSN was hacked, and it took a few months to fix that mess for the people whose accounts were compromised. I'm sure I've read about other individual cases that weren't so widespead as well.

I believe all players deserve to have this content available to them, whether their reasons for not using an internet connection are by choice or out of necessity. No one should have to miss out.

#232
Allan Schumacher

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You're looking at it from an Industry insider's perspective Alan.


I'm also a consumer, and have seen many people that aren't industry insiders pick up Mass Effect 3 and be happy with the game without picking up any of the DLC.


The Consumer doesn't see it as episodic when they hit the register. When they hit the register with their copy of ME3, and they're told "Do you want to buy the DLC with that?", they're not seeing it as episodic. They're seeing it as an additional $10 cost to get the full game.


I think it'd be clearer if you swapped "The Consumer" with "I." You're speaking on behalf of people as though there's a consensus, when there isn't. This is like saying that you're only getting a full meal if you get the gravy with your french fries.

Further, you're dodging the issue of "Pay us more money for "Extra content" for this game you haven't tried and don't know if you like it".


That's because it's a red herring straw man argument. Your argument applies to gaming in general and has no bearing on DLC.


Given the internet backlash about the disc-locked content, it's reasonably safe to assume that the cause of the missed projections was the DLC policy.


This is called seeing what you want to see. In this thread, you have told me that basically you're interpretations of everything is spot on precise. The vast majority of people that like DLC are kids (and therefore we should ignore them), and a host of other obvious conclusions. This is like people that go "Skyrim has a toolset, and it sold really well. Therefore we can conclude that Skyrim's success is related to the presence of the toolset."

For you, it's like the people that enjoy "From Ashes" and have no issues with it being Day One DLC simply do not exist.


Because the gaming industry doesn't operate under anything remotely resembling good sense. One only has to look at the block-buster mentality of the Industry compared to Kickstarter's success to see that the Industry is leaving piles of money on the table while chasing after Call of Duty and World of Warcraft.


I've seen comments like this before, as though the money spent on supporting the kickstarter for a different game is money that BioWare won't see as a result. This is a false dichotomy and not true. That I decided to support Project Eternity has very limited basis on whether or not I'll buy another game that I really want. The only ones that may suffer are the fringe games, but it's just as likely that I don't go to a movie, or skip out on some other luxury, if the issue of lack of funds comes up.

#233
Allan Schumacher

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That's about what I thought for the side quests. I'm just trying to get a better idea of why it's been so common in recent BioWare games to have companions as DLC (assuming that at least some of these are caused by a lack of time/resources to finish, rather than being created for the purpose of being sold as DLC) compared to games pre-DAO when this didn't happen. Are some character concepts just created later in the development process than others, originally planned to be in the base game until deadlines got too close, and that's why only a portion of their content made it onto the disc?


It's also important to note that information in general is a lot more prevalent. In the past we simply did not hear much about content that was cut. People evidently don't realize that much of Tales of the Sword Coast was content originally considered for the original release of Baldur's Gate.


I believe all players deserve to have this content available to them,
whether their reasons for not using an internet connection are by choice
or out of necessity. No one should have to miss out.


Just curious, but where should the line be?  I don't think anyone is saying "You should have released a PS2 version."  But why not?

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 26 novembre 2012 - 05:28 .


#234
naughty99

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

You're looking at it from an Industry insider's perspective Alan.


I'm also a consumer, and have seen many people that aren't industry insiders pick up Mass Effect 3 and be happy with the game without picking up any of the DLC.


I'm one of these consumers. Looking forward to perhaps some sort of GOTY edition in the future or picking up some of the ME3 DLC if there is ever a sale on Origin, but in the meantime I enjoyed ME3 quite a bit without From Ashes, Omega or Leviathan and never felt like I was missing out on anything important by not having a Prothean companion, etc.

I tend to be more interested in DLC that enhances replay value by expanding on the gameplay features available in the base game.

#235
The Sarendoctrinator

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

It's also important to note that information in general is a lot more prevalent. In the past we simply did not hear much about content that was cut. People evidently don't realize that much of Tales of the Sword Coast was content originally considered for the original release of Baldur's Gate.

That's true, but when they released Tales of the Sword Coast wasn't it on a disc? Unless I've mixed up the names and that's not the expansion. I haven't played Baldur's Gate yet, so I'm not too familiar with that one.

Just curious, but where should the line be?  I don't think anyone is saying "You should have released a PS2 version."  But why not?

Again, my tech knowledge is very limited, but wouldn't the system requirements make it impossible to run games like Mass Effect on PS2? They use different engines and such?

Adding former downloadable-only content to a disc is possible and has been done for many games.

#236
Sylvius the Mad

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The Sarendoctrinator wrote...

That's true, but when they released Tales of the Sword Coast wasn't it on a disc?

It was.  I have the TotSC disc right here.

#237
Fast Jimmy

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The Sarendoctrinator wrote...

Again, my tech knowledge is very limited, but wouldn't the system requirements make it impossible to run games like Mass Effect on PS2? They use different engines and such?

Adding former downloadable-only content to a disc is possible and has been done for many games.


True. Putting every game on the PS2 is pretty much an impossibility. Having some way to order or obtain DLC on disc for consoles is something that has been done, by both Bioware and other companies, in the past.