236 réponses à ce sujet

[Kileyan]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Well, the protheans were very important to ME and ME2's plots. They made us care about the protheans, why sideline it if not for more money?

So we shouldn't release DLC for stuff that people find interesting and care armor? Think clearly about the message you're sending with this current post, because what I interpret you saying is: "If it's something I want and care about, I don't want it to be a part of DLC."

If it's simply a perspective of "This is content I really want," it's not much of an argument against it being DLC. It makes sense for you to want as much as you can get for as little cost as possible, so I understand your perspective. How do you quantify whether or not something is "essential" to the game. I disagree that Javik is essential. I do agree that he's interesting. I'd prefer to make DLC people find interesting instead of uninteresting. So how do we reconcile this?


(And to everyone else, suggest a forum for this to move to. This isn't a DA3 thread, but I don't want to stop the discussion).

In this specific case, I find it was in bad taste to include a friggin Prothean as day 1 paid DLC. It was bad taste because this is the big mystery other than the Reapers, we've seen their machines, spoken with their ai remnants, fought battles among their ruins, been to archaological digs, heard about them for 2 full games, dreamed of meeting one since we saw the huge chambers of life pods that ran out of power. Always wondered if there might be a way to meet a live one someday. To me, such a long standing part of the ME lore was essential, essential can mean more than "the game can be completed without him".

I really do understand the situation you are in. If you create something really interesting and closely tied to the game, it can easily be seen as essential. Where if you create something less interesting or more removed from the main story, it might not sell well. A damned if you do, damned if you don't deal. I just found this one too much on the side of a must have that felt cheesy to shove out as day 1 dlc.

I admit it, I'd have rathered Javik had been free with a new game purchase code, and the mplay had been the paid dlc:)

[wolfsite]

This feels more about entitlement more than anything.

If DLC is not compelling or does not have things to make it interesting and connected to the main game, there isn't much reason to purchase it as people would feel it was pointless add-on items trying to grab a buck.

But if DLC does have good story and information/places that connect very well to the main game then people feel they are not getting a complete game or whine about being left out.

Damned if you do damned if you don't

[Lazengan]

 http://calibur.8wayr...isa-jpeg.22416/

[Sylvius the Mad]

ledod wrote...

One's intrinsic enjoyment of said hypothetical large pepsi does not impede upon the utility provided by the small pepsi.

Sure it is.  It's missing 8 ounces of pepsi, ounces which are crucial to the overall refreshment.

When key plot points are removed from the small pepsi base game, one is affected by the existence of the large pepsi-plot dlc.

Here's your mistake.  How are "key plot points" being removed?  The content in the game should be judged on its merits - if you think there's a plot hole, then complain about that.  But pointing to extra content and complaining that it exists makes no sense.

[Darth Death]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Well, the protheans were very important to ME and ME2's plots. They made us care about the protheans, why sideline it if not for more money?

So we shouldn't release DLC for stuff that people find interesting and care armor?

You shouldn't release day one DLC period, especially if people have to pay separately in order to obtain it. It leaves a very bad impression upon customer experience - no one likes it. Whatever happened to "the customer is always right"? Or did BioWare forget?

Modifié par Darth Death, 22 novembre 2012 - 12:58 .

[Asch Lavigne]

How come everyone brings up ME and Javik as examples of "Day 1 DLC is evil" but not Shale, Sebastian (and Warden's Keep?)? Weren't they Day 1 DLC?

[Lazengan]

Asch Lavigne wrote...

How come everyone brings up ME and Javik as examples of "Day 1 DLC is evil" but not Shale, Sebastian (and Warden's Keep?)? Weren't they Day 1 DLC?

Because Javik was a prothean, and what pissed people off was that bioware insisted that a Prothean was not integral to the plot of a mass effect game

I mean, y'know, the only reason Shepard could have stopped Saren and collectors was because of a Prothean beacon, and the protheans were everywhere in the last cycle...

zzzzzzzzz...

[Atakuma]

Asch Lavigne wrote...

How come everyone brings up ME and Javik as examples of "Day 1 DLC is evil" but not Shale, Sebastian (and Warden's Keep?)? Weren't they Day 1 DLC?

Yes, but they were also free for anyone who purchased the game new.

[Asch Lavigne]

I see. Thanks for explaining some of that.

Atakuma wrote...

Asch Lavigne wrote...

How
come everyone brings up ME and Javik as examples of "Day 1 DLC is evil" but not Shale, Sebastian (and Warden's Keep?)? Weren't they Day 1 DLC?

Yes, but they were also free for anyone who purchased the game new.

Warden's Keep wasn't. Sebastain was only if you pre-ordered by a certain date. Only Shale and the Black Emporium were new game freebies.

Modifié par Asch Lavigne, 22 novembre 2012 - 01:02 .

[The Elder King]

Atakuma wrote...

Asch Lavigne wrote...

How come everyone brings up ME and Javik as examples of "Day 1 DLC is evil" but not Shale, Sebastian (and Warden's Keep?)? Weren't they Day 1 DLC?

Yes, but they were also free for anyone who purchased the game new.

WK wasn't free for any new copies, or was free in certain nations. I bought a new copy of DAO in Italy and I had only Shale as free dlc. And I remember that Seb wasn't free for non-CE owners too (though I bought the CE, so I'm not sure about it).

[DragonAgeLegend]

I think an extra character would be essential and shouldn't be bought. That's just my opinion. Basically if characters are becoming sold separately to the game then you're missing out on some part of the game others may experience. Javik, for example is a character sold in ME3, he is basically essential, he gives information on the Protheans and what happened when the reapers invaded. That's an important part of what ME is about. Also, we are already limited in the characters we can choose in ME3 compared to that of ME2.

[Asch Lavigne]

wesam987 wrote...

I think an extra character would be essential and shouldn't be bought. That's just my opinion. Basically if characters are becoming sold separately to the game then you're missing out on some part of the game others may experience. Javik, for example is a character sold in ME3, he is basically essential, he gives information on the Protheans and what happened when the reapers invaded. That's an important part of what ME is about. Also, we are already limited in the characters we can choose in ME3 compared to that of ME2.

I can see that. Javik adds something essential to the lore whereas Kasumi and Zaeed don't. Also, in my opinion, ME2 had way too many squadmates.

[The Elder King]

Lazengan wrote...

Asch Lavigne wrote...

How come everyone brings up ME and Javik as examples of "Day 1 DLC is evil" but not Shale, Sebastian (and Warden's Keep?)? Weren't they Day 1 DLC?

Because Javik was a prothean, and what pissed people off was that bioware insisted that a Prothean was not integral to the plot of a mass effect game

I mean, y'know, the only reason Shepard could have stopped Saren and collectors was because of a Prothean beacon, and the protheans were everywhere in the last cycle...

zzzzzzzzz...

Meh, I consider Seb and Javik in the same way. And Javik wasn't integral to ME3's plot. If Bioware said that he wasn't integral to the plot, they were right. Javik didn't add anything to the game, other than lore about Protheans.
Now, if you meant that Bioware said that Protheans in general weren't integral to the plot of the IP, that'd be wrong. But it's not what you wrote.

Modifié par hhh89, 22 novembre 2012 - 01:05 .

[Atakuma]

wesam987 wrote...

I think an extra character would be essential and shouldn't be bought. That's just my opinion. Basically if characters are becoming sold separately to the game then you're missing out on some part of the game others may experience. Javik, for example is a character sold in ME3, he is basically essential, he gives information on the Protheans and what happened when the reapers invaded. That's an important part of what ME is about. Also, we are already limited in the characters we can choose in ME3 compared to that of ME2.

You don't need Javik to complete the game, nor is his content of any real importance to the plot. So no, it isn't essential.

Modifié par Atakuma, 22 novembre 2012 - 01:08 .

[Darth Death]

hhh89 wrote...

Meh, I consider Seb and Javik in the same way. And Javik wasn't integral to ME3's plot.

Javik dialogue on thessia adds a good amount of info regarding the story, so I disagree with your statement. 

[VanDraegon]

Some gamers will never be convinced that any DLC content related to Game X was never anything but ripped from the original content of the game. Just so greedy devs and publishers can make more money.

Personally, i have zero problems with DLC. If i like what i see, i will buy it. Regardless if it is only pc or horse armor or something great like Legacy/MotA.

What i dont want or wont support is content that has such an impact on the game what those who dont have it will see an almost different game. Shale, Javik and Sebastion did not have such an impact. Something that would prevent me from fully enjoying the game to its full entirety, like the multiplayer component of ME3 would send me through the roof if it was released at the same time as the original game. If it was released a year later as an add on or collectors ed of the game would be something different and i would support that.

[Atakuma]

Darth Death wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Meh, I consider Seb and Javik in the same way. And Javik wasn't integral to ME3's plot.

Javik dialogue on thessia adds a good amount of info regarding the story, so I disagree with your statement. 

Except it doesn't add anything to the story, it's just more lore.

[Darth Death]

Atakuma wrote...

Darth Death wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Meh, I consider Seb and Javik in the same way. And Javik wasn't integral to ME3's plot.

Javik dialogue on thessia adds a good amount of info regarding the story, so I disagree with your statement. 

Except it doesn't add anything to the story, it's just more lore.

In your opinion, I suppose. I can't imagine playing the game without Javik there.

[Wulfram]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The practical differences are insubstantial and entirely based on volume.

And cost to the customer.  The equivalent of an expansion pack split up into DLC would end up costing you more than the original full game.  And in Bioware's case the DLC'll never ever be reduced in price or go on sale either, at least for PC.

Modifié par Wulfram, 22 novembre 2012 - 01:25 .

[wolfsite]

wesam987 wrote...

I think an extra character would be essential and shouldn't be bought. That's just my opinion. Basically if characters are becoming sold separately to the game then you're missing out on some part of the game others may experience. Javik, for example is a character sold in ME3, he is basically essential, he gives information on the Protheans and what happened when the reapers invaded. That's an important part of what ME is about. Also, we are already limited in the characters we can choose in ME3 compared to that of ME2.

Shepard: You are a Prothean tell us how we can beat the Reapers.

Javik: I'm a soldier, not a scientist, I don't know how to.


Ya real essential to the plot.

[Kileyan]

wolfsite wrote...

wesam987 wrote...

I think an extra character would be essential and shouldn't be bought. That's just my opinion. Basically if characters are becoming sold separately to the game then you're missing out on some part of the game others may experience. Javik, for example is a character sold in ME3, he is basically essential, he gives information on the Protheans and what happened when the reapers invaded. That's an important part of what ME is about. Also, we are already limited in the characters we can choose in ME3 compared to that of ME2.

Shepard: You are a Prothean tell us how we can beat the Reapers.

Javik: I'm a soldier, not a scientist, I don't know how to.


Ya real essential to the plot.

The character doesn't have to have the answer to beating the game to be considered essential. That is the fine line that I don't envy Bioware for having to deal with. I do consider something as "magical" as finally meeting the race of people we have uncovered clues about for two games as essential.

That is what Bioware need to garner from this discussion. Being able to say "the game can be completed without X character or X content", sometimes isn't the same as saying the game would have been better, more complete or met players expectations with X character included in the stock game.

[t3hTwinky]

Fallout: New Vegas had some of the best DLC I've ever seen.

Minor hooks in the main game get fleshed out into their own stories, which in turn are all related to each other. How it should be done, imo.

[DragonAgeLegend]

Asch Lavigne wrote...

wesam987 wrote...

I think an extra character would be essential and shouldn't be bought. That's just my opinion. Basically if characters are becoming sold separately to the game then you're missing out on some part of the game others may experience. Javik, for example is a character sold in ME3, he is basically essential, he gives information on the Protheans and what happened when the reapers invaded. That's an important part of what ME is about. Also, we are already limited in the characters we can choose in ME3 compared to that of ME2.

I can see that. Javik adds something essential to the lore whereas Kasumi and Zaeed don't. Also, in my opinion, ME2 had way too many squadmates.

Exactly, Zaeed and Kasumi have their own little missions that really has nothing to do with the main story of ME, they're just extra squadmates if you choose to buy them. I have no problem for them being sold as DLC.

[wolfsite]

Kileyan wrote...

wolfsite wrote...

wesam987 wrote...

I think an extra character would be essential and shouldn't be bought. That's just my opinion. Basically if characters are becoming sold separately to the game then you're missing out on some part of the game others may experience. Javik, for example is a character sold in ME3, he is basically essential, he gives information on the Protheans and what happened when the reapers invaded. That's an important part of what ME is about. Also, we are already limited in the characters we can choose in ME3 compared to that of ME2.

Shepard: You are a Prothean tell us how we can beat the Reapers.

Javik: I'm a soldier, not a scientist, I don't know how to.


Ya real essential to the plot.

The character doesn't have to have the answer to beating the game to be considered essential. That is the fine line that I don't envy Bioware for having to deal with. I do consider something as "magical" as finally meeting the race of people we have uncovered clues about for two games as essential.

That is what Bioware need to garner from this discussion. Being able to say "the game can be completed without X character or X content", sometimes isn't the same as saying the game would have been better, more complete or met players expectations with X character included in the stock game.

But the main goal of Mass Effect 3 is stopping the Reapers.  Javik had nothing that could have had any major game changing elements so it isn't necessary to complete Mass Effect 3: No knowledge of the Catalyst, no combat strategy that could have been useful, he even admits that this cycle had an edge over his again showing he is not essential to the main plot.

Plus it has been said time and time again that they began work on Javik after the game went into certification but people with entitlemet issues seem to ignore that aspect of game design.