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A great article on DLC.


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#201
Fast Jimmy

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A lot of game companies make different games from each other (except games like Sports games and FPS games), so I can't really boycott one company and support its competition now can I? Mass Effect 3 pissed me off to no end, but it's not really similar enough to games like Gears of War or Dead Space that I can turn to alternatives for solace. I can either keep shilling out for Mass Effect DLC and be dissapointed, or I can abstain, and not get any Mass Effect whatsoever. Either way is a poor choice, and I don't really see any middleground or alternatives.


Or... you could buy the base DA/ME games, and never buy or download DLC (even free ones), which is what I've done?

I've supported Bioware's main products, and then protested on the forums and boycotted their DLCs.

If Bioware was just in the business of DLCs, I would likely do neither. If I could buy a season pass, I would likely buy every DLC they released. But because they don't offer any bonus/discount/incentive for their DLCs and they (shamelessly, IMHO) package D1DLC with their products, I don't buy them at all.

#202
In Exile

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...
In Shale's case, we were told she was cut several months before the initial release date.  She'd been discussed at length on the forum, but then one day when someone asked about her David told us she'd been cut due to time.  He was very apologetic.


To add, I believe that we were told that Shale was originally going to be in Lothering (or was it Redcliffe?). Either way, it was a crip path companion who was cut and then later added back quite differently from the way originally envisioned.

#203
Vaeliorin

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

But then the game was delayed by EA, and BioWare revealed that they were going to use the extra time to finish Shale's content. So we saw that one happening in real time, and that's how it went.

That you find that scenario implausible is immaterial. We have no grounds to judge its plausibility, because we don't know what BioWare's workflow is. Moreover, the one time we have been able to see these sorts of decisions being made, this is exactly how it went.

To quote Prokhor Zakharov, "Man's unfailing capacity to believe what he prefers to be true rather than what the evidence shows to be likely and possible has always astounded me."

Lol Quoting Alpha Centauri will always gain points in my book.

That being said, I don't find the above scenario implausible... one time. I truly believe that Shale as D1DLC was just as you describe (and the fact that it was given free for new purchases makes it seem even more legit). I find it EXTREMELY unlikely that this exact scenario has played itself out again, like clockwork, in every game Bioware has released since DA:O. I think it is much more likely that it happened once and that Bioware saw this accidental course of events worthwhile to act as a DRM, and later as a way to add extra revenue.

Again... I don't mind paying the money. But I won't, simply because of the (what I view as) unscrupulously marketed way the price is being presented. Charging a premium price for a premium story to be sold on the very first day for the have's and have not's is a terrible PR action and a poor distribution mentality.

I think that it's entirely likely that they have X amount of zots and can finish 4 out of 5 things (as you said in your previous example) and the one that's considered least critical to a game being "complete" is a companion.  Certainly Bioware is known for their companions, but no recent Bioware game has had more than one or two companions who were truly critical to the game (Varric and Isabela in DA2, Morrigan and Alistair in DA, Miranda and maybe Legion in ME2, Liara in ME1/3, etc.)  The lost of one of the other companions is going to have less overall effect on the game than the loss of a plot significant mission (I imagine side quests are cut all the time and never finished and sold as DLC.)

That's not to say that that's always the way such things happen, but I think it makes sense that the thing that's going to exist as DLC (and let me say that I have no problem with EA's Project Ten Dollar, and in fact support it, but I say that as solely a PC gamer for whom a used/rental market doesn't exist, so it's a least a bit of sour grapes) is an extra companion, as opposed to plot elements that are significant to the story being told (and while Javik provided a lot of interesting historical context, he wasn't particular important to the events in ME3.)

#204
Fast Jimmy

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^

I'm not sure I buy the logic that companions are viewed as the least critical to getting the game out the door. The amount of money invested in Voice Acting, in animations, in developing combat AI logic, in completing the level designs for the areas specific to that companion... for Bioware to look at all of that and say "nope, never mind, its more important that we have other features, so we'll just give up on finishing up one of the most resource-intensive features (a companion) that we offer."

I suspect that companions are the FARTHEST thing from the chopping block late in development, as they represent a huge amount of vested work. Shale likely was the case because she was a VASTLY different character type (in terms of combat, animations, equipment, etc.) that was likely turning into tricky endeavor. By pushing back the ship date by six months, this could then be accommodated for.

I just can't help but thinking that if a companion is consistently the item that's being not fit into the normal time and budget... then maybe the person/people in charge of meeting the companion design elements need to re-evaluate their efficacy, because they have consistently missed their deadline with getting all companions ready on budget and on time. If I consistently was not making deadlines and causing my clients more money due to time constraints, I would be fired. But in this case, it looks like instead it is making Bioware more money... so I can't help but think there is more than a little picking-and-choosing when it comes to crunch time as to what can be cut, what can be completed and what is ripe for DLC.

#205
In Exile

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Fast Jimmy wrote...
I'm not sure I buy the logic that companions are viewed as the least critical to getting the game out the door. The amount of money invested in Voice Acting, in animations, in developing combat AI logic, in completing the level designs for the areas specific to that companion... for Bioware to look at all of that and say "nope, never mind, its more important that we have other features, so we'll just give up on finishing up one of the most resource-intensive features (a companion) that we offer."


But it seems that the companions and side-quests are the most modular aspects of it. None of the factors you mentioned - animantion, AI, etc. is unique to the companion. That's just the core gameplay that goes into the classes etc.

The only unique feature is VO, but I think that's precisely why you see limited conversations with non day 1 DLC companions (e.g. in ME2). Because of the limited VO aspects.

I suspect that companions are the FARTHEST thing from the chopping block late in development, as they represent a huge amount of vested work. Shale likely was the case because she was a VASTLY different character type (in terms of combat, animations, equipment, etc.) that was likely turning into tricky endeavor. By pushing back the ship date by six months, this could then be accommodated for.


I don't think so. precisely because companions are just made off the PCs animations etc. anyway. They're all recycled from core gameplay.

#206
The Sarendoctrinator

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

I find it EXCEPTIONALLY coincidental that in the past six releases, it is companions who are the ones who are being incredibly close to being finished, but just miss the cutoff to be 100% on the disc. Especially from a developer that is known for companions being one of their top features, according to their customers.

Six? I only knew about four (in DAO, ME2, DA2, and ME3). Which other companions am I missing?

#207
Fast Jimmy

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^
I apologize, my counting was getting ahead of me. I'm scratching my head to figure out why I would say six. But still, four titles, all released back-to-back-to-back, with the same exact outcome? I'd say that is the result of some deliberate action of some sort, or that someone in Bioware is terrible at managing companion development time tables (and nothing else).

#208
Foolsfolly

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

The problem with this message? I have no idea what I'm buying.


This is definitely true. It's a leap of faith. Does the season pass expire?

Definitely could use some improvement on the messaging. Hopefully as more season passes come online, there's a level of competition in what is offered between them.


It'd be nice if they were treated more like contracts. Saints Row 3, for example once again, putting up 4 dlcs for their season pass and then just shrugging and saying "Now it's 3."

But frankly I didn't even care all that much when they cut the last DLC out. The first three were so meh that I was kinda just happy it was over. The best of them was the Gangstas in Space DLC, personally, because it gave me a UFO to fly around the city in. That was the best thing I got from the season pass.

#209
The Sarendoctrinator

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

^
I apologize, my counting was getting ahead of me. I'm scratching my head to figure out why I would say six. But still, four titles, all released back-to-back-to-back, with the same exact outcome? I'd say that is the result of some deliberate action of some sort, or that someone in Bioware is terrible at managing companion development time tables (and nothing else).

Glad to know I'm not missing anyone else then. I thought it might have been from a game I haven't played yet, like BG or NWN. Hopefully the "six" isn't a bad omen about DA3 and ME4...

I want to believe they're not doing it on purpose, and that seems to be the case with Shale (which was fixed by the ultimate edition anyway), but it's really frustrating to see DLC characters becoming so common. The prothean, especially. Someone should have known that wouldn't go over well with their fanbase. If it's going to be a new standard that BioWare games will have DLC characters, then I'd like to see ultimate editions like DAO's also become standard.

#210
TheRealJayDee

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Emzamination wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

There's a three-strike permaban law?

I must have missed that.


I did too, until I had to plead my case to chris on why I shouldn't be permabanned. Apparently if you get 3 temp bans no matter how minor, you get perma'd.


Interesting... Image IPB

#211
Fast Jimmy

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It'd be nice if they were treated more like contracts. Saints Row 3, for example once again, putting up 4 dlcs for their season pass and then just shrugging and saying "Now it's 3."

But frankly I didn't even care all that much when they cut the last DLC out. The first three were so meh that I was kinda just happy it was over. The best of them was the Gangstas in Space DLC, personally, because it gave me a UFO to fly around the city in. That was the best thing I got from the season pass.


Personally, I'd like to keep it ambiguous. What if they promise four, but only deliver three? Or what if they promise three, but wind up wanting to deliver a fourth? Would they not do it? Would they not give a discount for the fourth? Would the fourth then be seen as a 'conspiracy?' Too many problems.

To be clear, I would support Bioware moving to a season pass concept IF they changed nothing about their DLC model except offering the discount and if they moved their D1DLC out until three to four weeks after release (and used the extra time to improve the content). Compare Jahvik's DLC to, say, Skyrim's first DLC - Dawnguard. Roughly the same price, but with Skyrim creating mountains more content. I think Leviathan is a better contender for a good Bioware DLC.. but it's not Day One. Or Legacy - new levels, enemies, content, story, etc. I don't think that the content of 'From Ashes' comes close to Legacy, but they have roughly the same price.

Point being, Bioware doesn't need to change their DLCs. They just need to change when they release them and how they distribute them. Expecting fans to love the fact that DLC is available on the first day seems incredibly myopic to how the fans ACTUALLY feel and react to it.

#212
A Crusty Knight Of Colour

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TheRealJayDee wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

There's a three-strike permaban law?

I must have missed that.


I did too, until I had to plead my case to chris on why I shouldn't be permabanned. Apparently if you get 3 temp bans no matter how minor, you get perma'd.


Interesting... Image IPB


That a new rule? I've been banned 3 times.

As for the argument on DLC, is pay-for Day 1 DLC such an advantage that it is the difference between hiring and firing core development teams? Seems to me that the only way Day 1 DLC being the difference being hiring/firing/reassigning if those teams were surplus teams hired on a temporary basis to help with crunch and all that.

Even if that were not the case, is it still such a massive difference between pay-for Day 1 DLC and free-for-new-copies Day 1 DLC, despite DLC being primarily a vehicle to push away used copy sales, and not just a general money-making incentive? At least that's what publishers are arguing.

Even putting aside all that, would it still be necessary for future games like Mass Effect 4, which, as a result of being developed in Montreal, can claim tax breaks of up to 20% of employee salaries because the government subsidizes video game development there?

Now, even if we ignore all that, I'm Australian. Games are already $90 on release here. They used to be $100. Modern Warfare 2 was priced at $110 on release at EB Games, just because they could.

The idea of story-content in a story-oriented game that you need to pay extra for, despite it being available from Day 1 and partially on the disc, pisses me off, and would not endear the company to most gamers. It looks greedy. That's all there is to it.

DLC in the vein of New Vegas works fine. That was mostly content that would not make it in time for release. They cut it, left story hooks and clues, then set about to re-working the original ideas into new storylines and content that were worth the money on their own, but tied into, and enhanced, the overall game.

Modifié par CrustyBot, 24 novembre 2012 - 02:00 .


#213
wsandista

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I think that a season pass could possibly work, but there could be complications,

Anyways, I think that Day 1 DLC is horrible, because a Day 1 patch(if there even is one) often leaves several horrible bugs in place(like the facemorph bug in ME3 or the Isabela bug in DA2) that border on gamebreaking. Also I prefer an expansion to DLC, because it seems like you get much more for your money. DLC often seems to be too expensive especially when compared to a whole expansion. Bioware DLC in particular seems very pricey and light on content. YMMV of course.

#214
lil yonce

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Day-1 DLC is in bad taste and content locked on disc is outright ridiculous. And I read the leaked ME3 script. Javik was cut content that affected the storyline. Chopping him out of the game ultimately weakened the Virmire Survivor's storyline, and as a huge Ashley fan, I was incredibly upset. I never bought From Ashes and I'm never going to after that slap in the face. I didn't buy Leviathan and I won't buy the Omega DLC either. The unresolved Aria situation in ME3 was really weird. It felt like I was missing something that was supposed to be in the game. The ME3 DLC, IMO, is just more drama heaped on a mega-pile of recent PR disasters. I can't support it.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 24 novembre 2012 - 02:23 .


#215
sympathy4sarenreturns

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Here's my personal take on dlc. I'm all for dlc that adds to a game after a game is over and a month or more passes by. I think we'd be kidding ourselves if we didn't want new and expansive content to our favorite games. I also think that its ok to charge as much as a company wants for said dlc. But when I pay $60 for a brand new game, I have an expectation that I am buying a full, complete, content packed game. I find it offensive and distasteful when I buy a game...with money I work hard for...and content is being released same day as dlc for extra money. Charge me $70, don't try to sell me something that should be in the game to begin with. When a company gets my money, that's an individual expectation that I have. I'm cool with weapons packs and clothing packs, for I find them undesirable to begin with because it feels like a gimme when I want to earn those items in-game by playing as a reward. But even then, very limited. Because it means if there is a lot, im getting weak effort for my dollar.

Dark Souls was indeed a good example of good dlc. It came out well after the game, provided decent playtime, gave a few new bosses, a newly explorable area, new enemies, and expanded lore. It was cool to see the hints of Darkroot Garden's history proved close...some people's guesses on lore came out accurate...as one who knows Dark Souls' obscure but perfectly teased and hinted lore knows.

The Skyrim has had great dlc. $20 for 40 hours of good, new content? Yes! And CDPR provides complimentary free dlc. Bethesda also provided great dlc for Fallout 3 and New Vegas...obviously only publishing New Vegas. Rockstar, Ubisoft, and EA are a little bad in trying to extrapolate extra cash from people who just spent $60 for brand new.

#216
Allan Schumacher

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I've always found this confusing. If the content is being created at the same time as the rest of the game, finished by the time the game is released (in the case of Day 1 DLC), and parts of it are even present on the disc... then why is it being developed as DLC at all rather than a part of the base game?


Because base content can hit lockdown months before the final game is shipped.

My understanding is that this is what happened with the Stone Prisoner.  That content was cut from the game because it wasn't going to be ready in time, and then the game was basically finished but had its release delayed, so that created this large-ish period where the main game was just getting polished and the designers were able to go back and finish Stone Prisoner (but not add it back into the main game).


Yes.  DAO in particular had a longer than typical period of content lockdown.  It is still important to note that this was a bit unusual given the circumstances.

#217
Allan Schumacher

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The Sarendoctrinator wrote...
Thanks for the explanation. It does makes more sense now, though I'm still not happy with the way some companies are handling DLC. If everyone just released ultimate editions like DAO's, which was the only way I got to play The Stone Prisoner and the other awesome missions that came with it, then I probably wouldn't mind DLC at all. More content that you guys otherwise wouldn't have been able to create is great, but if it doesn't become available to everyone, then some fans are going to feel left out. And in the case of plot-important missions like Arrival, very confused when they start the next game unless they watched youtube videos.


I understand your concern and it can suck to be left out.

I find it similar to the idea of supporting older platforms and operating systems, however.  Which doesn't make it any easier for someone such as yourself, but that's the way that I see it :\\

#218
Maria Caliban

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sympathy4sarenreturns wrote...

Here's my personal take on dlc. I'm all for dlc that adds to a game after a game is over and a month or more passes by.

A month after the game comes out, I've already uninstalled it and moved on to something else.

#219
Allan Schumacher

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CELL55 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

*SNIP*

As a gamer to a gamer, if you ever feel a game company is nickel and diming you and treating you unfairly, the best way to let them know is to not reward them by purchasing their products. That's probably always the strongest message you can send.

*SNIP*


I take issue with this. If, for example, I felt that Bioware was nickle and diming me, I couldn't go spend my money on another Dragon Age or Mass Effect game, as only Bioware makes those. There really isn't anything else quite like those on the market IMO, and boycotting then just seems counterproductive.

A lot of game companies make different games from each other (except games like Sports games and FPS games), so I can't really boycott one company and support its competition now can I? Mass Effect 3 pissed me off to no end, but it's not really similar enough to games like Gears of War or Dead Space that I can turn to alternatives for solace. I can either keep shilling out for Mass Effect DLC and be dissapointed, or I can abstain, and not get any Mass Effect whatsoever. Either way is a poor choice, and I don't really see any middleground or alternatives.


You paint yourself as a slave to game companies though.  I love video gaming, but if I didn't feel I was getting value for my money I would stop.  You're right that the alternative from a pure video game perspective may not be there, but the alternative to playing a video game need not always be "play a different video game."

If you always say that Day One DLC is the worst, but you always buy it, I think you undermine your argument.  You have altered your argument to being more "I would like to get more content for my money" (which is what I expect every consumer to want) as opposed to "I feel I am being treated unfairly."


That being said, I don't find the above scenario implausible... one
time. I truly believe that Shale as D1DLC was just as you describe (and
the fact that it was given free for new purchases makes it seem even
more legit). I find it EXTREMELY unlikely that this exact scenario has
played itself out again, like clockwork, in every game Bioware has
released since DA:O. I think it is much more likely that it happened
once and that Bioware saw this accidental course of events worthwhile to
act as a DRM, and later as a way to add extra revenue.


Perhaps you underestimate how much stuff actually gets cut for videogames as well, or that your assumptions about where the big costs are are not correct.  There is a lot of stuff (not just companions) that often doesn't make it despite a lot of work being done and it being mostly complete anyway.  This is why sometimes a relatively short extension of 2-3 months can make a world of difference.

As I said to Gibb Shepard though, because of the DLC model you are right that development will start to see devs creating content alongside the main game.  Now you as the gamer can feel that that is unfair, but that doesn't mean that the content in the DLC would have been in the game otherwise.

From what little I heard, From Ashes wasn't complete before lockdown, and I have no visibility on when it's work was started and when it was decided to become DLC.  However, even if it was specifically created long before release to be DLC, the alternative to DLC doesn't guarantee "Javik for free."  It would likely mean "No Javik."

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 24 novembre 2012 - 07:26 .


#220
Allan Schumacher

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I'm not sure I buy the logic that companions are viewed as the least critical to getting the game out the door. The amount of money invested in Voice Acting, in animations, in developing combat AI logic, in completing the level designs for the areas specific to that companion... for Bioware to look at all of that and say "nope, never mind, its more important that we have other features, so we'll just give up on finishing up one of the most resource-intensive features (a companion) that we offer."


They are often easy to completely remove from the game without requiring mass rewrites of the story or other system wide changes. Optional side content is often easy to chop as well (although that can provide a balance issue if there is an expectation that the player will accumulate resources based on side content).

Imagine cutting Redcliffe from DAO instead of Shale.  Literally just saying "this content is no longer accessible" without any other changes.

An advantage of cutting Shale is that we pretty must can just say stop. Sure it sucks to lose the money in voice acting or whatever, but those costs are sunk. We don't need to proactively remove Shale's content from the game, since the checks for "is shale in the party" are going to fail simply because Shale isn't in the party.


As an example, DA2 originally had experimented with having "fake intros" to all of the acts. So like Fake Blightlands, we were going to have a fake, exaggerated intro by Varric that depicted one of the key plot points in the upcoming Act.

It was removed because there were issues with pacing, it started to get old, and distracted from some of the seriousness intended with the story.

When we removed those intro components, the game build was completely broken the next day. This is because the entry points into the next acts required them. So when you joined off to Gamlen, the game hard crashed and couldn't be continued. This is because the area transition was going to content that had now been deactivated, and all of the dependencies weren't caught. Some lost most of a day of in game work (teams that don't require legit playthroughs can still work, but like burnthrough QA was blocked and sitting on their hands) as they cleaned up all of the dependencies. If we thought we got them all, but missed an Act 3 one, well someone is working late because the Act 3 breakage wasn't properly detected until 6 PM because burnthrough was already behind schedule due to the build being broken earlier in the day.


I suspect that companions are the FARTHEST thing from the chopping block
late in development, as they represent a huge amount of vested work.
Shale likely was the case because she was a VASTLY different character
type (in terms of combat, animations, equipment, etc.) that was likely
turning into tricky endeavor. By pushing back the ship date by six
months, this could then be accommodated for.


Everything late in development represents a huge amount of vested work.  Late in development cuts always suck.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 24 novembre 2012 - 07:34 .


#221
Gatt9

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Allan Schumacher wrote...
As I said to Gibb Shepard though, because of the DLC model you are right that development will start to see devs creating content alongside the main game.  Now you as the gamer can feel that that is unfair, but that doesn't mean that the content in the DLC would have been in the game otherwise.

From what little I heard, From Ashes wasn't complete before lockdown, and I have no visibility on when it's work was started and when it was decided to become DLC.  However, even if it was specifically created long before release to be DLC, the alternative to DLC doesn't guarantee "Javik for free."  It would likely mean "No Javik."


No we won't,  not for long.

Publishers are shooting themselves in the foot now with the whole DLC thing.  It's increasing the cost of a game from $60 to $70 or $80,  for a product the consumer has no option to try beforehand.

The normal path would be for the consumer to turn to the Gaming Press in order to determine if the game is worth that expense (Which is already a day's worth of work for many,  not trivial).  But the Gaming Press is firmly in the pocket of Publishers as we saw with ME3,  and again in the past couple of weeks with the Eurogamer incident.  So when it becomes clear to the consumer that the Gaming Press isn't trustworthy,  what do they do?

They do what we've seen people increasingly stating they'll do.  "I'll wait for the release with all of the DLC packed in".  In order to meet their expectations of value,  and to determine if the product is worth the expense by waiting for word of mouth,  the consumers are deciding in increasing numbers to wait for titles that they didn't feel were "Must have".

This not only pushes their purchase out of the Publisher's "Critical" first 4 weeks of release window,  it also means that those consumers do not pay for the DLC.  The development cost of the DLC is not being paid for.

Worse,  it allows time for that nasty word-of-mouth to cause the sale to be lost due to mediocre quality,  or the consumer simply forgetting about the title.

Bioware's an extremely good canidate for this to happen now.  Between DA2,  ME3,  and TOR,  Bioware's titles are now moving into "Wait" land,  especially with EA's insistance on obscene amounts of DLC decreasing the perceived value of buying on Day 1.

Which ultimately is catastropic for the Publisher.  Especially EA since they appear to be more interested in revenue initiatives than making a great game.  Shareholders won't understand they now have a long tail for sales,  since Publishers have taught them that the first 4 weeks are all that matters,  and there'll be massive investor backlash.

Especially if the movement turns towards a decidedly large portion of the buyers waiting until the DLC is "Free" in a "Deluxe edition (GOTY edition,  etc)",  which will result in increasing losses.  Since we already know 60% of the people who bought ME3 didn't buy the DLC,  we can get a rough idea of how bad this would be.  Imagine if more than half of the sales of a title didn't occur for 6-12 months.  2 to 4 quarterlies later just to see the full revenues from a title is going to look really ugly in reports.

As far as Javik goes,  as I said earlier.  He has extensive banter with the party that could only occur if it'd been recorded at the same time as the rest.  It's clear he was intended from early in development,  and clear he was intentionally cut because of all the companions he was the only one that they could cut that would generate sales.  They could not cut Tali or Garrus,  they'd have literally tanked sales.  James wouldn't sell DLC,  and he was far more useless and disinteresting than Javik. 

He was chosen not because he was expendable,  but because he would sell DLC.  So even if it was a "We have to cut something" decision,  it was only clearly motivated to cut the character most likely to sell DLC,  because rationally,  it makes no sense to cut Javik and leave James unless you're trying to sell it.

#222
Emzamination

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CrustyBot wrote...

That a new rule? I've been banned 3 times.


I dunno if it's new, this is what chris told me "Given that this has now been multiple temporary bans for you (3), this ban
will be a permanent ban unless you can explain to me why you should be
allowed to stay."  
Sure explains why I haven't seen a post from any vocal forum members like killerK, reptillianrob, deedra, ect in ages. Anyways I wouldn't attempt to go for a 4th ban, crustybot.


@ Dlc - Why are you guys stressing so much? There are many legitimate alternatives to purchasing dlc if you can't afford it such as survey and reward sites. No need to expend energy putting up a shielded argument around the real issue.

#223
The Sarendoctrinator

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

I understand your concern and it can suck to be left out.

I find it similar to the idea of supporting older platforms and operating systems, however.  Which doesn't make it any easier for someone such as yourself, but that's the way that I see it

I guess the two situations would have something in common, if people are unable to play the new games coming out because their PC doesn't meet the system requirements. I've never completely understood how it works, so I don't have much experience with that myself. (Or maybe I do, since this is a big reason why I never got into PC gaming.)

They are often easy to completely remove from the game without requiring mass rewrites of the story or other system wide changes. Optional side content is often easy to chop as well (although that can provide a balance issue if there is an expectation that the player will accumulate resources based on side content).

Imagine cutting Redcliffe from DAO instead of Shale.  Literally just saying "this content is no longer accessible" without any other changes.

An advantage of cutting Shale is that we pretty must can just say stop. Sure it sucks to lose the money in voice acting or whatever, but those costs are sunk. We don't need to proactively remove Shale's content from the game, since the checks for "is shale in the party" are going to fail simply because Shale isn't in the party.

Obviously cutting something as important as Redcliffe or the other main missions isn't an option, but what about some of the optional side quests that don't relate to plot or character development? Are they more difficult to remove from the game, just finished earlier than something like a companion which has more content, or there's already been a ton of them cut from the game already that fans never find out about? A combination of all three?

Gatt9 wrote...

They do what we've seen people increasingly stating they'll do.  "I'll wait for the release with all of the DLC packed in".  In order to meet their expectations of value,  and to determine if the product is worth the expense by waiting for word of mouth,  the consumers are deciding in increasing numbers to wait for titles that they didn't feel were "Must have".

This is basically what I've been doing with most games (only a few are day-one buys now), and I hope it's sending a message that a lot of people like these ultimate editions.

Emzamination wrote...

@ Dlc - Why are you guys stressing so much? There are many legitimate alternatives to purchasing dlc if you can't afford it such as survey and reward sites. No need to expend energy putting up a shielded argument around the real issue.

I can't speak for anyone else's reasons, but mine isn't motivated by the price of DLC. I'm just against using an internet connection with my gaming consoles and missing out on so much content because of that.

I've been suggesting for quite some time that BioWare release a DAO-style ultimate edition for the Mass Effect games with all of the DLC on the disc (including them as free downloads is useless to me, just a piece of paper with some numbers/letters printed on it), which would mean buying a second copy of their games at full price. I spend enough time on BioWare's games in multiple playthroughs that a second buy is well worth it to me if I can finally get what I've been missing out on, but for that the content needs to be offered in a way that's available to me.

Modifié par The Sarendoctrinator, 24 novembre 2012 - 09:37 .


#224
Allan Schumacher

Allan Schumacher
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Publishers are shooting themselves in the foot now with the whole DLC thing. It's increasing the cost of a game from $60 to $70 or $80, for a product the consumer has no option to try beforehand.


No. At best you could argue that it's episodic. You're making the assumption that there aren't people that don't buy DLC that aren't happy with their purchases, and don't feel as though they are missing out because they don't have the DLC. This isn't true. (I'm an example of it. Very rarely do I buy DLC, though I am typically very happy with my gaming purchases).

Furthermore, customers are more than within their right to wait to purchase games until they are a lower price if they aren't convinced the game will be worth the money. I encourage gamers to do this too. I personally look at a new release and gauge my interest level for it, and then determine the price point at which I will buy it. This is often not top price at retail. I suppose if one is starved for gaming (my gaming interests are exceptionally diverse) this may not be the case, but it still comes back to "the alternative to playing one video game need not be play a different video game."

They do what we've seen people increasingly stating they'll do. "I'll wait for the release with all of the DLC packed in". In order to meet their expectations of value, and to determine if the product is worth the expense by waiting for word of mouth, the consumers are deciding in increasing numbers to wait for titles that they didn't feel were "Must have".


Does it? Or is that just what you think it does? Do you have anything to substantiate your perspective? Preferably numbers if possible.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 24 novembre 2012 - 10:15 .


#225
Allan Schumacher

Allan Schumacher
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I guess the two situations would have something in common, if people are unable to play the new games coming out because their PC doesn't meet the system requirements. I've never completely understood how it works, so I don't have much experience with that myself. (Or maybe I do, since this is a big reason why I never got into PC gaming.)


It's also equivalent to whole platforms being phased out. The PSX is irrelevant now, for example.

Obviously cutting something as important as Redcliffe or the other main missions isn't an option, but what about some of the optional side quests that don't relate to plot or character development? Are they more difficult to remove from the game, just finished earlier than something like a companion which has more content, or there's already been a ton of them cut from the game already that fans never find out about? A combination of all three?


Side quests do get cut from the game. If we include early developments, tons and tons and tons of things get early prototypes but ultimately are axed for a variety of reasons. Some stuff gets farther along in development to varying degrees, and still doesn't make it in game despite investment of time. Could be scope reasons, a realization that the system wasn't enjoyable, redundancy, and so forth. So yeah, side quest ideas do get cut. Lots of things do. Everything always has an opportunity cost associated with it, in that spending time working on one thing means you're not spending time working on some other thing.

I just used Redcliffe as an example because it illustrates that not all cut content is cut the same way. Even just using characters, imagine cutting Alistair or Morrigan instead of Shale.