110 réponses à ce sujet

[Fredward]

I accuse this thread title of being flirty to the 9th degree! xp

[Raikas]

thats1evildude wrote...

If you just want to be nice, then pick the diplomatic options.

Jesus, why do people have a problem with this? Was the large heart icon not glaringly obvious? Should it be changed to an icon of two stick figures humping to remove any ambiguity?

I think the OP's point was more about flirt lines that they'd like to have seen as non-heart options - not that they accidentally picked the heart.   

The teaching Fenris to read bit is one of the best examples of a line that makes as much sense for a friend as for a potential lover.  I generally have my Hawkes flirt with everyone (because hey, why not make it a surprise when someone shows up at the house), and even I thought it was odd that it was a flirt line and not a generic friendship one.

[Babaganoosh013]

(sorry, my 11 month old decided to projectile vomit on me as I was typing this, so my train of thought got cut off mid-sentence.)

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Babaganoosh013 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

In the Anders situation he shouldn't react so badly if he just meets Hawke a little while ago and gets turned down. Sure he would be dissapointed but not outright angry with you.

This is the problem with numerical abstractions. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Anders' line "I'm sorry, I misunderstood. It won't happen again?" That doesn't strike me as angry.

He gets 10 rivalry. Is 10 rivalry "angry?" It's certainly not permanent though.

I don't get why there would be a "rivalry" for that, or for any s/s (or opposite for homosexual pc's) flirting initiation by any NPC. A non-rivalry "I don't roll that way" should suffice without hurting the NPC's feelings towards you.

You get the rivalry regardless of whether or not the PC is male or female.  It has nothing to do with homosexual or heterosexual behaviour.

Maybe give an option to hurt their feelings as well, but I would hope
that a NPC would be emotionally stable enough to handle someone
rejecting based on what their happy bits are, instead of something about
them personally.

It's nice to hope that an NPC is emotionally stable enough to not be offended, but why must that be the case?  This IS Anders we're talking about here.  And I think he is able to get over it pretty quickly.  He made a play, you said no.  He feels sheepish and embarrassed and it stings a bit.

I believe Fenris had the same rivalry score if you rejected him as well as a straight male Hawke. (I assume the same thing happens for Merrill and Isabella for straight female Hawkes - My 3rd playthrough that I didn't finish was a female mage) Obviously none of our companions are the bastions of self-actualization, but even still no matter how accpted s/s relationships are or seem to be in Thedas, I assume that a good solid majority of the people of Thedas are straight, so I am assuming that one shouldn't just expect someone to be bi or homosexual. Therefore, no matter how emotionally mature or immature they might be, it shouldn't sting as bad, if at all if the one that they are attracted to is attracted to those of a different sex than the one with the potential crush.

Now, if you let it be known that you are bi (i.e. flirt with men and women), or in this case of Anders/Fenris - gay (or female straight); yes, since you are attracted to men I wouldn't blame them for feeling burned. Otherwise it just seems like a cat feeling burned because a dog-person gets a new dog.

I just hope that in the next game, women don't feel burned by gay men, and bi/gay men don't feel burned by straight men (and the same with female PC's) to the same degree anyways. It just doesn't make sense to me if they are.

[Onibru]

Modifié par Onibru, 23 novembre 2012 - 10:03 .

[Onibru]

[MorningBird]

I actually picked the broken heart in my last play through in the first conversation with Anders after his recruitment quest. Hawks said something to the affect of "our relationship is strictly business" and Anders was just like "understood" with no approval gain or loss.

[Allan Schumacher]

I believe Fenris had the same rivalry score if you rejected him as well as a straight male Hawke. (I assume the same thing happens for Merrill and Isabella for straight female Hawkes - My 3rd playthrough that I didn't finish was a female mage) Obviously none of our companions are the bastions of self-actualization, but even still no matter how accpted s/s relationships are or seem to be in Thedas, I assume that a good solid majority of the people of Thedas are straight, so I am assuming that one shouldn't just expect someone to be bi or homosexual. Therefore, no matter how emotionally mature or immature they might be, it shouldn't sting as bad, if at all if the one that they are attracted to is attracted to those of a different sex than the one with the potential crush.

I don't remember all of the conversations, but you're right, they do. Whether or not the NPCs get rivalry is entirely dependent on the NPC.

I am skeptical that spending the extra time to properly go and hook up those lines so that the rivalry allocations also take into account the player's gender is really worth the time.

This is an unpleasant line in the sand to draw, because you're actively stating that we should spend extra resources to make sure those playing heterosexual characters don't suffer the same penalty in those characters. Especially when, as far as I'm concerned, it's trivial to rationalize "he misread you, he feels frustrated and embarrassed by it." Homosexual characters, however, will still be penalized by any rejections towards opposite gender PCs. Distilled down: penalize the homosexual characters, but not the heterosexual characters.

It gets to the point where I start to feel a disconnect because I cannot understand why this is such a bother for people.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 24 novembre 2012 - 12:13 .

[Wulfram]

Getting rivalry for turning people down doesn't make any sense. Getting disapproval for turning people down does though.

[Iakus]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I am skeptical that spending the extra time to properly go and hook up those lines so that the rivalry allocations also take into account the player's gender is really worth the time.

This is an unpleasant line in the sand to draw, because you're actively stating that we should spend extra resources to make sure those playing heterosexual characters don't suffer the same penalty in those characters. Especially when, as far as I'm concerned, it's trivial to rationalize "he misread you, he feels frustrated and embarrassed by it." Homosexual characters, however, will still be penalized by any rejections towards opposite gender PCs. Distilled down: penalize the homosexual characters, but not the heterosexual characters.

It gets to the point where I start to feel a disconnect because I cannot understand why this is such a bother for people.

I don't think rivalry (or friendship) points should be allocated towards starting/turning down a relationship at all.  As I pointed out, equating the reaction to an action that strikes at the heart of a character's outlook on life (such as Ander's pass with handing over a qunari mage for execution) implies a bizarre sense of priorities. 

Once a relationship has started, sure.  That can reflect intense emotional roller coasters and so on.

To avoid the issue completely, I'd suggest going the ME3 route and make all relationships completely player-dependant to start.  No flirting until the player initiates with a really obvious dialogue chocie.  It's not very realistic, but it probably avoids the most problems.

[Babaganoosh013]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I don't remember all of the conversations, but you're right, they do. Whether or not the NPCs get rivalry is entirely dependent on the NPC.

I am skeptical that spending the extra time to properly go and hook up those lines so that the rivalry allocations also take into account the player's gender is really worth the time.

This is an unpleasant line in the sand to draw, because you're actively stating that we should spend extra resources to make sure those playing heterosexual characters don't suffer the same penalty in those characters. Especially when, as far as I'm concerned, it's trivial to rationalize "he misread you, he feels frustrated and embarrassed by it." Homosexual characters, however, will still be penalized by any rejections towards opposite gender PCs. Distilled down: penalize the homosexual characters, but not the heterosexual characters.

It gets to the point where I start to feel a disconnect because I cannot understand why this is such a bother for people.

I'm not saying punish homosexuals, not heterosexuals, because I'm assuming that if you play a gay male character, and you reject Merrill and Isabella, you would get the same 10 rivalry penalty and the same thing applies. (I've only played it through it twice when I first got it.)

As far as the extra time goes to make it, if it's that big of a deal, and adding an extra (even in general) "don't hurt their feelings" line in the wheel isn't a quick and easy enough fix, why not just get rid of the rivalry points all together for rejecting an unwanted advance, or not having it come up if you don't respond previously with a flirty response of any kind, to any one, man or woman (with a point penalty anyways, for the sake of not wanting to creativly limiting some of the more friskier characters.)

[Reznore57]

But it's like having friendship point with Isabella when you flirt , you have a huge boost with her.
It fits her personality .
It's obvious Anders has a thing for Hawke , he's pretty desperate about relationship , even when you start flirting he gets all romeo and juliet tragedy vide ...
Anders , you can't toy with his feelings , he doesn't like it.
Fenris , plays the "I don't care , sorry to bother you" + big puppy eyes that claims "you broke my heart ".
Merrill , I don't know .

I don't mind , It's nothing compared to Leliana , every single time i played , I had a jalousy fit coming out of nowhere.
That was really strange because no love going on , no kissing , nothing , it's like she's in her own world , watching your pc sleep as a creep , and the maker send her a message that obviously the warden was in love with her.

[ImperatorMortis]

Being extra nice to someone in real life is often considered to be flirtation.

[iOnlySignIn]

thats1evildude wrote...

He gets a bit grumpy when you shoot him down. I wouldn't call it anger. Anger would involve glowing blue eyes and him trying to yank your head off.

Yep.

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Being extra nice to someone in real life is often considered to be flirtation.

Yeah, I can testify to that.

It's better to have this problem in game than IRL I say.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 24 novembre 2012 - 02:00 .

[Taint Master]

Wulfram wrote...

Getting rivalry for turning people down doesn't make any sense. Getting disapproval for turning people down does though.

Rivalry points are just a game mechanic.  Disapproval or rivalry points, they both represent your companions disagreeing with something you've said or done.

Don't take them so literally.

[ImperatorMortis]

Taint Master wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Getting rivalry for turning people down doesn't make any sense. Getting disapproval for turning people down does though.

Rivalry points are just a game mechanic.  Disapproval or rivalry points, they both represent your companions disagreeing with something you've said or done.

Don't take them so literally.

Maybe there should be a bar for rivarly, and disaprovel? Might add some more depth to character interaction. 

[TEWR]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

In the Anders situation he shouldn't react so badly if he just meets Hawke a little while ago and gets turned down. Sure he would be dissapointed but not outright angry with you.

This is the problem with numerical abstractions. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Anders' line "I'm sorry, I misunderstood. It won't happen again?" That doesn't strike me as angry.

More like "Everyone's trying to control my thoughts. Fine! We'll have a strictly business relationship"

That's pretty much what he says verbatim.

Frankly, I don't have a problem with him flirting with me first, or him showing disappointment if I turn him down. That's part of life. You flirt, you either succeed or fail, you're either happy or you're disappointed at the result.

I do however wish there was a seemingly neutral way of turning him down that wouldn't cause him to act somewhat hostile at what I say and that what I say doesn't make him "disapprove" of it -- unless it's something clearly rude.

In this case, if Hawke said "Get those damn thoughts out of your head!" and Anders got a bit angry at that without it being tied to his F/R meter, that'd be fine.

Because... well....

He gets 10 rivalry. Is 10 rivalry "angry?" It's certainly not permanent though.

It is angry. Well... as angry as he can get when he's not glowing like a disco ball and tearing people limb from limb. It also goes against how David Gaider personally described the F/R system prior to DAII's release, where just because you got a Rivalry increase doesn't mean they're disapproving of you.

Which in DAII, wasn't the case for the Anders moment. Turning him down has him disapproving of what you say and gaining Rivalry points for it.

I do have to wonder though why there were two flirts and only one non-flirt. 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 novembre 2012 - 06:13 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Maybe there should be a bar for rivarly, and disaprovel? Might add some more depth to character interaction.

There is.

[Dhiro]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Maybe there should be a bar for rivarly, and disaprovel? Might add some more depth to character interaction.

There is.

In DA III? Is this a thing? I've read Gaider suggesting something like that in the past, but are we getting a confirmation?

[ImperatorMortis]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Maybe there should be a bar for rivarly, and disaprovel? Might add some more depth to character interaction.

There is.

Cool. 

[TEWR]

thats1evildude wrote...

If you just want to be nice, then pick the diplomatic options.

Jesus, why do people have a problem with this? Was the large heart icon not glaringly obvious? Should it be changed to an icon of two stick figures humping to remove any ambiguity?

For Anders, picking diplomatic options leads to a Flirt - No flirt choice set with no way to really let him down easily -- from how I took the only non-flirt option.

You can't really clarify what you were saying as having no underlying hints at wanting a relationship in that branch. It's either "Yup, let's flirt" or "Damn, man... don't think about me that way."

[Scott Sion]

Until I played DA2 I hard know idea offering to teach someone how to read counts as flirting. I can confirm it won't get you laid in real life.

[esper]

Dhiro wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Maybe there should be a bar for rivarly, and disaprovel? Might add some more depth to character interaction.

There is.

In DA III? Is this a thing? I've read Gaider suggesting something like that in the past, but are we getting a confirmation?

I think he meant that the new bar will be for both disapproval/rivalry and not that we finally get those two bars we have be asking for for ages.

[nightscrawl]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Maybe there should be a bar for rivarly, and disaprovel? Might add some more depth to character interaction.

There is.

I think this person means two bars: one for rivalry, one for disapproval, leading to "more depth to character interaction" because the game is tracking more than one thing.

For my part, I'm skeptical of the "let's just add more bars" for all of these character interactions. While I do think that would be ideal in terms of visual feedback for the player, more bars also means more things for the game to track, and more systems that have to interact with each other.

Also, there is the player camp that would prefer to not see bars at all, just like real life where you have to actually interact with a person and receive feedback during interaction in the form of words, gestures, and facial expression.

I think the amount of information currently displayed for both DAO and DA2 is just fine. If the game has some set point like "Questioning Beliefs for <NPC> appears at 50% friendship OR rivalry" and I can actually see that, that's all I need really.

[JimboGee]

bob_20000 wrote...

And your former "friend" does not really deserve to live. Especially if he actually did that. (I'm assuming he didn't.)

Also:
Faith in Humanity = Lost

So your form of extremism is ok but not his form ?

[Allan Schumacher]

I think this person means two bars: one for rivalry, one for disapproval, leading to "more depth to character interaction" because the game is tracking more than one thing.

Whoops! I totally misread that. Yeah they are asking for two progress bars. So no, I'm not confirming anything for DA3. I misread the "rivalry and disapproval" as "rivalry and friendship" because... bananas? (I'm playing King Arthur II and reading forums during loading screens...)

From what David has indicated there's going to be a new type of system though. I think an evolution of the Friendship-Rivalry or something. He's mentioned it on the boards but I don't remember the details.

Also, there is the player camp that would prefer to not see bars at all, just like real life where you have to actually interact with a person and receive feedback during interaction in the form of words, gestures, and facial expression.

Hehe I'm actually one of these people