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[nightscrawl]

Alright... this is a lengthy post concerning the first Anders dialog. If you don't care, you can skip this. I'm posting this because there is perpetual confusion and misinformation, which I'll wager mainly stems from people posting who have only limited plays (played either on one gender or not seen all options).

I'll also add that while you can see some of the choices here, they are not ALL there, specifically those from a male Hawke.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

If you just want to be nice, then pick the diplomatic options.

Jesus, why do people have a problem with this? Was the large heart icon not glaringly obvious? Should it be changed to an icon of two stick figures humping to remove any ambiguity?

For Anders, picking diplomatic options leads to a Flirt - No flirt choice set with no way to really let him down easily -- from how I took the only non-flirt option.

You can't really clarify what you were saying as having no underlying hints at wanting a relationship in that branch. It's either "Yup, let's flirt" or "Damn, man... don't think about me that way."

To add to this, there are a few key parts in this important conversation with Anders. Depending on how you respond you could conceivably get no romantic dialog at all which leads to mage/templar issues, get only partial romantic (ending the conversation at a rejection), or going for the full romance conversation.

The first key point involves NO FLIRT ICON. He makes a statement about telling Hawke all of this stuff about himself. At this point you have only THREE options: diplomatic (blue) - taken by Anders as a sign of interest; humor (purple) - effectively neutral, allowing the conversation to proceed without reference to romance; or shut him down (red) - total rejection, ending the conversation.

The second point involves your moral response to his actions concerning Justice. Here you get FOUR options: both the flirt (heart) AND diplomatic (blue) lead to further romantic dialog, both the humor (purple) AND aggressive (red) lead to mage/templar issues.

There is one final chance at rejection if you picked the diplomatic option above. Anders remarks that he feels like he knows you, can talk to you about anything, etc. He then asks you if this makes you uncomfortable. You have two basic options here: Yes (rejection), No (flirt), It's... Unexpected (flirt). There is NO "I'll just be nice" option. You either flirt or reject here, that's it.

Here is where the third point branches off for male and female Hawkes. If you flirted in the Justice morality dialog he will go right into the romantic lines for each gender.

For the ladies he remarks that this would be a bad relationship, that he would hurt you, etc; there is NO OPTION for rejection.

For the guys he talks about Karl and there are investigative options where he will elaborate about the relationship, as well as the fact that he has been with men, which you can ask about. Here are TWO options for either rejection or continuation of the romance: if you asked him about Karl and his history with men, he will come right out and ask you if this bothers you, to which you can tell him that it does not or that you're glad you found out (in a flirty way), or you can say that it does for the rejection; if you did not investigate and heard only the cursory information about Karl you can either continue to be nice or flirty, or go for the rejection "Too much information!"

The actual response from Hawke when you pick the "Too much information!" choice is very harsh which belies the rather playful tone of the paraphrase. I think this is one reason so many players were upset by this particular paraphrase. Moving on... the rivalry points here are perfectly understandable. Anders has just finished telling what he thinks (from the conversation up until this point) is a friendly/understanding person, about Karl -- who you just saw die in Anders's arms, let's not forget -- who then turns around and makes an a-holey comment.


As far as I know -- I have never romanced Merrill, so I'm ignorant about her -- Anders is unique in how his romance is handled through positive feedback, rather than relying strictly on the flirt icons. As a counter example, you can go through the entire game without Fenris ever batting an eye at you and just remain friends with him.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 24 novembre 2012 - 10:53 .

[berelinde]

It always irritated me that my Hawkes could not teach Fenris to read because it was limited to friendship (as opposed to rivalry) or to romance. I prefer the rivalry path with Fenris because while my Hawkes are anti-slavery, they tend to be very pro-mage, and I like the idea of them trying to help him overcome the hatred that is poisoning him. This doesn't mean that they do not like Fenris or that they want him to remain ignorant... although now that I think about it, what they want is kind of irrelevant. They can want to teach Fenris to read, but if Fenris is too stubborn to learn, it may be irritating to a well-meaning would-be tutor, but it is certainly his prerogative. He is the way he is.

What a lot of people mean when they talk about this, though, is that they don't want the LIs they don't want to hit on them at all. Ten points is *nothing.* In Origins, where you did not even have the big golden heart icons to tell you when you were flirting, telling Alistair that you weren't interested would result in anywhere from -17 approval to -99 approval! How's that for the pain of rejection!

[nightscrawl]

berelinde wrote...

It always irritated me that my Hawkes could not teach Fenris to read because it was limited to friendship (as opposed to rivalry) or to romance.

I only did a rival Fenris one time, and I was very disappointed by this.

Ten points is *nothing.* In Origins, where you did not even have the big golden heart icons to tell you when you were flirting, telling Alistair that you weren't interested would result in anywhere from -17 approval to -99 approval! How's that for the pain of rejection!

Lol... so true!

[siriusstardodger]

[quote]
[/quote][quote]     Also, there is the player camp that would prefer to not see bars at all, just like real life where you have to actually interact with a person and receive feedback during interaction in the form of words, gestures, and facial expression.[/quote]

Hehe I'm actually one of these people [/quote]

I second that. It would be much more natural and allow for more challenge and ambiguity when interacting with others.

[esper]

[quote]siriusstardodger wrote...

[quote]
[/quote][quote]     Also, there is the player camp that would prefer to not see bars at all, just like real life where you have to actually interact with a person and receive feedback during interaction in the form of words, gestures, and facial expression.[/quote]

Hehe I'm actually one of these people [/quote]

I second that. It would be much more natural and allow for more challenge and ambiguity when interacting with others.

[/quote]

I am both for and against this:

For because: Number not realistic or even good to show emotion/loaylty.

Against: Because then it has a huge risk of developing into a 'guess the only right choice or they become disloyal forever.' I don't not like that I had to open a romance guide to play through Baldurs Gate 2, because one wrong or missed flag could screw it over without warning. In real life you get second changes. And it also hamper roleplay because it becomes only one right way through.

So I guess that part of me wants a hidden number system. Where perhaps the bar still exist, but we can't see it so we don't get to get our knockers in a twist if someone gives us -10 for a rejection, but only -5 for something that should be more important. But some would argue that the mere existance of the bar means we as player should have the information.

I guess it boils down to the the dreaded toggle.

[Sir George Parr]

It was on one of those rare occasions i would try and play it as beardy Hawke. That the "To much information" line caught me out as i took it as a joke. But the way Hawke actually delivers the line is very different. So i was not expecting the huge hit in approval that comes on the back of it.That was the only time the dialogue wheel in DA2 caused me any problems. Think i had more problems with Origins, but it has being 2 years since i last played.
A third way with Anders would have helped avoid any problems with him.
The use of body language and expressions is something thats still in its infancy. iirc from LA Noire its exaggerated to a point so you can pick up on it. So at times it didn't feel natural, but it has being a while since i've touched that and my memory is not what it was.

[Renmiri1]

RainbowPuppy wrote...

Ser Bard wrote...

Never had that problem with DA2 but DAO was terrible for ninja romances. Leliana in particular, you think your having a girly chat about shoes, hair and her ex and suddenly she's accusing you of cheating on her with Zevran.

Poor Leliana. Her dialogue was really bugged. Though I think her ninjamance can be easily avoided, so long as you tell her that she is a good friend during the hair conversation and never bring up Marjolaine after her personal quest is done.

Easier stilll : Don't talk to Leliana 

PS: I just knew this was about Anders! Look, people flirt with you even if you never gave any sign of romance, just tell him to buzz off and he gets the message.

I think this is one of the places where me as female have no trouble with letting him down gently and don't think twice about it, since as a female I have had to do it since I was able to talk  While young men / teens playing the game still think any rejection, no matter how gentle will destroy them so they feel bad about rejecting Anders.

People, he lives! Reject him, he doesn't go listen to Screamo while cutting himself. He is 25-30 not 15! 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 19 janvier 2013 - 09:44 .

[CARL_DF90]

 @ Allan Schumacher
Thanks a lot for the answers, insight, and just the generally good conversations here on this thread and elsewhere on the forums. It is greatly appreciated! 

[Kulyok]

Judging by the number of "I DIDN'T like it when this person flirted with me", it's simply more practical to have extra triggers in the options: start male romances; start female romances. Or, better yet, something like this:
- shut romance and flirting with Isabela
- open romance and flirting with Anders
- shut romance and flirting with Merrill
- open romance and flirting with Orsino
- delete Meredith.

[CuriousArtemis]

I wish I could trigger a "Don't flirt with me" button when I go out sometime.

[Knight of Dane]

On the other hand I have never been ninjamanced on any playthroughs where i didn't romance leliana because I actually read the dialogue choices before choosing one. >