105 réponses à ce sujet

[Korusus]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

"Junk" is a name that has an advantage of "this item can safely be sold because it's principle purpose is simply to be sold."

Although I can agree that that may not be the best way of doing things. There's been discussions over whether or not we should just give the copper equivalents straight up, but it starts to make less sense with creatures and frankly I get the impression that some would be disappointed if the game didn't contain inventory that existed for little other reason than to be sold. The idea of looting creatures and bringing back the haul is fun for them.

Terminology could be improved, however.

Why would you ever need items whose "sole purpose is simply to be sold."  Isn't this a byproduct of the lack of interesting potential loot as a result of stripping companion customization out of the game? 

In Baldur's Gate, stuff that was meant to be sold (like diamonds or amethysts) had intrinsic value.  It's not the existence of junk or the name, its' the approach.  Yet another example of you guys failing to learn the right lesson from DA2.

There is 0 reason to add junk that has no intrinsic value just so it can be sold.  This is not Skyrim.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Korusus wrote...

There is 0 reason to add junk that has no intrinsic value just so it can be sold.  This is not Skyrim.

Though Skyrim works well because of the weight limit.  Yes, everywhere you go there are tin cups and embalming tools and bottles of wine you don't need, but because there are limits to what you can carry, you just don't collect those tin cups and embalming tools and bottles of wine unless you want them for some specific reason.

Skyrim demonstrates that having useless loot is not, in and of itself, a problem.  The problem lies in encouraging players to collect it.

[Kileyan]

I still like finding loot to sell. I just never figured on tattered pants and scarves. Just give me some candle holders, carved onyx, crystal skulls, gems and so on.

I guess I am saying, make me feel like I found a stash of valuables in a thieves den, some ornate costume armor in a temple, or some pricey relics in an ancient dwarven hold. Make it a little interesting. I'm not talking pages of lore about every item, just make them sort of interesting items you might find in a fantasy world where we find ancient temples, caves and long lost cities. Ya know, less moth eaten linens, and more treasure:)



The loot in DA2 felt like the dev's wanted to do away with loot, but once pressured into it, they had in their minds to put forth the message "you got what you asked for!" *evil laugh*. We ended up with utter trash to collect, I mean literally trash, and 500 magical necklaces all named the same. It truly felt like, we'll give you treasure, "hahaha, now do you really want to sell loot next game!?"

Modifié par Kileyan, 27 novembre 2012 - 01:44 .

[nightscrawl]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

You may be strong enough to hold sixteen swords... but do you really have room for it in a backpack that is also small enough to not result in any hinderance in combat? I think not.

Bag of holding!

[Kidd]

Realmzmaster wrote...

I can see something like the Black Euporium where quest items that are sold end up. The PC can then go there, but intead of buying the item a quest must be performed. There would have to be a limit or the quests would have to get increasingly difficult otherwise the system could be abused. Or you have to give up a powerful item to get the quest item back.

ME3 did this. Whenever you missed a quest item, it would end up at the Spectre terminal. It ended up being a non-issue in ME3 since ME3's economy floods you with credits, but I think the idea itself still has merit even if its implementation in ME3 wasn't satisfactory. We've already concluded the DA games tend to not shower the protagonist with as much coin, so it would probably work fine in DA3.

[RedWulfi]

What I wanna know is why dragons and darkspawn are carrying gold on them xD

[abnocte]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

"Junk" is a name that has an advantage of "this item can safely be sold because it's principle purpose is simply to be sold."

Shouldn't be the player the one deciding what items s/he feels safe selling?

If you don't want players selling plot items then create a PlotItem tab.
EVERYTHING else can be safely sold:
- Normal items can be found anywhere often enough.
- Unique items can be bougth back if the player decides that it is going to be useful at some point.

Although I can agree that that may not be the best way of doing things. There's been discussions over whether or not we should just give the copper equivalents straight up, but it starts to make less sense with creatures and frankly I get the impression that some would be disappointed if the game didn't contain inventory that existed for little other reason than to be sold. The idea of looting creatures and bringing back the haul is fun for them.

Terminology could be improved, however.

I can live with animals leaving potions or other things as loot, but I personally think animals should leave no loot at all unless is sellable body parts ( skin, bone, etc. whatever that could be used to brew potions or turned into powder )

That aside, I always thought that Bioware games suffer from excessive amounts of loot: ending a game with 9999999 credits its bizarre. I felt DAO followed a better approach but in DA2 things went for the worse, what was the point of all that loot if I could only equip Hawke?
In PS:T I couldn't equip my companions just like in DA2 but at least tha game didn't remind me of it every time I killed a random enemy.

So please, less loot and no Junk tab.

Modifié par abnocte, 27 novembre 2012 - 01:47 .

[Helena Tylena]

Kileyan wrote...

I still like finding loot to sell. I just never figured on tattered pants and scarves. Just give me some candle holders, carved onyx, crystal skulls, gems and so on.

I guess I am saying, make me feel like I found a stash of valuables in a thieves den, some ornate costume armor in a temple, or some pricey relics in an ancient dwarven hold. Make it a little interesting. I'm not talking pages of lore about every item, just make them sort of interesting items you might find in a fantasy world where we find ancient temples, caves and long lost cities. Ya know, less moth eaten linens, and more treasure:)



The loot in DA2 felt like the dev's wanted to do away with loot, but once pressured into it, they had in their minds to put forth the message "you got what you asked for!" *evil laugh*. We ended up with utter trash to collect, I mean literally trash, and 500 magical necklaces all named the same. It truly felt like, we'll give you treasure, "hahaha, now do you really want to sell loot next game!?"

Agreed. I don't mind stuff that's just there to sell. As long as it has character. DA2's generic trash tab with only trash-can icons had no character.

[Dragoonlordz]

I have said it before will say it again... All item loot regardless of junk or not needs purpose or descriptions whether funny or realistic/lore based or story. I have no problem having a junk option but I would like to be the one who decides what is junk or not personally. If has no purpose other than to sell then find a better way, reward players with income derived from helping people, FF8 had a salary system which I enjoyed and worked well enough as alternative for generating income and one assumes working for the chantry or templars, any organisation or group that the inquisition is part of would have some form of salary structure that is possible to implement if so chose.

If you don't want generic loot in your games then don't put any rather than do it very badly, if want purchasing of items there are many ways to achieve making money besides looting. But if you wish to put loot in the game atleast please put in the effort to make it enjoyable for the player. I happen to like looting, I like finding things and reading about what it is or seeing what it is I found. They are like mini christmas presents (sometimes covered in blood one would assume based on where got it like from the belly of a dragon), but all the same loot is a good gameplay feature provided put in the effort to make it so.

Like I said on the Project Eternity forums, loot also has to make sense. Where you find it and where came from, a bat shouldn't drop a sword out it's anus for example but it is logical to expect a large creature that eats people to have some trinket that might have been on the person it ate. A home you loot should have loot that is valuable to the owner, sentimental and to get that sentiment across to the player a good description when loot it is ideal. One of the elements I bought Skyrim for and Diablo 3 is because loot matters to me, to drop most of the games loot into a "junk" catagory without description or making it interesting in some way or purpose outside of selling on top of poor quality description and design just makes me very disappointed in that gameplay feature in your games if and when you do it that way.

All games are made up of elements and some are good and some are bad but it is not until all elements are good that the game will be considered amazing to me. Each element and feature goes into pros and cons list when I buy games or form an opinion on those games so while I understand how it is that some of each of your games or anyones games have some elements that put the time and effort into making great, some elements that you just didn't put that effort or time into and remains poor quality. Exploration, loot, dialogue, customisation, combat and many more elements all go into whether I like a game or buy a game and when one fails to impress, where one is done poorly and lacks effort then the rest have to make up for it in quality.

I was disappointed by lack of race selection already and same goes with news your sticking with not only VO but also paraphrasing (personally dislike paraphrasing yet do not hate VO for protaganist even though prefer silent). You seemed to be saying exploration is improved but that is yet to be seen if true, improving it from DA2 is not a big improvement because was so bad in that core game that wouldn't take much to improve in first place. Though granted was 'beginning' to get better in the DLC outside core game. Customisation you seem to be saying will be better and from what saying might be right but won't know until you actually show what your doing compared to lip service stating what you would like to do as opposed to what you actually finally do. Loot is another potential feature or area you could improve to make up for my former disappointment and so on...

Though I doubt most of these features will be great due to your time restriction and investment financially, I still hold out hope that as many as possible do get the much needed time and attention to make as many elements and features great but if you keep the junk tab and most items pointless and without effort to make much better then this is one element that will add to my disappointment and therefore go in the cons list as opposed to the pros when both buying and forming an opinion for purpose of feedback.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 27 novembre 2012 - 06:31 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Why would you ever need items whose "sole purpose is simply to be sold."

Because a lot of people like that.

Shouldn't be the player the one deciding what items s/he feels safe selling

The current system still does that.  I guess I just used the wrong word since that's what you latched onto.  The "junk" items are more "random loot that exist to be sold."  Because as seen even in this thread, people enjoy that.  We can do it better (not make it torn trousers or whatever), or we could not even do it at all.

The player is more than welcome to decide if he/she feels safe selling the weapons or rings or consumables, with or without a junk tab.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 27 novembre 2012 - 06:28 .

[abnocte]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Why would you ever need items whose "sole purpose is simply to be sold."

Because a lot of people like that.

And because is the easiest way for lvl1 adventurers to get some coin.

Something that after returning from the expedition and regaining Hawke's family state should have become quite pointless.

Shouldn't be the player the one deciding what items s/he feels safe selling

The current system still does that.  I guess I just used the wrong word since that's what you latched onto.  The "junk" items are more "random loot that exist to be sold."  Because as seen even in this thread, people enjoy that.  We can do it better (not make it torn trousers or whatever), or we could not even do it at all.

The player is more than welcome to decide if he/she feels safe selling the weapons or rings or consumables, with or without a junk tab.

I'm not saying that I'm unable to decide which items are safe to sell, I was trying to say that I don't need the game to spell it out for me.

And don't take me wrong, I like random loot... but I like it thanks to the descriptions that used to come with it.

I supose that the Junk tab was created so people that don't care about random loot at all wouldn't "waste" their time looking at what they have in their inventories, while keeping the random loot mechanic for those that like it. Too bad that DA2 random loot was so... boring....

I will advocate for less random loot but more interesting, like the Golden pantaloons back in BG!  XD

Also, can I ask if items star-rating is going to be kept for DA:I? I didn't find it useful at all...

Modifié par abnocte, 27 novembre 2012 - 09:30 .

[Bestyj669]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The auto-sorting should be optional (or removed).  I do not want meta-game instruction as to what function a given item has.

Let the player discover whether an item has plot relevance.

Couldn't agree more...

I get it that some people might prefer the "easy way", but I'm also pretty certain a lot of us would appriciate a nice, big "OFF" button.

[bzombo]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Why would you ever need items whose "sole purpose is simply to be sold."

Because a lot of people like that.

Shouldn't be the player the one deciding what items s/he feels safe selling

The current system still does that.  I guess I just used the wrong word since that's what you latched onto.  The "junk" items are more "random loot that exist to be sold."  Because as seen even in this thread, people enjoy that.  We can do it better (not make it torn trousers or whatever), or we could not even do it at all.

The player is more than welcome to decide if he/she feels safe selling the weapons or rings or consumables, with or without a junk tab.

Most junk had very little value, so the whole selling argument is weak. Just make treasure and put it in normal categories: armor, weapons, jewelry, consumables, etc. Junk was just insulting, imo.

Modifié par bzombo, 27 novembre 2012 - 09:33 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

The player is more than welcome to decide if he/she feels safe selling the weapons or rings or consumables, with or without a junk tab.

Yes.  We'd like to do that with all loot, not just the loot you've deemed potentially useful.

I don't object to the Junk tab.  I object to anything being labelled junk automatically.

[Allan Schumacher]

I'm not saying that I'm unable to decide which items are safe to sell, I was trying to say that I don't need the game to spell it out for me.

Because the inventory is placed into categories. It's not a weapon, it's not a ring, it's not armor. If you'd prefer, we could call it "Miscellaneous" or something.

Or we could just have a huge list like KOTOR. That was popular!

[Dave of Canada]

I remember when Marethari gave me the tome, said it was priceless and would serve me well.

I looked for it in the inventory and found it in the junk tab and didn't sell it, hoped it would serve some actual purpose. It never did.

[DragonAgeLegend]

I actually liked the icons in DAO much more then DA2. In DA2 they looked more modern. I liked the 'Dragon Age' look in DAO of the items.

[Fast Jimmy]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I remember when Marethari gave me the tome, said it was priceless and would serve me well.

I looked for it in the inventory and found it in the junk tab and didn't sell it, hoped it would serve some actual purpose. It never did.

I was in the same boat. 

It would be one thing if the book was a skill tome or was even that valuable as a "junk" or sellable item. But for being priceless, it sure wasn't worth a lot of scratch. That was something that, against my better nature, just really ticked me off. 

[Josielyn]

It would be nice to get a closeup view of the loot on screen before you decide to take it. Maybe not all the time, but for the really good stuff do it. Rather, "cherry picking" treasure out of a box you are looking at, rather than just "Take all" (well I guess if you are in a hurry and have plenty of room you can do that). In other words, "oooh, I see a shiny bauble, I am going to grab it!" Rather than "oh goody, a green box that says "Shiny bauble", with a clip art picture of the object. It would feel more like treasure hunting and less like checking out at the cash register. On another note, there were alot of cool looking things I saw on screen that I wished were "swipeable", and it would be hilarious if you could pull off stealing an entire statue from the Chantry or such (and be seen carrying a gigantic bundle out the back door at night). For example, when disposing of bodies in Denerim, it would be fun if you had to physically carry the body without being detected, rather than just a convenient little square in your inventory.

[abnocte]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I'm not saying that I'm unable to decide which items are safe to sell, I was trying to say that I don't need the game to spell it out for me.

Because the inventory is placed into categories. It's not a weapon, it's not a ring, it's not armor. If you'd prefer, we could call it "Miscellaneous" or something.

...
....
.....
pTab->SetName( "Miscellaneous" );
Pretty please with sugar on top?

Allan Schumacher wrote...
Or we could just have a huge list like KOTOR. That was popular!

BG, BG2, NWN didn't have inventory categories either.

My personal opinion is more inclined to blame the amount of items we are able to loot than the ability to sort/categorize that loot.  Yet I see that categories are useful but... "Junk" sounds despective. Poor items, being segregated like that by their own creators!  [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/crying.png[/smilie]

"Junk" items want some love too!

[Kidd]

abnocte wrote...

"Junk" items want some love too!

Junk items for companion and LI in DA3!

[Frankaidenryan]

I think the unique icons for every item you found made otherwise 'junk' items a lot more interesting. Compared to the trash can icon, it made a world of difference. It's probably just a simple time/resources issue, someone has to sit down and come up with a couple hundred unique thumnails and write a blurb about said icon.

Also, I get that for flavor issues, one couldn't loot every random crate in lowtown and find garnets and silver bowls, so one had to come up with slightly more trash like items. Even then, I think actual icons would have worked better for the overall RPG feel than the generic trash can.

So yes, I LOVE looting, the more the better, but it has to be interesting. Exploration needs to be rewarding, yes?

[Wulfram]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Because a lot of people like that.

I would suggest a lot of people dislike it too.  At least one does, anyway.

Modifié par Wulfram, 28 novembre 2012 - 11:47 .

[Todd23]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I'm not saying that I'm unable to decide which items are safe to sell, I was trying to say that I don't need the game to spell it out for me.

Because the inventory is placed into categories. It's not a weapon, it's not a ring, it's not armor. If you'd prefer, we could call it "Miscellaneous" or something.

Or we could just have a huge list like KOTOR. That was popular!

It's not the catagory I have beef with.  It's what goes in it.  Just a bunch of my loot taking up inventory space just to be sold.  3 items who's only purpose is to be sold, I don't have a problem with.  And let us decide what goes in it.  I want to say what gets sold when.

Modifié par Todd23, 28 novembre 2012 - 04:42 .