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[Bayonet Hipshot]

Came across this post by David Gaider : 
http://dgaider.tumbl...ame-development 

This is all nice but shouldn't games, especially M rated games such as Dragon Age have uncomfortable scenarios & situations ?

In games like Dragon Age have you murdering hundreds if not thousands of sentient beings (like bandits, darkspawn, werewolves, sylvans), destroying buildings & lairs,  stealing valuable objects, betraying people,  drinking mind altering potions & alcohol, performing taboo magic using blood & dead bodies , etc 

Yet sexual themes / sexual assault is wrong & offensive somehow. Doesn't make sense to me.

IMO they should have just gone with the original idea, just make it presentable. Examples of gruesome ideas in other RPGs that is presented well is cannibalism in Skyrim, during the Daedric Prince Namira's quest.  

Thoughts & Opinions ? 

Modifié par The Sin, 23 novembre 2012 - 02:38 .

[MisterJB]

Well, I'm inclined to agree with you but we don't really know what the situations really was about.
Ultimately, the DA universe has certainly never pulled punches in presenting a realistic and brutal world. In the first game, we had severe xenophobia leading to a gangrape of women belonging to a powerless minority and in the second game, we had a templar taking advantage of what most templars consider to be an horrible necessity, the rite of Tranquility, to create his own personal harem.
I hope these issue are not hidden in the third game but, since we don't know what the situation presented really was about or how it was changed, I'm certainly not going to say that female writers in writing teams are ruining the DA Universe.

Modifié par MisterJB, 23 novembre 2012 - 02:48 .

[Harle Cerulean]

First, rape isn't 'uncomfortable', it's horrific.

Second, there's a difference between having it when it's actually important - though whether it's ever important or not is incredibly arguable - and when it's gratuitous. If you can't get across that a villain is a bad guy without going "HE RAPES PEOPLE!!" then that's bad writing.

Third, the idea that a mature game should require situations like rape to be present is disgusting. Rape isn't 'mature', it's wrong. Yes, so is killing people. But let me tell you: as a woman, I have a much higher likelihood of being raped than I do of a mage roasting me with a fireball, or someone chopping my head off with a sword. I don't need to be reminded while playing games that plenty of men would happily rape me - I already live with that every damned day in real life, thank you.

Fourth, when rape was not the intention, why the hell should they make it able to be interpreted as rape just because you want to see rape?

Finally, everyone's definition of 'presented well' is going to be different for something as terrible as rape. I have yet to see a presentation of it that I thought was well-done. Women are far more likely to be negatively affected by the presence of rape in the story - why should we have to deal with that because you men think it's ~dark and gritty~?

[Reznore57]

I think the scene from the writer point of view was supposed to be somewhat kinky , but when he reads it to women writers , they didn't feel it was the case.
It turns out it was bordeline rape material , and nothing fun.

Maybe some stuff like "she was asking for it" when nobody's really sure about it.

Anyway I'm not sure , since the scene isn't described.But I think when something is close to rape , but somebody tries to pretend it's ok , it's disturbing.

There's something like that in a song of fire and Ice , one character gets raped by the man she married , but no one cares and the writers went with she love him at the end.
LIke if in this particular setting makes it ok somehow...
The writer is a guy and as a woman , I wouldn't write it like that , there's enough woman getting beaten or raped and end up thinking they "ask for it " or it's their fault or whatever...

But that 's just my point of view.

[Herr Uhl]

The Sin wrote...

IMO they should have just gone with the original idea, just make it presentable

I read his post. That is what they seem to have done. And as it has been pointed out, rape has been in both DA games.

Edit: From the post itself.

So we discussed it, changes were made, and everything was better.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 23 novembre 2012 - 03:04 .

[Sejborg]

Pfft... If they didn't intend it to be some sort of rape, but it came of as such, then changes need to be made.

It's about delivering the correct message.

Say you want to write a racist character, but you somehow fail and the character is just a normal dude, then changes need to be made.

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

Sexual assault is wrong and offensive, however I think (hope) OP is talking about double standards concerning violence vs sex in media.

[fchopin]

Harle Cerulean wrote...
..............................................

What do you think on the city elf story in DAO?

Modifié par fchopin, 23 novembre 2012 - 03:09 .

[Warden661]

This thread could get ugly. Fast.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

First, rape isn't 'uncomfortable', it's horrific.

Second, there's a difference between having it when it's actually important - though whether it's ever important or not is incredibly arguable - and when it's gratuitous. If you can't get across that a villain is a bad guy without going "HE RAPES PEOPLE!!" then that's bad writing.

Third, the idea that a mature game should require situations like rape to be present is disgusting. Rape isn't 'mature', it's wrong. Yes, so is killing people. But let me tell you: as a woman, I have a much higher likelihood of being raped than I do of a mage roasting me with a fireball, or someone chopping my head off with a sword. I don't need to be reminded while playing games that plenty of men would happily rape me - I already live with that every damned day in real life, thank you.

Fourth, when rape was not the intention, why the hell should they make it able to be interpreted as rape just because you want to see rape?

Finally, everyone's definition of 'presented well' is going to be different for something as terrible as rape. I have yet to see a presentation of it that I thought was well-done. Women are far more likely to be negatively affected by the presence of rape in the story - why should we have to deal with that because you men think it's ~dark and gritty~?

Urm..City Elf in DAO... 

[Harle Cerulean]

fchopin wrote...

Harle Cerulean wrote...

What do you think on the city elf story in DAO?

I don't remember saying that.  

I think there were very problematic elements to it, and very setting-appropriate elements to it.  I am severely unfond of the the way rape is always portrayed as something only cackling villains do, as though it's uncommon and you can spot a rapist from a mile off by their Evil Goatee.  I am also not fond of Women In Peril, Men To the Rescue, or of the implication that only women can be victims of rape!  The thing I liked most about it is that, as a female city elf, you mostly get to rescue yourself - once Soris brings you a sword, anyways.
All in all, it could have been handled worse - but it could have been handled better, and I think there could have been much better ways to point out the oppression of City Elves than a noble deciding to rape the women of the wedding party.

Modifié par Harle Cerulean, 23 novembre 2012 - 03:13 .

[Harle Cerulean]

The Sin wrote...

Harle Cerulean wrote...

First, rape isn't 'uncomfortable', it's horrific.

Second, there's a difference between having it when it's actually important - though whether it's ever important or not is incredibly arguable - and when it's gratuitous. If you can't get across that a villain is a bad guy without going "HE RAPES PEOPLE!!" then that's bad writing.

Third, the idea that a mature game should require situations like rape to be present is disgusting. Rape isn't 'mature', it's wrong. Yes, so is killing people. But let me tell you: as a woman, I have a much higher likelihood of being raped than I do of a mage roasting me with a fireball, or someone chopping my head off with a sword. I don't need to be reminded while playing games that plenty of men would happily rape me - I already live with that every damned day in real life, thank you.

Fourth, when rape was not the intention, why the hell should they make it able to be interpreted as rape just because you want to see rape?

Finally, everyone's definition of 'presented well' is going to be different for something as terrible as rape. I have yet to see a presentation of it that I thought was well-done. Women are far more likely to be negatively affected by the presence of rape in the story - why should we have to deal with that because you men think it's ~dark and gritty~?

Urm..City Elf in DAO... 

Your point?  It exists.  That doesn't mean it's a counterexample to my points.

[Parmida]

Why don't you add a raped man for a change? It could be more interesting, no?
Do men really enjoy it when women get raped? if so, I'm going to be sick.

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

BoBear wrote...

This thread could get ugly. Fast.

It'll probably get locked by mods almost as fast. Thankfully.

[MisterJB]

Harle Cerulean wrote...
Finally, everyone's definition of 'presented well' is going to be different for something as terrible as rape. I have yet to see a presentation of it that I thought was well-done. Women are far more likely to be negatively affected by the presence of rape in the story - why should we have to deal with that because you men think it's ~dark and gritty~?

In defense of the male gender, you shouldn't assume that any rape we wish to see presented in the story needs to be male on female.
I do think that the sexual threat the female elves are under in the City Elf Origin helps make that a stronger origin altough this could be achieved in different ways such as an attempted purge on the Alienage. However, in contrast, we have David Gaider confirming that Danarius used Fenris as a sexual slave which was male on male rape.
Rape IS horrible and by itself, certainly no indication of a mature story. However, there are ocasions where it makes sense to include rape such as in the City Elf Origin and any situation where a character has another under its complete control for an extended period of time and these are mature themes.
I think it's less mature to try to avoid these issues and, ultimately, I don't think the DA team ever presented rape in a gratuitous manner.

Modifié par MisterJB, 23 novembre 2012 - 03:17 .

[syllogi]

Ahahaha. When I saw it the other day on tumblr, I expanded all the notes on that post, thinking that at least one person would be "that guy" who would blindly defend the idea of an inadvertently rapey plot point. When nobody did that, I thought "you've been spending too much time on the BSN, normal people don't do that."

We can't judge from the outside, but if it wasn't intended to be perceived as rape, but was seen as such, then that was a mistake, and it's good that it was caught and changed early. There's nothing wrong with grimdark and edgy content, even if it's sexual situations, but if the writer wasn't interested in taking it in that direction, then making it "presentable" wouldn't have been enough. The scenario probably would have to change considerably, and that's not what they wanted to do.

[Giltspur]

I don't see anything wrong with putting rape into a game--so long as it is treated seriously and appropriately.  However, if a person  writes a scene that isn't intended to be interpreted as rape but could be interpeted as rape, then it makes sense to change it.  

I think that's what's going on here.  As I interpret Gaider's post, his post isn't saying that female perspective causes them to not ever put rape into games.  He's (I think) saying female perspective helped a male writer see how his scene could have been interpreted as rape even if that's not what the male writer intended.

Modifié par Giltspur, 23 novembre 2012 - 03:25 .

[MisterJB]

Reznore57 wrote...
There's something like that in a song of fire and Ice , one character gets raped by the man she married , but no one cares and the writers went with she love him at the end.
LIke if in this particular setting makes it ok somehow...
The writer is a guy and as a woman , I wouldn't write it like that , there's enough woman getting beaten or raped and end up thinking they "ask for it " or it's their fault or whatever...

What, who? Honestly, I've read the books several times and I can't recall a marital rape where the victim fell in love with the agressor.
Daenerys, maybe? Altough I wouldn't call that rape.

Modifié par MisterJB, 23 novembre 2012 - 03:20 .

[fchopin]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

fchopin wrote...

Harle Cerulean wrote...

What do you think on the city elf story in DAO?

I don't remember saying that.  

I think there were very problematic elements to it, and very setting-appropriate elements to it.  I am severely unfond of the the way rape is always portrayed as something only cackling villains do, as though it's uncommon and you can spot a rapist from a mile off by their Evil Goatee.  I am also not fond of Women In Peril, Men To the Rescue, or of the implication that only women can be victims of rape!  The thing I liked most about it is that, as a female city elf, you mostly get to rescue yourself - once Soris brings you a sword, anyways.
All in all, it could have been handled worse - but it could have been handled better, and I think there could have been much better ways to point out the oppression of City Elves than a noble deciding to rape the women of the wedding party.

Thank you for answering.

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

Parmida wrote...

Why don't you add a raped man for a change? It could be more interesting, no?
Do men really enjoy it when women get raped? if so, I'm going to be sick.

Sadly, I think some writers of both genders use it as quick, cheap way to make their characters (almost always female) and the material they are putting out dark and edgy.

In their mind a woman getting raped equals damaged woman on a path of fury and vengeance, which somehow is cool and badass. Man gets raped you get Marcellus Wallace


or the protagonist of THIS...
http://ca.movieposte...in/68/MPW-34082
both of which make menfolk deeply uncomfortable. We don't like having the shoe on the other foot.

At any rate, I can do without rape in Dragon Age, City Elf Origin aside. Also, screw anyone who gets off on rape; that's gross and sick. It's not sexy and women don't secretly want it...

Modifié par The Teryn of Whatever, 23 novembre 2012 - 03:24 .

[MisterJB]

Parmida wrote...

Why don't you add a raped man for a change? It could be more interesting, no?
Do men really enjoy it when women get raped? if so, I'm going to be sick.

David Gaider suggested Fenris was raped by Danarius. And Alain was definitively raped by Karras.

[Warden661]

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

BoBear wrote...

This thread could get ugly. Fast.

It'll probably get locked by mods almost as fast. Thankfully.

I'm just going to sit back and see how this all turns out.

[Archereon]

You know, I've always found it extremely hypocritical that media in our society is perfectly comfortable showing murder, often quite brutal murder, but almost never rape. I won't bother arguing which is the more severe crime because that's more liable to cause a flame war than anything, but they're both among the most heinous crimes a person can commit.

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

MisterJB wrote...

Parmida wrote...

Why don't you add a raped man for a change? It could be more interesting, no?
Do men really enjoy it when women get raped? if so, I'm going to be sick.

David Gaider suggested Fenris was raped by Danarius. And Alain was definitively raped by Karras.

The Fenris getting raped suggestion made by Mr. Gaider should have been in the game or not at all. It makes it seem like they excluded it for fear of creating a squick factor with that character. I could be wrong but I don't remember it being mentioned in the game.