95 réponses à ce sujet

[Bfler]

The Witcher games include all the things you mentioned here, rape of women, murder, cannibalism etc., but the world of Witcher is much more harsh and realistic, than the world of DA. It wouldn't really fit.

Modifié par Bfler, 23 novembre 2012 - 03:38 .

[Parmida]

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Parmida wrote...

Why don't you add a raped man for a change? It could be more interesting, no?
Do men really enjoy it when women get raped? if so, I'm going to be sick.

David Gaider suggested Fenris was raped by Danarius. And Alain was definitively raped by Karras.

The Fenris getting raped suggestion made by Mr. Gaider should have been in the game or not at all. It makes it seem like they excluded it for fear of creating a squick factor with that character. I could be wrong but I don't remember it being mentioned in the game.

I always romance Fenris and talk to him every moment I can, it's not mentioned and I didn't know it until I came to the forums.

And who is Alain ? I can't remember.

Modifié par Parmida, 23 novembre 2012 - 03:38 .

[MisterJB]

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...
The Fenris getting raped suggestion made by Mr. Gaider should have been in the game or not at all. It makes it seem like they excluded it for fear of creating a squick factor with that character. I could be wrong but I don't remember it being mentioned in the game.

No, I don't think it was either and I do think you are right. I don't know why it wasn't included but I'm hesitant to say it was because Bioware was afraid it would drive people away from Fenris (there's something really revolting about that) since in the previous game we had Leliana, another rape victim(altough that is more obvious on a DLC, not the game itself), as a companion and LI.
Unless this is some kind of double standard, I'm not aware of.

[Chipaway111]

BoBear wrote...

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

BoBear wrote...

This thread could get ugly. Fast.

It'll probably get locked by mods almost as fast. Thankfully.

I'm just going to sit back and see how this all turns out.

I brought the popcorn.

[Herr Uhl]

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

In their mind a woman getting raped equals damaged woman on a path of fury and vengeance, which somehow is cool and badass.

There is plenty of rape that doesn't lead to a path of fury or vengeance in movies. There is a movie genre based around the scenario you're speaking of, but it is far from all of the times it is brought up.

It is kind of like saying that racism strikes harder against indians than black people because there's blacksploitation.

[Fast Jimmy]

Chipaway111 wrote...

BoBear wrote...

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

BoBear wrote...

This thread could get ugly. Fast.

It'll probably get locked by mods almost as fast. Thankfully.

I'm just going to sit back and see how this all turns out.

I brought the popcorn.

<grabs a handful and plops down for the show>

[Jonata]

Dealing with sexual assault should always be handled very carefully. There are a lot of gamers out there that in the name of "realism and grittiness" would want to see almost hurtful scenes with rape, murder and violence, but IMO, that's garbage.

Violent visuals can always, ALWAYS be avoided without turning a story into something "for kids", and powerful stories can have both rape and murder without actually shoving rape and murder in the player's face.

Saying that a game like The Witcher show those things because "the developers had the balls to do it" or because it's a "much more serious" game it's not only wrong, it's borderline dangerous. Bad taste is always bad taste, no matter how dark and gritty you want your story to be.

So I'm very thankful that we have a lead writer that knows what should be in a game and what definitely shouldn't, no matter how many gritty-lovers have bought The Witcher because of explicit sex scenes and rape.

[Rixatrix]

BTW, very intelligent post, Jonata.  I agree.

--

IMHO, this just goes to show that when everyone looks at something, they don't always see the same thing.

OP looked at this story and saw a team afraid to put rape in an M-rated game.

I looked at this story and saw a team fixing a plot point so it wouldn't be interpreted wrong.

This isn't a case of female writers saying "no rape or else," but a case of what was believed to be a non-rape plot point by male writers actually being perceived as a rape by female writers, and the team as a whole augmenting the scene to be interpreted as intended.

While the subject matter is certainly a hot-button issue for all sorts of people - this certainly just seems like business as usual, a team making sure their story is received as it was intended.

Modifié par BlueMoonSeraphim, 23 novembre 2012 - 04:15 .

[Parmida]

Jonata wrote...

Dealing with sexual assault should always be handled very carefully. There are a lot of gamers out there that in the name of "realism and grittiness" would want to see almost hurtful scenes with rape, murder and violence, but IMO, that's garbage.

Violent visuals can always, ALWAYS be avoided without turning a story into something "for kids", and powerful stories can have both rape and murder without actually shoving rape and murder in the player's face.

Saying that a game like The Witcher show those things because "the developers had the balls to do it" or because it's a "much more serious" game it's not only wrong, it's borderline dangerous. Bad taste is always bad taste, no matter how dark and gritty you want your story to be.

So I'm very thankful that we have a lead writer that knows what should be in a game and what definitely shouldn't, no matter how many gritty-lovers have bought The Witcher because of explicit sex scenes and rape.

The Witcher 2 was awful in my opinion, I installed it 2 times and removed it instantly after 30-60 minutes of playing out of curiosity about the story and after losing my interest in the story, never desired to play it again. I don't find it interesting at all, yet I see many people saying it's the best game that they've played.

[ScarMK]

How ignorant. People bring popcorn, but nothing to drink! *Passes beers to those watching*

[Bfler]

Parmida wrote...

 ...yet I see many people saying it's the best game that they've played.

In my opinion, Witcher 1 is much better than 2. 

[Parmida]

Bfler wrote...

Parmida wrote...

 ...yet I see many people saying it's the best game that they've played.

In my opinion, Witcher 1 is much better than 2. 

I have lost enough interest for all of the Witcher games to never try one again.
Also I've never played Witcher 1 and don't care.
I think it's just not my cup of tea.

[Warden661]

ScarMK wrote...

How ignorant. People bring popcorn, but nothing to drink! *Passes beers to those watching*

Sweet!! I was getting thirsty. *cracks open a cold one*

[garrusfan1]

If they are saying they not gonna add rape in it I am fine with that I personally hate even the mention of it the DAO city elf story was as far as they could go without making me get sick. Now if they are saying no sexual type comments then no that is stupid

[LadyMalstroem]

The Sin wrote...

Came across this post by David Gaider : 
http://dgaider.tumbl...ame-development 

This is all nice but shouldn't games, especially M rated games such as Dragon Age have uncomfortable scenarios & situations ?

In games like Dragon Age have you murdering hundreds if not thousands of sentient beings (like bandits, darkspawn, werewolves, sylvans), destroying buildings & lairs,  stealing valuable objects, betraying people,  drinking mind altering potions & alcohol, performing taboo magic using blood & dead bodies , etc 

Yet sexual themes / sexual assault is wrong & offensive somehow. Doesn't make sense to me.

IMO they should have just gone with the original idea, just make it presentable. Examples of gruesome ideas in other RPGs that is presented well is cannibalism in Skyrim, during the Daedric Prince Namira's quest.  

Thoughts & Opinions ? 

Well, first of all, sexual assault is wrong and offensive. 

Rape themes are not at all comparable to cannibalism because cannibalism is not something that actually happens to around 1 in 6 women in real life (in the US). And to even bring up blood magic and potions and ****ing stealing as somehow equally "dark" as rape is really damn daft. Rape is something we're very aware could happen to us, or someone we care about, or maybe it already has happened. No one lives with the real fear that someone's going to use their body in a magical ritual.

There are no themes that M-rated games are required to bring up. Having rape happen in your game doesn't make it more mature or insightful by default. And in my opinion, if you're going to use rape as a plot point you better have a damn good reason. Not saying it can't be done, but if you're going to do it, then yeah, I'd say having a female perspective present during the process is very important. And when the writer never intended the situation to be interpreted as rape, I'm so glad they had a female presence to make him aware of it.

[Bfler]

Parmida wrote...

Bfler wrote...

Parmida wrote...

 ...yet I see many people saying it's the best game that they've played.

In my opinion, Witcher 1 is much better than 2. 

I have lost enough interest for all of the Witcher games to never try one again.
Also I've never played Witcher 1 and don't care.
I think it's just not my cup of tea.

There is not only rape and battle and such things in Witcher 1. There are also many good (tragic) stories/moments like f.e. : witcher.wikia.com/wiki/The_Heat_of_the_Day
or when Gerald receives the silversword Aerondight (Excalibur) from the lady of the lake (one of my favorite scenes in a video game)
You should give it a try. And you don't have to sleep with the woman, if you don't like the Sex-card things.

Modifié par Bfler, 23 novembre 2012 - 04:41 .

[Lennard Testarossa]

Jonata wrote...
So I'm very thankful that we have a lead writer that knows what should be in a game and what definitely shouldn't, no matter how many gritty-lovers have bought The Witcher because of explicit sex scenes and rape.

"Should"? And who exactly defines what should or should not be in a game? There's always someone who finds what you do to be offensive or tasteless. Many people, especially older people, would find the violence in the Dragon Age games to be tasteless. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be in there.

Also, did it ever occur to you that your perception of "should" might be somehow related to your culture? The Witcher is made in Poland, not in the US. People in Eastern Europe have a very differnet perspective on sexuality.

[garrusfan1]

I just read it and I gotta say that is fine I thought it was something else. No I think it is good that they are catering to a wider audience (by gender not by FPS type people or action people not RPG people) I am a white male and I think it should be geared towards everyone not just me so good on you bioware

[Fredward]

As usual the BSN has a way of blowing things grossly out of proportion.

Oh well. I hope that popcorn is liberally seasoned.

[slimgrin]

Jonata wrote...

So I'm very thankful that we have a lead writer that knows what should be in a game and what definitely shouldn't.

And who's the arbiter of that may I ask?  

Modifié par slimgrin, 23 novembre 2012 - 04:47 .

[David Gaider]

BlueMoonSeraphim wrote...
OP looked at this story and saw a team afraid to put rape in an M-rated game.

I looked at this story and saw a team fixing a plot point so it wouldn't be interpreted wrong.

This isn't a case of female writers saying "no rape or else," but a case of what was believed to be a non-rape plot point by male writers actually being perceived as a rape by female writers, and the team as a whole augmenting the scene to be interpreted as intended.

While the subject matter is certainly a hot-button issue for all sorts of people - this certainly just seems like business as usual, a team making sure their story is received as it was intended.

This is correct.

To the point-- the situation was not rape. There was no non-consensual sex. I'm not going to go into details, as that requires plot details-- suffice to say it was a sexual situation which could be interpreted as a form of rape (or violation, which might be a better phrase)... but that interpretation wasn't a difficult one to make and, far more importantly, as BlueMoonSeraphim said, that wasn't the writer's intention.

We're fully capable of including rape in a story if we feel it's required. That's not something I think is often required, however. Regardless of whether or not "it happens", it can be a bit too easy to go there and treat it as casual subject material when it's not. Not being overly sensitive to the sensibilities of one's audience does not require that we be completely insensitive, either.

[PsychoBlonde]

Hmm. You know, it occurs to me that one thing games generally don't do is present the consequences of rape/sexual assault in a society. They may show that it happens, but not the results, such as women (and younger men) being afraid of adult men, huge societal restrictions on where women (and young men) go and what company they can go in, that sort of thing.

Something to think about--the act may be presented but not a lot of the emotional charge, and if you ask me, exploring the emotions is far more mature than whether or not you have the act present or implied in the game.

There are opportunities to explore the emotional/ethical/social aspects in Dragon Age. There's a slave-oriented culture (Tevinter), another where there probably isn't really a *concept* of consensual vs. non-consensual sex and where getting emotional over it would be considered a sign of mental defect (the Qunari), another culture where people can advance in rank via sex (the dwarves), one with predominately arranged marriages (elves), and then of course all the bizarre possibilities the other human cultures come up with. And some of this has also been touched on and explored, which is good. It's not a dominant theme, but it is there. Nor does it need to become dominant--this is Dragon Age: Inquisition not Dragon Age: The Kinsey Report

[Harle Cerulean]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Hmm. You know, it occurs to me that one thing games generally don't do is present the consequences of rape/sexual assault in a society. They may show that it happens, but not the results, such as women (and younger men) being afraid of adult men, huge societal restrictions on where women (and young men) go and what company they can go in, that sort of thing.

Something to think about--the act may be presented but not a lot of the emotional charge, and if you ask me, exploring the emotions is far more mature than whether or not you have the act present or implied in the game.

You do have a very good point, but at the same time, I can tell you that I would have zero interest in playing a game where it was constantly pointed out to my character that she's a woman, she shouldn't be wandering around at night/alone/with strange men/etc etc etc etc.  It's bad enough in DA:O being told at character creation that women are equal to men in Thedas, and then getting continual evidence that no, actually, they aren't.