95 réponses à ce sujet

[Merilsell]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

First, rape isn't 'uncomfortable', it's horrific.

Second, there's a difference between having it when it's actually important - though whether it's ever important or not is incredibly arguable - and when it's gratuitous. If you can't get across that a villain is a bad guy without going "HE RAPES PEOPLE!!" then that's bad writing.

Third, the idea that a mature game should require situations like rape to be present is disgusting. Rape isn't 'mature', it's wrong. Yes, so is killing people. But let me tell you: as a woman, I have a much higher likelihood of being raped than I do of a mage roasting me with a fireball, or someone chopping my head off with a sword. I don't need to be reminded while playing games that plenty of men would happily rape me - I already live with that every damned day in real life, thank you.

Fourth, when rape was not the intention, why the hell should they make it able to be interpreted as rape just because you want to see rape?

Finally, everyone's definition of 'presented well' is going to be different for something as terrible as rape. I have yet to see a presentation of it that I thought was well-done. Women are far more likely to be negatively affected by the presence of rape in the story - why should we have to deal with that because you men think it's ~dark and gritty~?

So much this. All the awards for this post.  

[Persephone]

Writing is key here. Depictions of such scenarios vary and if you
cannot write them well and in a way that doesn’t make it look like it’s
just there for shock value/people who get off on seeing a woman “put in
her place” etc. better don’t touch it.

CDPR for one failed with the whole Ves scenario in that regard IMHO.
Some even accuse Ves of sleeping with Henselt willingly/luring him in
etc. And if that is the conclusion even just a bit of your audience
arrives at, then you have either failed at writing, exploited something
utterly repulsive or should rethink your target audience.
Just my 2 cents on it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...
CDPR for one failed with the whole Ves scenario in that regard IMHO.
Some even accuse Ves of sleeping with Henselt willingly/luring him in
etc. And if that is the conclusion even just a bit of your audience
arrives at, then you have either failed at writing, exploited something
utterly repulsive or should rethink your target audience.
Just my 2 cents on it.

Well I responded on tumblr, but will do so here as well.
I never read anyone saying that Ves "lured Henselt in", as in seduced him? Nothing even remotely points to that possibility and the cutscene clearly shows otherwise.

The scenario is clear, Henselt had all her comrades at his mercy and forced her to have sex with him with the promise that he would spare them. He lied and spared only her. The scenario is pretty clear and quite tragic for a character like Ves. She was raped, as it was sex under duress.

The problem is us not being able to talk to Ves after that as she disapears. But the scenario itself is well executed and pretty clear.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 novembre 2012 - 05:41 .

[Quicksilver26]

how many of you people that are asking for rape to be put have been raped yourselves how many of you know any one who has been. rape is not a joke and should do not be but in for titillation. villotel blood death and kill are desalination as sad and fed up as it might be. know one cares all that much about a bit of blood death and mayhem. as a rape victim myself i would much rather not have it in there. i won't boycott it if it is but if it is in there there should be a damn good reason and not just in because it's dark and nity grity. oh and by the way that seance in game of trons was down right rape just because she didn't fight didn't me that she wanted him. she didn't want him there for it was rape to see it as anything else you would have to be blind or just really stupid. i hope this thread get look now rather then later. anyone who whats to see rape in a game just for the sack of it being in there is sick and needs to seek help.

[slimgrin]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Hmm. You know, it occurs to me that one thing games generally don't do is present the consequences of rape/sexual assault in a society. They may show that it happens, but not the results, such as women (and younger men) being afraid of adult men, huge societal restrictions on where women (and young men) go and what company they can go in, that sort of thing.

Something to think about--the act may be presented but not a lot of the emotional charge, and if you ask me, exploring the emotions is far more mature than whether or not you have the act present or implied in the game.

There are opportunities to explore the emotional/ethical/social aspects in Dragon Age. There's a slave-oriented culture (Tevinter), another where there probably isn't really a *concept* of consensual vs. non-consensual sex and where getting emotional over it would be considered a sign of mental defect (the Qunari), another culture where people can advance in rank via sex (the dwarves), one with predominately arranged marriages (elves), and then of course all the bizarre possibilities the other human cultures come up with. And some of this has also been touched on and explored, which is good. It's not a dominant theme, but it is there. Nor does it need to become dominant--this is Dragon Age: Inquisition not Dragon Age: The Kinsey Report

Exactly. But most devs just don't go there, especially the emotional aspects of adult content: rape, violence, or whatever. And if they do go there, half the time they just skim the surface of said topic because 'games are still for kids' So I do think its important developers push the envelope not only in topics covered, but how seriously that subject matter is taken. Browsing this thread shows some gamers aren't willing to see that happen as developer 'X' doesn't do mature content the way they think it should be done - that it needs to be approached with a certain degree of taste or moderation. Like we'll ever agree on that. Instead of placing limits on the medium, proclaiming what games should or should not do ( isn't the media doing this already?), people can accept the artistic intent of what is being done and if they don't like it, move on.

Modifié par slimgrin, 23 novembre 2012 - 05:58 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

Bfler wrote...

The Witcher games include all the things you mentioned here, rape of women, murder, cannibalism etc., but the world of Witcher is much more harsh and realistic, than the world of DA. It wouldn't really fit.

"Realistic" is not a good way of putting it.

"Pandering to the mindsets of immature young men who only have one perspective" is.  The Witcher may contain such content, but it is hardly ever that sensitive to it.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 23 novembre 2012 - 06:04 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

RinjiRenee wrote...
 The Witcher may contain such content, but it is hardly ever that sensitive to it.

Did you play any of the games?

[upsettingshorts]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Did you play any of the games?

That's always the response.  

"How could you think so, short of not having played it?!?"

Yet this very thread underlines the flaw in that instinct.

[slimgrin]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Bfler wrote...

The Witcher games include all the things you mentioned here, rape of women, murder, cannibalism etc., but the world of Witcher is much more harsh and realistic, than the world of DA. It wouldn't really fit.

"Realistic" is not a good way of putting it.

"Pandering to the mindsets of immature young men who only have one perspective" is.  The Witcher may contain such content, but it is hardly ever that sensitive to it.

Anymore, seeing this response is just cute. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Did you play any of the games?

That's always the response.  

"How could you think so, short of not having played it?!?"

Yet this very thread underlines the flaw in that instinct.

Because it's a valid response.

If you have not played a game or looked closely to a part of it that you wish to argue against, then your opinion is simply uninformed, and thus irrelevent.

I could present my arguments as to how The Witcher 2 did not present any of these terrible actions in a banal or insensitive way as it's being accused of. But evidently there's a group of people who already decided they will hate everything about it, so the effort will be lost on them.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 novembre 2012 - 06:12 .

[Parmida]

Quicksilver26 wrote...

how many of you people that are asking for rape to be put have been raped yourselves how many of you know any one who has been. rape is not a joke and should do not be but in for titillation. villotel blood death and kill are desalination as sad and fed up as it might be. know one cares all that much about a bit of blood death and mayhem. as a rape victim myself i would much rather not have it in there. i won't boycott it if it is but if it is in there there should be a damn good reason and not just in because it's dark and nity grity. oh and by the way that seance in game of trons was down right rape just because she didn't fight didn't me that she wanted him. she didn't want him there for it was rape to see it as anything else you would have to be blind or just really stupid. i hope this thread get look now rather then later. anyone who whats to see rape in a game just for the sack of it being in there is sick and needs to seek help.

I'm so sorry about that, you say the truth and I agree.

[Bfler]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Bfler wrote...

The Witcher games include all the things you mentioned here, rape of women, murder, cannibalism etc., but the world of Witcher is much more harsh and realistic, than the world of DA. It wouldn't really fit.

"Realistic" is not a good way of putting it.

"Pandering to the mindsets of immature young men who only have one perspective" is.

Read a chronicle about the Thirty Years' War in Europe. All the mentioned things happened there in their worst forms.  It is very similar to the things we see in Witcher. So how is this not realistic, but immature?

[upsettingshorts]

Bfler wrote...

Read a chronicle about the Thirty Years' War in Europe. All the mentioned things happened there in their worst forms.  It is very similar to the things we see in Witcher. So how is this not realistic, but immature?

I find it incredibly amusing that responses like this are appearing in a thread motivated by this post.  

Keep unintentionally making his point, it's fantastic.  

[Dabrikishaw]

Some very good insight into script development here.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Bfler wrote...

Read a chronicle about the Thirty Years' War in Europe. All the mentioned things happened there in their worst forms.  It is very similar to the things we see in Witcher. So how is this not realistic, but immature?

Okay, where's the part about the super strong beau hunk with white hair and golden eyes who is immune to both STDs and sterile and has insatiable lust that women somehow find unspeakably attractive?  Realism as its finest I'm sure, I'm just having a hard time finding it apparently.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I could present my arguments as to how The Witcher 2 did not present any
of these terrible actions in a banal or insensitive way as it's being
accused of. But evidently there's a group of people who already decided
they will hate everything about it, so the effort will be lost on them.

Yes, you trying to convince me that the Witcher series is nothing but a male power trip fantasy equivalent to let's say, Twilight for men, is completely lost on me.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 23 novembre 2012 - 06:31 .

[slimgrin]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Bfler wrote...

Read a chronicle about the Thirty Years' War in Europe. All the mentioned things happened there in their worst forms.  It is very similar to the things we see in Witcher. So how is this not realistic, but immature?

I find it incredibly amusing that responses like this are appearing in a thread motivated by this post.  

Keep unintentionally making his point, it's fantastic.  

All that seems to confirm is the hazard of designing by committee.

[JimboGee]

I agree that a subject like rape has to be written properly not just " Oh and by the way he rapes people" added in. While the subject of rape can be an uncomfortable one, it shouldn't be avoided just to avoid upsetting people. There was a scene in DA2 which upset me but I didn't go on the forums and complain because, to me, that's good writing. Getting you emotionally invested in a game is what counts. Bioware should not apologise for that.

If they are going to add it in the viewer must be left with no doubt in his/her mind that it actually happened. Much like the scenes in " The Shawshank Redemption" Where you don't actually see anything, but Morgan Freeman's narration is not open to interpretation.

[Bfler]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Bfler wrote...

Read a chronicle about the Thirty Years' War in Europe. All the mentioned things happened there in their worst forms.  It is very similar to the things we see in Witcher. So how is this not realistic, but immature?

I find it incredibly amusing that responses like this are appearing in a thread motivated by this post.  

Keep unintentionally making his point, it's fantastic.  

 
Where is the link between female game developers and my lines?

Modifié par Bfler, 23 novembre 2012 - 06:28 .

[MisterJB]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Bfler wrote...

Read a chronicle about the Thirty Years' War in Europe. All the mentioned things happened there in their worst forms.  It is very similar to the things we see in Witcher. So how is this not realistic, but immature?

I find it incredibly amusing that responses like this are appearing in a thread motivated by this post.  

Keep unintentionally making his point, it's fantastic.  

I'm having a hard time connecting real life attrocities commited during a real life war and female writers. Mind to elinghten me?

[upsettingshorts]

slimgrin wrote...

All that seems to confirm is the hazard of designing by committee.

Wait, you're serious.

Bfler wrote...

Where is the link between female game developers and my lines?

There are people in this thread who are downright explicitly stating they do not want to see this stuff in games, for extremely valid, sometimes deeply personal reasons.

You're ignoring them, and citing a historical conflict from four centuries ago as enough to trump the validity of their perspective.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 23 novembre 2012 - 06:30 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Bfler wrote...

Read a chronicle about the Thirty Years' War in Europe. All the mentioned things happened there in their worst forms.  It is very similar to the things we see in Witcher. So how is this not realistic, but immature?

Okay, where's the part about the slowly-aging beau hunk with white hair and golden eyes who is immune to both STDs and sterile and has insatiable lust that women somehow find unspeakably attractive?  Realism as its finest I'm sure, I'm just having a hard time finding it apparently.

That's in TW1 and I will 100% agree with you it's crap and ridiculous. And I hate it with a passion.

But they moved leagues beyond that now.  Yes, they still make mistakes common in the entire industry (including Bioware). Their marketing pisses me off and you can ask slimgrin that I've been extremily critical of both things in TW forums.  But in the game and story itself, they moved way beyond what TW1 had.

There is still room for improvement, and I will keep being very vocal about this, and I do think a problem in CDPR is the lack of female writers so I agree with Gaider in principle.  But it is not as you, who evidently know very little about it, describe.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 novembre 2012 - 06:32 .

[MisterJB]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
There are people in this thread who are downright explicitly stating they do not want to see this stuff in games, for extremely valid, sometimes deeply personal reasons.

You're ignoring them, and citing a historical conflict from four centuries ago as enough to trump the validity of their perspective.

The fact that there are people who don't wish to deal with this kind of content does not make said content unrealistic or immature as you claimed.

[Scarlet Rabbi]

Quicksilver26 wrote...

how many of you people that are asking for rape to be put have been raped yourselves how many of you know any one who has been. rape is not a joke and should do not be but in for titillation. villotel blood death and kill are desalination as sad and fed up as it might be. know one cares all that much about a bit of blood death and mayhem. as a rape victim myself i would much rather not have it in there. i won't boycott it if it is but if it is in there there should be a damn good reason and not just in because it's dark and nity grity. oh and by the way that seance in game of trons was down right rape just because she didn't fight didn't me that she wanted him. she didn't want him there for it was rape to see it as anything else you would have to be blind or just really stupid. i hope this thread get look now rather then later. anyone who whats to see rape in a game just for the sack of it being in there is sick and needs to seek help.

So anybody who doesn't have your perpectives and experiences is not only wrong, but disgusting? Really, really rational on your part.

Art has no boundaries, and someone's past experiences (tragic or not) doesn't grant them a pass to label what they don't like as acceptable or unacceptable. Someone could easily call you a person who lacks any rational outlook on the situation just as freely as you are insulting anyone who doesn't fall in line with your view, but that would serve no purpose.

No one person's tragic or life altering expereince should ever limit another's imagination, or, in other words, art. As harsh as that sounds, that's the way it has to be. The truth isn't always aligned with what makes one happy. TBH, I'm still in awe that you even brought up what you brought up; why do it? To give your post more legitimacy? Something like that is certaintly not a subject for a Bioware thread and I'm guessing you did it to makes those who disagree with you hesitant to say so, for fear of getting attacked or even banned. Or you did it so you could freely call those who disagree with you 'sick' and imply they need mental help, without the slightest fear of consequence from the Mods, because, after all, you're the victim here.

There are certaintly things I find disgusting too, and one of them is using a personal tragedy like a shield, from safely behind which you hurl out insults and lable people despicible things if they dare to disagree with you, feeling untouchable the whole time because no one would dare attack a victim. You entire post and it's points could've been made without insulting others who hold a different viewpoint.

[upsettingshorts]

MisterJB wrote...

The fact that there are people who don't wish to deal with this kind of content does not make said content unrealistic or immature as you claimed.

Strawman.

This is a thread inspired by an anecdote shared by David Gaider in which he explains the value of having different perspectives when writing.

You are, quite literally, ignoring or dismissing perspectives in the very way he was demonstrating has damaging consequences.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 23 novembre 2012 - 06:35 .

[Annie_Dear]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

First, rape isn't 'uncomfortable', it's horrific.

Second, there's a difference between having it when it's actually important - though whether it's ever important or not is incredibly arguable - and when it's gratuitous. If you can't get across that a villain is a bad guy without going "HE RAPES PEOPLE!!" then that's bad writing.

Third, the idea that a mature game should require situations like rape to be present is disgusting. Rape isn't 'mature', it's wrong. Yes, so is killing people. But let me tell you: as a woman, I have a much higher likelihood of being raped than I do of a mage roasting me with a fireball, or someone chopping my head off with a sword. I don't need to be reminded while playing games that plenty of men would happily rape me - I already live with that every damned day in real life, thank you.

Fourth, when rape was not the intention, why the hell should they make it able to be interpreted as rape just because you want to see rape?

Finally, everyone's definition of 'presented well' is going to be different for something as terrible as rape. I have yet to see a presentation of it that I thought was well-done. Women are far more likely to be negatively affected by the presence of rape in the story - why should we have to deal with that because you men think it's ~dark and gritty~?

Have you seen Atonement? A rape does happen, however I think it's handeled very well and in a non-graphic way (we never see it happen), the characters act like people in the real world would and most importantl: it's a part of the main plot. It's not thrown in to shock you, it's there to move the plot forward.

Other than that, I agree with your post.