95 réponses à ce sujet

[Mykel54]

I don´t have any problem with implied rape, as long as the act in itself is not showed in the game. It adds to the mature theme of the game by showing inmoral actions that do happen on our world, much like trafficking of organs (blood mages anyone?), slavery, etc. Consider these points:

-The devs never depicts rape as something that is acceptable to do, it is always an evil act. Therefore the game does condemn this action, much like it always condem other practices like slavery. The protagonist never gets to support slavery, at most he can put a blind eye.

- Rape is not exclusive to women, anyone can be raped, even a kid. So stop taking this a some special offense towards the female gender. And rape is terrible no matter who is the victim, or do you dare suggest than a man being raped is ok?
http://rt.com/news/h...into-sex-slave/

-These games depict other inmoral acts like killing, yet everybody is so used to seeing death in the media that they don´t care. It is fine to kill innocents in a video game and see their blood and body parts spill all over? The hypocrisy here is how for some people there are certain inmoral actions which must not be in the game, but others are fine, because it doesn´t bother them.

All evil actions should bother you, even if you are used to killing people in games, you know it is evil and you wouldn´t go and do it in real life. The same applies to slavery or rape, they can be in the game as long as they are presented as inmoral, and not as a good thing.

[slimgrin]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

There are people in this thread who are downright explicitly stating they do not want to see this stuff in games, for extremely valid, sometimes deeply personal reasons.

Cry me f*ckin' a river. Seriously. A developer that tries to take this in account is misguided to the point of watering down everything they do.

[MisterJB]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Strawman.

This is a thread inspired by an anecdote by David Gaider in which he explains the value of having different perspectives when writing.

You are, quite literally, ignoring or dismissing perspectives in the very way he was demonstrating has damaging consequences.

It's not a strawman. You're dancing around the issue.
Not having female writers in The Witcher's team might make its content too focused on certain subjects which means not everyone enjoys playing it. That, however, does not mean the sbujects presented in the game;wars of sucession, xenophobia, rape, etc; are unrealistic and immature exactly because it has happened multiple times in human history.

[upsettingshorts]

Keep digging.

[Xewaka]

slimgrin wrote...
Cry me f*ckin' a river. Seriously. A developer that tries to take this in account is misguided to the point of watering down everything they do.

Bioware has already treated the issue of sexual assault in the City Elf Origin story, so that already shows it's not a topic they're unwilling to tackle, as long as it improves the storytelling in a meaningful way. The point Gaider was putting across when sharing the anecdote was how a lack of perspective could end with a scene delivering a different meaning than intended, and how a different perspective from another(s) team member(s) allowed them to spot an interpretation they didn't intend to have in that scene: This allowed them to rewrite it so that it best serves the story point they were trying to bring across.
It's not that they won't tackle a controversial theme, it's that they don't want to trivialize it without even realizing that they're doing it.

Modifié par Xewaka, 23 novembre 2012 - 06:46 .

[Herr Uhl]

Mykel54 wrote...

And rape is terrible no matter who is the victim, or do you dare suggest than a man being raped is ok?
http://rt.com/news/h...into-sex-slave/

Has anyone disputed that here?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Mykel54 wrote...
-These games depict other inmoral acts like killing, yet everybody is so used to seeing death in the media that they don´t care. It is fine to kill innocents in a video game and see their blood and body parts spill all over? The hypocrisy here is how for some people there are certain inmoral actions which must not be in the game, but others are fine, because it doesn´t bother them.

To an extent yes, but that's a systemic problem that devs can't really deal with on their own.
The context in whish they operate is that violence has not only become banal in the media, but has become almost necessary for something to be considered fun. It's sad, I wish there were more non-violent games, but that's the reality we have to deal with now.

Personally, I am torn in that subject.
Obviously I utterly reject any scenario that makes rape banal or even fun (yea rape games exist). The question is, should we not have rape at all, or should we make sure that it's well written and presented?

In any case, I agree with Gaider's argument. The presence of other perspectives is a good thing. They can either help make sure the scenario is well-written and presented with sensitivity and has a purpose, whether plot wise or setting wise. Or, if it really has no purpose or place and is just insensitive, then they would shoot it down.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 novembre 2012 - 06:48 .

[syllogi]

Annie_Dear wrote...

Harle Cerulean wrote...

First, rape isn't 'uncomfortable', it's horrific.

Second, there's a difference between having it when it's actually important - though whether it's ever important or not is incredibly arguable - and when it's gratuitous. If you can't get across that a villain is a bad guy without going "HE RAPES PEOPLE!!" then that's bad writing.

Third, the idea that a mature game should require situations like rape to be present is disgusting. Rape isn't 'mature', it's wrong. Yes, so is killing people. But let me tell you: as a woman, I have a much higher likelihood of being raped than I do of a mage roasting me with a fireball, or someone chopping my head off with a sword. I don't need to be reminded while playing games that plenty of men would happily rape me - I already live with that every damned day in real life, thank you.

Fourth, when rape was not the intention, why the hell should they make it able to be interpreted as rape just because you want to see rape?

Finally, everyone's definition of 'presented well' is going to be different for something as terrible as rape. I have yet to see a presentation of it that I thought was well-done. Women are far more likely to be negatively affected by the presence of rape in the story - why should we have to deal with that because you men think it's ~dark and gritty~?

Have you seen Atonement? A rape does happen, however I think it's handeled very well and in a non-graphic way (we never see it happen), the characters act like people in the real world would and most importantl: it's a part of the main plot. It's not thrown in to shock you, it's there to move the plot forward.

Other than that, I agree with your post.

And that's a well made film, but how likely is it that any given current video game is going to treat the topic in a respectful and realistic way?

Especially in the example given in Mr. Gaider's blog post, where the suggestion of sexual violation wasn't even intended.  A lot of the debate in this thread doesn't apply at all to that situation.

[Scarlet Rabbi]

slimgrin wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

There are people in this thread who are downright explicitly stating they do not want to see this stuff in games, for extremely valid, sometimes deeply personal reasons.

Cry me f*ckin' a river. Seriously. A developer that tries to take this in account is misguided to the point of watering down everything they do.

Extremely harsh but very true.

One's personal tragedies should not and cannot be used to limit another's art. It may sound heartless but that is irrelevant to the point being made. Artists cannot be shackled by others, or even their own, tragedies.

[Rinji the Bearded]

syllogi wrote...

And that's a well made film, but how likely is it that any given current video game is going to treat the topic in a respectful and realistic way?

Especially in the example given in Mr. Gaider's blog post, where the suggestion of sexual violation wasn't even intended.  A lot of the debate in this thread doesn't apply at all to that situation.

Exactly.  The intent wasn't even there, but they lacked perspective to see the problem.  Yet many in this thread are suggesting that the added perspective isn't necessary, and that it would dilute their ~artistry~.  Which... is basically proving Mr. Gaider's point in the first post.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Scarlet Rabbi wrote...

Extremely harsh but very true.

One's personal tragedies should not and cannot be used to limit another's art. It may sound heartless but that is irrelevant to the point being made. Artists cannot be shackled by others, or even their own, tragedies.

Did you even read Mr. Gaider's post?

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 23 novembre 2012 - 06:51 .

[Xewaka]

Scarlet Rabbi wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
There are people in this thread who are downright explicitly stating they do not want to see this stuff in games, for extremely valid, sometimes deeply personal reasons.

Cry me f*ckin' a river. Seriously. A developer that tries to take this in account is misguided to the point of watering down everything they do.

Extremely harsh but very true.
One's personal tragedies should not and cannot be used to limit another's art. It may sound heartless but that is irrelevant to the point being made. Artists cannot be shackled by others, or even their own, tragedies.

Let's use an art simile to explain what Gaider is actually putting forth with his post: "I wanted to paint a beautiful flower. I was sketching, and then a fellow artist told me it looked more like a penis, and since I couldn't unsee the penis, I redrew the thorns so that they wouldn't look like blood-filled vessels".

[KnightofPhoenix]

Scarlet Rabbi wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

There are people in this thread who are downright explicitly stating they do not want to see this stuff in games, for extremely valid, sometimes deeply personal reasons.

Cry me f*ckin' a river. Seriously. A developer that tries to take this in account is misguided to the point of watering down everything they do.

Extremely harsh but very true.

One's personal tragedies should not and cannot be used to limit another's art. It may sound heartless but that is irrelevant to the point being made. Artists cannot be shackled by others, or even their own, tragedies.

Yes, but I think we all agree they should be sensitive towards it and not present it as a banal thing.
Art, for me, is not random thigns put together to make something look edgy. Art needs to have meaning.

Obviously no game can entirely capture the immense trauma and psychological damage that rape causes unless it's focused on that. But it still ought to show how grave it is and not to use it lightly. And for that, I do believe different perspectives can help.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 novembre 2012 - 06:51 .

[Scarlet Rabbi]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Scarlet Rabbi wrote...

Extremely harsh but very true.

One's personal tragedies should not and cannot be used to limit another's art. It may sound heartless but that is irrelevant to the point being made. Artists cannot be shackled by others, or even their own, tragedies.

Did you even read Mr. Gaider's post?

Just responding to the post quoted in mine, nothing more.

But yes, I did read it.

[Sylvf]

slimgrin wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

There are people in this thread who are downright explicitly stating they do not want to see this stuff in games, for extremely valid, sometimes deeply personal reasons.

Cry me f*ckin' a river. Seriously. A developer that tries to take this in account is misguided to the point of watering down everything they do.

I'm going to ask you, or anyone on this forum, not to to disparage people who have concerns about portrayals of any content related to sexual assult in games. You're free to discuss the topic but blithley dismissing people, especially those who've suffered sexual assault, is simply unacceptable.

I will say this: the idea of content being "watered down" because we're careful with it is nonsense. A good team can make a horrific scenario out of almost anything. Knowing what boundaries you should and should not cross makes for a stronger scene, not a lesser one.

Modifié par Sylvf, 23 novembre 2012 - 06:52 .

[Scarlet Rabbi]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Scarlet Rabbi wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

There are people in this thread who are downright explicitly stating they do not want to see this stuff in games, for extremely valid, sometimes deeply personal reasons.

Cry me f*ckin' a river. Seriously. A developer that tries to take this in account is misguided to the point of watering down everything they do.

Extremely harsh but very true.

One's personal tragedies should not and cannot be used to limit another's art. It may sound heartless but that is irrelevant to the point being made. Artists cannot be shackled by others, or even their own, tragedies.

Yes, but I think we all agree they should be sensitive towards it and not present it as a banal thing.

No, I agree to no such thing. Art is/should not shackled by tastes or taboos.

[Parmida]

Xewaka wrote...

Scarlet Rabbi wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
There are people in this thread who are downright explicitly stating they do not want to see this stuff in games, for extremely valid, sometimes deeply personal reasons.

Cry me f*ckin' a river. Seriously. A developer that tries to take this in account is misguided to the point of watering down everything they do.

Extremely harsh but very true.
One's personal tragedies should not and cannot be used to limit another's art. It may sound heartless but that is irrelevant to the point being made. Artists cannot be shackled by others, or even their own, tragedies.

Let's use an art simile to explain what Gaider is actually putting forth with his post: "I wanted to paint a beautiful flower. I was sketching, and then a fellow artist told me it looked more like a penis, and since I couldn't unsee the penis, I redrew the thorns so that they wouldn't look like blood-filled vessels".

YOU KILLED ME.........

[Persephone]

Scarlet Rabbi wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Scarlet Rabbi wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

There are people in this thread who are downright explicitly stating they do not want to see this stuff in games, for extremely valid, sometimes deeply personal reasons.

Cry me f*ckin' a river. Seriously. A developer that tries to take this in account is misguided to the point of watering down everything they do.

Extremely harsh but very true.

One's personal tragedies should not and cannot be used to limit another's art. It may sound heartless but that is irrelevant to the point being made. Artists cannot be shackled by others, or even their own, tragedies.

Yes, but I think we all agree they should be sensitive towards it and not present it as a banal thing.

No, I agree to no such thing. Art is/should not shackled by tastes or taboos.

So by those standards, rape simulators, which sadly exist, are acceptable because of "artistic integrity" being valid all of a sudden?

I can't even.........

[Annie_Dear]

syllogi wrote...


And that's a well made film, but how likely is it that any given current video game is going to treat the topic in a respectful and realistic way?

Especially in the example given in Mr. Gaider's blog post, where the suggestion of sexual violation wasn't even intended.  A lot of the debate in this thread doesn't apply at all to that situation.

I'm sure if Bioware wanted to have this in their game, they would handle the topic quite well.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Scarlet Rabbi wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes, but I think we all agree they should be sensitive towards it and not present it as a banal thing.

No, I agree to no such thing. Art is/should not shackled by tastes or taboos.

But this is not tastes and taboos we are talking about, it's human decency.

Considering the staggering amount of people who suffered from rape, if I just put rape in my game for its own sake for no real reason, portraying it as banal or maybe even promote it as a good and fun thing, then what I am doing is not art. It's simply insensitive and apathetic. For me, insensitive art is an oxymoron. 

That and in addition to my belief that media, art included, should have a certain sense of social responsability. They don't need to explicitly present or promote a social agenda, but they should still be respectful to its audience and considerate to the suffering that many have been inflcited by.

[Allan Schumacher]

I am closing this thread.

Those of you that find our "design by committee" unacceptable and evidence that we compromise our work to be safe are more than welcome to spend their time on a different forum of a developer they feel is less compromising.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 23 novembre 2012 - 07:02 .