136 réponses à ce sujet

[frag971]

[DISCLAIMER: this is a faily long post, please don't assume things and coment without reading, this is probably not about what you think]
There are topics that are still considered by many as taboo. Now i'm not sure if i'm breaking any forum rules here but i wanted to provide a mature conversation on serious things. Things like:

-Racism, speciecism and any forms of extreme discrimination. These issues we actually tackled in Dragon Age and i would love to see a continuation, perhaps an evolution on the state of the world since then. Maybe even have an "I have a dream!" moment in the game to adress discrimination in the world of DA3.

-Rape, particularly female, such as what happens to woman in war. It is a terrible thing to happen but one must realise this is a fairly common occurance in many wars throughout our history. Exploring this venue to tell a story about the human condition. Not everything should be about "heroic" or "happy love". I'm not saying there should be an actual rape scene in the game (God forbid), but definetly as a plot point - such as having it happening to a party member and how the player character interacts with him/her before and after it happened would be very interesting.

-Torture, both physical, mental and spiritual. Actually show someone break under torture. This was exemplified in Mass Effect series with Saren and Cerberus experimenting on people. A new dimension to it in DA3 could be explored in the mental and spiritual sides, such as having the player's body posessed and witness terrible things happening and everyone else thinks it was the player character that did it.

-Male castration, usually as a form of punishment, torture or simply sadism. Similar to the situation above. This issue is somehow adressed in Game of Thrones and a similar topic could exist in DA3.

-Indoctrination - this idea came out from the Mass Effect series and having this implemented in the game as a major storyline plotline/subplot. Imagine close to the end of the game you find out you were being manipulated (mindfooked) throughout the game and having the player believe all their actions were actually the righteous ones. Like only at the second act or close to the end you have "Teh Serious Talk" and you, both the player and character, realise you've been "the evil guy" all along. Plot twist!

-Female and sexual minorities point of view - lets be honest here: most games are targetted at heterosexual males. I would love to see a balance of viewpoints throughout the game. No need to make lots of explosions, breasts, skin-tight jumpsuits and stuff like that. Make a couple decent, attractive male characters, a gay man, etc... And please don't shove it in ("i am gay, i am also politically correct"), do it natural. Gays are normal people like everyone else, i realy liked how Cortez on Mass Effect 3 turned out. Give the girls something to squeel about (cute adorable guy/hot manly guy), put game mechanics interesting to girls, tho i can't speculate here, im a guy .

Basicly what i'm saying is that Bioware has it's momentum and reputation on moving video games as a medium forward. To be serious about it, to be honest about it. Do it because it is important to tell a story with it, it is important to say something about the human condition, to deliver a message on what the world is and perhaps teach is how to make it better, show that there can be a better future, better than what it is. By tackling dificult issues in a movie, in a book, in a song or in a game we can better outselves as human beings.

Games right now are "below" other forms of medium. Nowadays cinema, music and books are considered mature forms of entertainment and education while games are still stigmatised as "for kids" or being stereotyped as the "world of warcraft nerd", "call of duty teenage killer" or "dance studios on Wii". I understand such content will make headlines, like "lesbian sex" did back in Mass Effect. But that was a good thing. It raises awareness, it raises understanding. I'm not saying we should do these things just to generate buzz or headlines but we must stand tall and grow as a medium.

Modifié par frag971, 24 novembre 2012 - 05:24 .

[Aggie Punbot]

This will not end well.

ETA: Also, if you don't mind my saying, the word is 'taboo,' not 'tabu,' and you accidentally misspelled 'difficult' in the thread title.

Modifié par TS2Aggie, 24 novembre 2012 - 05:19 .

[frag971]

TS2Aggie wrote...

ETA: Also, if you don't mind my saying, the word is 'taboo,' not 'tabu.'

*slaps forehead* Thanks

[mesmerizedish]

Your opinions are wrong and bad.

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 24 novembre 2012 - 05:21 .

[Dhiro]

frag971 wrote...

-Female and sexual minorities point of view - lets be honest here: most games are targetted at heterosexual males. I would love to see a balance of viewpoints throughout the game. No need to make lots of explosions, breasts, skin-tight jumpsuits and stuff like that. Make a couple decent, attractive male characters, a normal gay man, etc... And please don't shove it in ("i am gay, i am also politically correct"), do it natural. Gays are normal people like everyone else, i realy liked how Cortez on Mass Effect 3 turned out. Give the girls something to squeel about (cute adorable guy/hot manly guy), put game mechanics interesting to girls, tho i can't speculate here, im a guy .

Well, one look at Fenris' thread or Anders' thread or Cullen's thread actually speaks very well about how the female fans like the male love interests.

And what exactly is a "normal gay man"? I'd hate to think I'm doing something wrong.

I'm sorry, but I feel... how can I put this? I think that issues like rape should be handled very, very carefully. Not as a way to make gamers feel like they're playing something mature.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Both DA:O and DA2 touch upon basically all of these things already, including dozens if not hundreds of other complex topics including corruption of authority, mental illness, social justice, slavery, etc etc etc everything you can name.

So.. what are you asking for?

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 24 novembre 2012 - 05:27 .

[frag971]

Dhiro wrote...

And what exactly is a "normal gay man"? I'd hate to think I'm doing something wrong.

Yes that was badly written, sorry. I fixed it.

I would also like to point out these are my personal opinio and probably will not the same as everyone else's.

Pseudocognition wrote...

Both DA:O and DA2 touch upon basically all of these things already, including dozens if not hundreds of other complex topics.

So.. what are you asking for?

Simply to also include them in DA3 in a better way. To me they felt very compartmentalized and didn't integrate into the rest of the game.

Modifié par frag971, 24 novembre 2012 - 05:27 .

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

frag971 wrote...
To me they felt very compartmentalized and didn't integrate into the rest of the game.

I have no idea what you mean by that.

[upsettingshorts]

Few topics described in the original post are difficult or complicated, and most have been or continue to be a part of the Dragon Age universe.

Furthermore, a serious advocacy of difficult topics would trend closer to subjects like - oh, I don't know - analytic or existential philosophy than a laundry list of war crimes.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 24 novembre 2012 - 05:36 .

[Allan Schumacher]

I hesitate to usually jump into threads like this, but in the efforts to keep it from completely devolving, there is one thing that immediately jumped out at me.

Rape, particularly female

Emphasis mine.

Why "particularly female?" Rape towarsd men or women is horrific. I personally think it'd be much more interesting, if we were to touch on a subject like this and try to explore it in a mature and unique way, would be to explore it from a perspective of a male that is the victim. In fact, a not insignificant part of me would like to see this avenue only explored towards a male PC. Mostly just as a personal experiment to see how much people truly want to explore these types of dark themes, and what it's like to be a victim and to be powerless to do anything about it (i.e. the opportunity for revenge just never happens). The cynic in me, however, suspects that this would not be as well received.

It's also important to note that Thedas isn't reality. Hoping for difficult topics to happen, with an emphasis on them happening to commonly victimized groups in real life isn't necessary.


Regarding difficult topics in general (and I assume by difficult, you mean topics that make people feel uncomfortable), I do think the Dragon Age games do try to incorporate stuff like this. I do like the ideas of ethical dilemmas, where choices are presented as being less than ideal with justifications being a part of the decision making process. Like the idea of exposing a powerful mage for the crimes he has done, but knowing that in doing so the law will crack down on all mages and there will likely be innocent victims as a result.

If we can make the player stop and think, I think we've done well. But the idea of putting in these uncomfortable topics is something that must be done with care, and definitely not included just for the sake of including it.

[frag971]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

If we can make the player stop and think, I think we've done well. But the idea of putting in these uncomfortable topics is something that must be done with care, and definitely not included just for the sake of including it.

Agree, but what i ment in terms of rape is not about the act itself but about the experience of interacting with such a character and of those interactions being affected/different by the event. I do now agree that the male one would be more interesting to explore since it wasn't done as much elsewere. These things do have to be tackled with great care indeed.

[Maria Caliban]

frag971 wrote...

[DISCLAIMER: this is a faily long post, please don't assume things and coment without reading, this is probably not about what you think]

This was exactly what I thought it was.

-Racism, speciecism and any forms of extreme discrimination. These issues we actually tackled in Dragon Age and i would love to see a continuation, perhaps an evolution on the state of the world since then. Maybe even have an "I have a dream!" moment in the game to adress discrimination in the world of DA3.

The fact that you actually used the word ‘speciecism’ and suggest that it’s equal to racism is exactly why we can’t have difficult conversations.

White people with pointy ears are not appropriate stand-ins for blacks, Asians, Native Americans, or any other racial or ethnic minority. The fact that fantasy is more interested in white people with pointy ears and really short white people than in actual racial minorities speaks very poorly of fantasy writers and the readership.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 24 novembre 2012 - 06:13 .

[Dhiro]

frag971 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

If we can make the player stop and think, I think we've done well. But the idea of putting in these uncomfortable topics is something that must be done with care, and definitely not included just for the sake of including it.

Agree, but what i ment in terms of rape is not about the act itself but about the experience of interacting with such a character and of those interactions being affected/different by the event. I do now agree that the male one would be more interesting to explore since it wasn't done as much elsewere. These things do have to be tackled with great care indeed.

I am deeply disturbed both by this post and the opening post, because you make it sound like you want a rape survivor character so you can analyze her and feel the experience of interacting with someone who has going through such things.

[ElitePinecone]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
I personally think it'd be much more interesting, if we were to touch on a subject like this and try to explore it in a mature and unique way, would be to explore it from a perspective of a male that is the victim. In fact, a not insignificant part of me would like to see this avenue only explored towards a male PC. Mostly just as a personal experiment to see how much people truly want to explore these types of dark themes, and what it's like to be a victim and to be powerless to do anything about it (i.e. the opportunity for revenge just never happens). The cynic in me, however, suspects that this would not be as well received.

I suspect the reaction would be, in general, extraordinarily negative, even if the idea is very interesting and confronting.

For players that treat the protagonist as an all-powerful hero, or occasionally even as a beacon of masculinity if they're using maleShep or a male Warden/Hawke, a rape storyline with 'them' as the victim does tie into a whole bunch of thorny issues. I mean, in some circles even ME3's (consensual) m/m content was massively divisive because it involved Shepard - some just couldn't accept that in someone else's optional universe their player character might actually use that content. 

It is a good thought experiment just from a game design perspective though, we hear so much (even on the BSN) about gamers wanting 'maturity', or 'dark' material - but how far does that extend? Would people want it to happen to their character, since that's probably the most direct and confronting way to present the material? Do they understand what that would entail, from a storytelling and presentation perspective?

I think there's probably a twinge of hypocrisy in the debate somewhere: torture and rape are dark (but 'realistic'? "appropriate'?) if they're external to the player or even conducted by the player character, but if the PC was a victim I think a lot of the same people would be immensely uncomfortable. 

I also would defer to the attitude I've seen Bioware devs express rather often - the desire for 'mature' or 'adult' storytelling has to be balanced by what the game actually needs (would the Warden's imprisonment in Fort Drakon be made any more effective by a rape scene?) and by the understandable lines that the devs themselves are uncomfortable with crossing - especially if it risks alienating some groups of fans who would be uncomfortable with sexual violence. 

[Maria Caliban]

Dhiro wrote...

And what exactly is a "normal gay man"? I'd hate to think I'm doing something wrong.

Being a 'normal gay woman' means engaging in orgiastic excess on an hourly basis. I assume it's like that only with more sparkles and a great soundtrack.

[Allan Schumacher]

I think the biggest barrier to something like that is that I can't possibly imagine what it would be like to write a character like that.

If we try it, and get it wrong, all we have done is exceptionally offend those that have been through it.


When I was 13 I lost my brother, and one of the most aggravating comments in the aftermath is when someone, in good faith and with compassionate intent, would give any indication that they knew how I was feeling.

I definitely do feel that I (even as someone that isn't a writer) could accurately and appropriately create reactions for a character that loses a sibling. If I were to write dialogue for someone that is a victim of something like rape, my responses end up becoming "a non-rape victims impressions and assumptions about what it must be like to be a rape victim."


This is why I love that our writing team has so many women on it. That way female perspective is not written from a man that has an idea for what the female perspective might be, but includes females that genuinely have a female perspective.

[frag971]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I think the biggest barrier to something like that is that I can't possibly imagine what it would be like to write a character like that.

If we try it, and get it wrong, all we have done is exceptionally offend those that have been through it.


When I was 13 I lost my brother, and one of the most aggravating comments in the aftermath is when someone, in good faith and with compassionate intent, would give any indication that they knew how I was feeling.

I definitely do feel that I (even as someone that isn't a writer) could accurately and appropriately create reactions for a character that loses a sibling. If I were to write dialogue for someone that is a victim of something like rape, my responses end up becoming "a non-rape victims impressions and assumptions about what it must be like to be a rape victim."

Yes that is why it has to be handled very carefully. You summed it up better than me actually. Thankfully i haven't have any of the big negative life experiences so perhaps someone would has gone through them would probably be the best, if not the only, person to conduct it's implementation.

Allan Schumacher wrote...

This is why I love that our writing team has so many women on it. That way female perspective is not written from a man that has an idea for what the female perspective might be, but includes females that genuinely have a female perspective.

This is why i love Bioware storytelling, for having a diverse group of developers.

Modifié par frag971, 24 novembre 2012 - 06:28 .

[Allan Schumacher]

It is a good thought experiment just from a game design perspective though, we hear so much (even on the BSN) about gamers wanting 'maturity', or 'dark' material - but how far does that extend? Would people want it to happen to their character, since that's probably the most direct and confronting way to present the material? Do they understand what that would entail, from a storytelling and presentation perspective?

Agreed, it mostly is just a thought experiment. It's just that in my experiences if I see a thread bring up the idea of mature themes, it likely means "uncomfortable themes" and will almost undoubtedly include topics like rape, incest, and torture.

I remember Dan O'Bannon talking about how part of the reason why Alien is so terrifying is that it's essentially interspecies rape. That it includes "homosexual oral rape" is another great way to make male viewers uncomfortable as well. Extending to this, I'm curious how well people that want to explore darker themes would really still be interested in it if it was their player that became the victim.

[upsettingshorts]

There's a fantastic post in a similar thread that I think ought to be repeated every time the subject comes up:

Vandicus wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

/tongueInCheek

Isn't a setting where sexism isn't an issue an innately more mature one?


Mmmm, Can of worms.

Well, see the rating systems for video games is basically backwards. This is for a very important reason, but its still backwards, but people use it as a measuring stick of maturity anyways.

A setting where, all else being equal, the denizens are not sexist, is one with more mature characters than a setting where the characters are sexist. Likewise a setting where people solve their problems without violence and lacking in racism would be more mature than one without those things.

However the more mature the characters of a setting are the more likely it is to receive a PG rating, and the more immature the more likely they are to receive an M rating. That's because the video game rating system is supposed to be a guideline for what maturity level the player should have. The idea is to keep younger folks from seeing immature behavior and emulating it. Unfortunately some people completely miss this, and come to the conclusion that maturity is equivalent to these things that are not included in "less mature" video games. This is partially where the idea that vulgarity and violence equate to maturity comes from.

[frag971]

Racism is not about calling someone derrogatory names. Here's an example:
When the europeans started to explore africa in the past centuries they have found structures such as keeps, fortresses, storage areas, ruins etc... And they were all very perplexed because they couldn't figure out who built them. A few even went as far as believing aliens did it (the first mention of non-divine aliens as far as we know). They kept searching and searching, coming up with wild theories and speculations.

Why? Because they were racist. They didn't call african people names, they didn't insult them in the same way we do it nowadays. They were actually racist in not being able to accept the simple fact that african natives were able to build those things, build anything. They were regarded and slightly smarter than dogs, but still animals. "How is it possible that these negros could possibly build it?" - they would say then, "negros" = "blacks" in portuguese.  In the same way we don't consider that a dog can build a sand castle so the europeans couldn't even consider african natives to be able to construct buildings.

This is the biggest difference in the portrail of racism. Most racism represented in games is usually not actual racism but something resembling ethnic hate, which is another form of discrimination.

Modifié par frag971, 24 novembre 2012 - 06:46 .

[Dhiro]

frag971 wrote...

Racism is not about calling someone derrogatory names. Here's an example:
When the europeans started to explore africa in the past centuries they have found structures such as keeps, fortresses, storage areas, ruins etc... And they were all very perplexed because they couldn't figure out who built them. A few even went as far as believing aliens did it (the first mention of non-divine aliens as far as we know). They kept searching and searching, coming up with wild theories and speculations.

Why? Because they were racist. They didn't call african people names, they didn't insult them in the same way we do it nowadays. They were actually racist in not being able to accept the simple fact that african natives were able to build those things, build anything. They were regarded and slightly smarter than dogs, but still animals. "How is it possible that these negros could possibly build it?" - they would say then, "negros" = "blacks" in portuguese.  In the same way we don't consider that a dog can build a sand castle so the europeans couldn't even consider african natives to be able to construct buildings.

This is the biggest difference in the portrail of racism. Most racism represented in games is usually not actual racism but something resembling ethnic hate, which is another form of discrimination.

Are you from Brazil? If so, I hope you are aware that black people were called something far worse than "negros".

And I think you are missing her point??

[BouncyFrag]

If the ACLU and the tv show Law and Order: Special Victims Unit produced an unholy baby-rpg, that rpg would be the game which you just outlined. This is not a good thing.

Modifié par BouncyFrag, 24 novembre 2012 - 10:03 .

[Tinu]

I'm not against bringing in such themes, but playing a game is also an escape from reality (at least for me). So I don't want to be constantly faced with such heavy loaded themes. It's a fantasy setting, so we don't need to make it a copy of what's all happening in the world...

[efrgfhnm_]

Surely if the writers at BioWare wrote a believable, interesting character, and they thought that adding one of those "dark" themes to their backstory would add to the character as a whole and give them an additional dimension to their personality, rather than just making this addition gratuitous or an attempt to seem dark or risque, then they should.
Otherwise, Dragon Age already includes many adult themes, and since the Mage/Templar conflict is going to be central and that focuses on discrimination and borderline slavery - especially in the case of the Qunari - it doesn't seem necessary to add even more just to try and push boundaries for the sake of pushing boundaries...

[Gibb_Shepard]

Modifié par Gibb_Shepard, 24 novembre 2012 - 12:42 .