136 réponses à ce sujet

[Vilegrim]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

It is a good thought experiment just from a game design perspective though, we hear so much (even on the BSN) about gamers wanting 'maturity', or 'dark' material - but how far does that extend? Would people want it to happen to their character, since that's probably the most direct and confronting way to present the material? Do they understand what that would entail, from a storytelling and presentation perspective?

Agreed, it mostly is just a thought experiment. It's just that in my experiences if I see a thread bring up the idea of mature themes, it likely means "uncomfortable themes" and will almost undoubtedly include topics like rape, incest, and torture.

I remember Dan O'Bannon talking about how part of the reason why Alien is so terrifying is that it's essentially interspecies rape. That it includes "homosexual oral rape" is another great way to make male viewers uncomfortable as well. Extending to this, I'm curious how well people that want to explore darker themes would really still be interested in it if it was their player that became the victim.

Most definetly, more interested in fact.

[Lennard Testarossa]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
There's a fantastic post in a similar thread that I think ought to be repeated every time the subject comes up:

Vandicus wrote...
A setting where, all else being equal, the denizens are not sexist, is one with more mature characters than a setting where the characters are sexist. Likewise a setting where people solve their problems without violence and lacking in racism would be more mature than one without those things.

>implying that sexism and violence are somehow immature

[Cimeas]

You know what, I would eventually like to get to the point where the main character is (without choice or exception, male or female) raped, and you have to deal with that. Do you tell people, will they react differently if they know? What if they find out by themselves? Will your romance feel lied to?

However, we're a long, long way away from that, and even when we get there, it won't be in a mainstream game like DA.
Until then, I want to see one of your companions get raped. I think a female companion would genuinely be better for a number of reasons.

1) Men are naturally stronger (in general). That's not sexist, it's a fact. In wartimes, especially in medieval Europe (on which some of DA is based), there was widespread rape of women (and indeed children, but once again that might be too far).

2) Most rape is done by men. Women are (by far) the most common victims. Though it wouldn't hurt to have it the other way round, it makes it a more believable situation imho.

3) Man on Man rape has to be done very, very carefully. Male on female rape needs to be done with consideration, but the premise is unlikely to be laughable. A woman is not weak, nor is she a 'bad woman' if she is raped, but a man is seen as unable to defend themselves and un-masculine if they are.

4) Since very few men are raped (comparatively to women) and none of the writing staff are likely to know or even have met any men that have been raped (whereas if you look at the statistics, a member of the team probably does know a female rape victim) it would probably come off badly

5) Some of the immature (mostly male) core gaming audience would probably find it laughable/complain that their character/friend has been made a 'fool of'.


Overall then, I would like to see one of the PC's friends being raped, that would be a big step forward imho.

Modifié par Cimeas, 24 novembre 2012 - 02:19 .

[ElitePinecone]

Cimeas wrote...
Overall then, I would like to see one of your friends being raped, that would be a big step forward imho.

You could definitely phrase this better.

[Cimeas]

Hahahaha, I almost want to leave that in just for comedic effect, but I'll edit.

[whykikyouwhy]

Cimeas wrote...

You know what, I would eventually like to get to the point where the main character is (without choice or exception, male or female) raped, and you have to deal with that. Do you tell people, will they react differently if they know? What if they find out by themselves? Will your romance feel lied to?

However, we're a long, long way away from that, and even when we get there, it won't be in a mainstream game like DA.
Until then, I want to see one of your companions get raped. I think a female companion would genuinely be better for a number of reasons.

1) Men are naturally stronger (in general). That's not sexist, it's a fact. In wartimes, especially in medieval Europe (on which some of DA is based), there was widespread rape of women (and indeed children, but once again that might be too far).

2) Most rape is done by men. Women are (by far) the most common victims. Though it wouldn't hurt to have it the other way round, it makes it a more believable situation imho.

3) Man on Man rape has to be done very, very carefully. Male on female rape needs to be done with consideration, but the premise is unlikely to be laughable. A woman is not weak, nor is she a 'bad woman' if she is raped, but a man is seen as unable to defend themselves and un-masculine if they are.

4) Since very few men are raped (comparatively to women) and none of the writing staff are likely to know or even have met any men that have been raped (whereas if you look at the statistics, a member of the team probably does know a female rape victim) it would probably come off badly

5) Some of the immature (mostly male) core gaming audience would probably find it laughable/complain that their character/friend has been made a 'fool of'.


Overall then, I would like to see one of your friends being raped, that would be a big step forward imho.

Many of your points are broad generalizations, and you don't seem to be taking into consideration the implications of social structure - of how culture defines the good or the bad within such crimes.

Any rape scene, within any medium, should be handled "very, very carefully" - regardless of the gender of the victim or the assailant. And while you may think that female victims of rape are not seen as weak or "bad," that such is not the social stigma placed upon them in the aftermath, I would have to say that you are incorrect in that viewpoint. 

So too, I don't think you should make assumptions as to experiences of people that the writers know, or that they themselves have undergone.

If a companion rape scene is what you would eventually like to see in a game, that's one thing. But I think you could do without the qualifying statements that are laced with stereotypes and conjecture. Imho, of course.

[Nefla]

DA:O had instances of torture, rape, racism and I liked the way it was handled. DA2 was silly though. Can these themes be done better? Yes. One of my favorite parts in a game is in Metal Gear Solid 3 where big boss (you) has been caught, roughed up, and is chained there helpless about to have his eye cut out and this tough character is breathing so ragged and even wets his pants in fear.

However I think having ALL of those things explored in one game and all explored graphically in the foreground just sounds like a teenage girl's angsty fantasy. Like a yaoi fanfic.

[Cimeas]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Cimeas wrote...

You know what, I would eventually like to get to the point where the main character is (without choice or exception, male or female) raped, and you have to deal with that. Do you tell people, will they react differently if they know? What if they find out by themselves? Will your romance feel lied to?

However, we're a long, long way away from that, and even when we get there, it won't be in a mainstream game like DA.
Until then, I want to see one of your companions get raped. I think a female companion would genuinely be better for a number of reasons.

1) Men are naturally stronger (in general). That's not sexist, it's a fact. In wartimes, especially in medieval Europe (on which some of DA is based), there was widespread rape of women (and indeed children, but once again that might be too far).

2) Most rape is done by men. Women are (by far) the most common victims. Though it wouldn't hurt to have it the other way round, it makes it a more believable situation imho.

3) Man on Man rape has to be done very, very carefully. Male on female rape needs to be done with consideration, but the premise is unlikely to be laughable. A woman is not weak, nor is she a 'bad woman' if she is raped, but a man is seen as unable to defend themselves and un-masculine if they are.

4) Since very few men are raped (comparatively to women) and none of the writing staff are likely to know or even have met any men that have been raped (whereas if you look at the statistics, a member of the team probably does know a female rape victim) it would probably come off badly

5) Some of the immature (mostly male) core gaming audience would probably find it laughable/complain that their character/friend has been made a 'fool of'.


Overall then, I would like to see one of your friends being raped, that would be a big step forward imho.

Many of your points are broad generalizations, and you don't seem to be taking into consideration the implications of social structure - of how culture defines the good or the bad within such crimes.

Any rape scene, within any medium, should be handled "very, very carefully" - regardless of the gender of the victim or the assailant. And while you may think that female victims of rape are not seen as weak or "bad," that such is not the social stigma placed upon them in the aftermath, I would have to say that you are incorrect in that viewpoint. 

So too, I don't think you should make assumptions as to experiences of people that the writers know, or that they themselves have undergone.

If a companion rape scene is what you would eventually like to see in a game, that's one thing. But I think you could do without the qualifying statements that are laced with stereotypes and conjecture. Imho, of course.

There's the bad social stigma that they were 'asking for it' ,sure, but I have never heard of any woman being called 'weak' because she didn't fight back during rape. 

Also, many times I used 'generally'.  This is a game of probabilities.  It *isn't* likely, for example, that the writing staff knows a man that has been raped, but it *is* that they know a woman who has suffered ('at least') some kind of sexual assault. 

Also, of course male/female rape needs to be handled very carefully to avoid causing offence, but it very rarely is seen as *laughable*, whereas (due to the stereotype that all 'tough guys' are straight) male/male (technically 'gay') rape could easily be almost ridiculous, if it's not done right.   

[hoorayforicecream]

Cimeas wrote...

There's the bad social stigma that they were 'asking for it' ,sure, but I have never heard of any woman being called 'weak' because she didn't fight back during rape. 

Also, many times I used 'generally'.  This is a game of probabilities.  It *isn't* likely, for example, that the writing staff knows a man that has been raped, but it *is* that they know a woman who has suffered ('at least') some kind of sexual assault. 

Also, of course male/female rape needs to be handled very carefully to avoid causing offence, but it very rarely is seen as *laughable*, whereas (due to the stereotype that all 'tough guys' are straight) male/male (technically 'gay') rape could easily be almost ridiculous, if it's not done right.   

There is no way that treating a subject this sensitive "generally" or "by probability" will ever result in quality results.

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

This thread is going to get locked down very soon...

[Blackrising]

I don't mind topics like rape coming up in the game. It can be a very powerful tool to invoke emotions in the player. However, this is an incredibly sensitive subject and I completly trust the writers of Bioware to know in what circumstance it would add to the story and when it would be unnecessary.

[Cimeas]

Nothing is added unnecessarily. Rape is a storytelling tool, like anything else. It should be handled with care, but it should also be an important part of a character's journey and I think it can add to the emotional impact of a game.

[Darth Death]

People here are talking about rape so causally.

[Helena Tylena]

Darth Death wrote...

People here are talking about rape so causally.

Hypothetical fictional rape != actual rape.

[ElitePinecone]

Cimeas wrote...

Hahahaha, I almost want to leave that in just for comedic effect, but I'll edit.

I actually meant that wanting a mandatory rape scene in the game just because it's edgy strikes me as bizarrely poor taste. Narrative storytelling shouldn't be about a checkbox of dark themes to shoehorn into the game, and there is (understandably) much more sensitivity to sexualised violence than to torture or discrimination. 

If Bioware wanted to make it a feature and thought that they had a way to do it, that's their perogative, but I find the blase way that this topic is being talked about to be a bit off-putting. 

[Massakkolia]

Cimeas wrote...

3) Man on Man rape has to be done very, very carefully. Male on female rape needs to be done with consideration, but the premise is unlikely to be laughable. A woman is not weak, nor is she a 'bad woman' if she is raped, but a man is seen as unable to defend themselves and un-masculine if they are. 

4) Since very few men are raped (comparatively to women) and none of the writing staff are likely to know or even have met any men that have been raped (whereas if you look at the statistics, a member of the team probably does know a female rape victim) it would probably come off badly

First, unfortunately quite a large number of men have suffered a sexual assault of some kind. The statistics are an inadequate way to discuss about rape since such a large number of them go unreported (especially the most common ones, that is, those that happen within relationships and in prisons). Anyhow, out of known sexual assault cases just within United States around 10 percent of the victims are male. Many researchers estimate that the proportion of male victims is actually significantly higher. It is by no means a trifling issue.

Second, writers throughout the history have written about issues they or people who they are close to have not experienced. It's called the combination of imagination and research. Nothing prevents writers from reading literature, meeting victims of sexual assault or meeting with professional people who help the victims. Empathising with different people is what writers do. 

Third, this whole idea that male rape is somehow more prone to be described as laughable is in your head. Rape is always a difficult and traumatic issue to write about no matter who the victim is. Indeed, due to culturally embedded expectations male and female victims may suffer differently and this should be taken into consideration by the writer. However, I highly doubt any somewhat intelligent writer would attempt to describe a rape scene as a comical occasion. If you're afraid it may be interpreted as such due to the fact that males are usually considered "strong", I suggest you get rid of that kind of thinking. I can assure you that helplessness and the anger of failing to defend yourself are very much the sort of feelings a victim goes through regardless of their gender.

As far as difficult topics in general go, Bioware has attempted both successfully and unsuccessfully tackling them in the past. Difficult or sensitive issues should not be shunned at all but when dealing with issues such as racism, sexism or mental illness (all themes have been been present in previous Bioware games), the issue in hand should be approached from different view points. Having a wide variety of different people in the writing team certainly helps and that seems to be what Bioware is doing.

Modifié par Ria, 24 novembre 2012 - 04:12 .

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Why should they bother moving the medium forward? Just give us a good/great game with good/great story, characters, gameplay, choices and ending.

Darth Death wrote...

People here are talking about rape so causally.

People talk about butching and killing various NPC in the series in horrific manners casually so why would this subject be any different?

Modifié par DarkKnightHolmes, 24 novembre 2012 - 04:48 .

[axl99]

No one should ever - EVER - use rape in any capacity to show how "dark and mature" the narrative is in a videogame. Using it as a plot device is in poor taste. The fact some one here on these forums would even suggest it for a fictional character regardless of gender or race is disgusting and debasing.

And you should be damned ashamed of yourself.

[BouncyFrag]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Why should they bother moving the medium forward? Just give us a good/great game with good/great story, characters, gameplay, choices and ending.

Darth Death wrote...

People here are talking about rape so causally.

People talk about butching and killing various NPC in the series in horrific manners casually so why would this subject be any different?

Violence is an accepted, 'normal' aspect to gaming. Rape is not and and people who want this have issues. Pretty simple IMO.

Modifié par BouncyFrag, 24 novembre 2012 - 05:44 .

[BouncyFrag]

Rojahar wrote...

Isn't rape already used as a plot device, back in DAO with the city elf origin? And isn't it more or less implied that templars raping mages is a regular occurrence?

People are like "OMG! I would never go near a game that has anything to do with rape!" on the DA forums? Wasn't "We're so dark and edgy, we have rock music in our trailers and rape in our origins!" part the DAO ad campaign?

Overreaction much? Some people don't want to see the game turn into a rape simulator.