136 réponses à ce sujet

[LinksOcarina]

The question of Rape actually reminds me of something, the Tomb Raider re-boot or whatever you call it had a trailer out about a month ago that people were up in arms against, because it depicted an " Attemplted Rape Scene". Now of course this is highly sensationalized because writers like Jim Sterling enjoy spreading so they get hits, but the reaction was basically one of two things; either that A) this is not rape, or that this was going way too far.

The scene in question had maybe 3 seconds of suggestive dialogue and actions by a nameless thug before Lara essentially kills him. That said, the scene is still a bit disturbing because of the said implications.

So the question should not be if this is done, is it done tastefully. The question should be is the general gaming public ready to accept something done tastefully. I still know a lot of people who have hangups regarding the same sex romances in Dragon Age as it is, and they can't get behind the more weighty aspects of the narrative either.

So I don't think were all ready just yet as a gaming community for even implied and ramifications of a sexual assault, even though we have seen BioWare do it before. If it becomes more "talked about" then it was, it might come off the wrong way for a lot of people, regardless of intent. Same goes for other topics up there, although some of them I just scratch my head at, like more sexual diversity...which we already have in spades.

[2leggywillow]

slimgrin wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
I wouldn't imply that.

I'd explicitly state it, going so far as to repeat it several times to ensure there is no mistaking where I stand on the issue.

Sexism and violence are immature.
Sexism and violence are immature.
Sexism and violence are immature.
Sexism and violence are immature.
Sexism and violence are immature.

See?

In that case, we can all be glad you're not the one writing the game.

I'm certainly glad.  I'd hate for Dragon Age to miss out on the opportunity to break new ground and show how mature it is by showing us sexual violence against women.

Someone please lock this thread.

[slimgrin]

2leggywillow wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
I wouldn't imply that.

I'd explicitly state it, going so far as to repeat it several times to ensure there is no mistaking where I stand on the issue.

Sexism and violence are immature.
Sexism and violence are immature.
Sexism and violence are immature.
Sexism and violence are immature.
Sexism and violence are immature.

See?

In that case, we can all be glad you're not the one writing the game.

I'm certainly glad.  I'd hate for Dragon Age to miss out on the opportunity to break new ground and show how mature it is by showing us sexual violence against women.

Someone please lock this thread.

Well the DA games have already done it. Sorry to disappoint you. 

Modifié par slimgrin, 24 novembre 2012 - 09:13 .

[LinksOcarina]

2leggywillow wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
I wouldn't imply that.

I'd explicitly state it, going so far as to repeat it several times to ensure there is no mistaking where I stand on the issue.

Sexism and violence are immature.
Sexism and violence are immature.
Sexism and violence are immature.
Sexism and violence are immature.
Sexism and violence are immature.

See?

In that case, we can all be glad you're not the one writing the game.

I'm certainly glad.  I'd hate for Dragon Age to miss out on the opportunity to break new ground and show how mature it is by showing us sexual violence against women.

Someone please lock this thread.

Ok, how do you approach these topics maturely, if at all? And is it ok for any media to do so? 

[Realmzmaster]

I do not understand all this talk about dark, gritty and mature. I play games to have fun. It goes back to my favorite question ,"How much realism do you want in your fantasy?". Dragon Age already states or implies many of the dark themes that gamers are talking about.

What do gamers really want? Must it be more in your face? Do gamers really want to see a scene where let's say the PC (male or female) gets gang raped? I find it hard to believe that my Cousland warden or Hawke (male or female) would get gang raped without killing many of the would be perpetrators.

I would find it hard to believe that Merrill, Bethany, Morrigan or Wynne would get gang raped without sending many of the perpetrators to oblivion. What about Aveline or Isabela do you really see them getting raped by anyone? The best chance for Bethany to get raped was when she or any companion is kidnapped, but then Thrask would not allow it to happen.

A mage from the Circle, a city or dalish elf maybe dwarf commoner there is more of a possibility of that happening.

The companions and PC are larger than life which is one of the reasons gamers like to roleplay them. I doubt many gamers here would like to see a situation where their PC was gang raped and unable to exact any revenge. I also do not think it would sit well. Nor do I think gamers would want to see a companion get raped without the ability to exact revenge in some way.

What if a companion does get raped and the PC says the wrong thing. The companion goes off and commits suicide an act later. Would that be okay? There is no backtracking unless you have a save from the previous act. How much realism do you want?

What if the companion tells the PC she or he knows who did it? The PC exacts revenge on that group. The companion then accuses someone else who the PC knows is perfectly innocent. Did the PC just kill a bunch of innocents? That happens in real life.

As far as women being seen as not weak if they are raped that hogwash. Women in the wild west were seen as weak if they decided to survive the rape rather than kill themselves. It was even worse if they became pregnant and decide to have the child. Women were to bit their tongues off and bleed to death rather than submit to rape.

One of the great dirty secrets of the Wild West was the high incidence of pederasty and homosexual rape. Many of the young cattle herders were used as women.
It was also common for white men to rape or force into common law marriages Indian women. The white women had less to fear from the Indian man.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 24 novembre 2012 - 09:17 .

[upsettingshorts]

slimgrin wrote...

Well the DA games have already done it. Sorry to disappoint you. 

That doesn't make them mature, it means mature audiences are supposed to be able recognize how reprehensible such content is and consider it appropriately.  Hence, Vandicus' whole original argument I quoted.  Hence, just throwing it in with the misguided, yet sadly common, notion that its presence alone elevates the narrative doesn't just miss the entire point, it's offensive and embarrassing.  

LinksOcarina wrote...

Ok, how do you approach these topics maturely, if at all? And is it ok for any media to do so? 

You start by being the kind of person who looks upon the majority of the arguments in this thread with contempt.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 24 novembre 2012 - 09:20 .

[LinksOcarina]

Realmzmaster wrote...

What do gamers really want?

sorry to cherry pick this, but they don't know the answer to that either. So it again should be a question of not what they want, but what they can handle.

[LinksOcarina]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Ok, how do you approach these topics maturely, if at all? And is it ok for any media to do so? 

You start by being the kind of person who looks upon the majority of the arguments in this thread with contempt.

Well, I am already there. 

Whats next? 

[upsettingshorts]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Well, I am already there. 

Whats next? 

I don't know.  Part of what spurred on this whole renaissance of rape-plot requests, as hideous as that sounds, is David Gaider's Tumblr post about the value of different perspectives in a collaborative creative process.  I'm certain my perspective isn't sufficient to know how to go about some plots in an appropriate way.

I know it's hard impossible for most on the BSN to do, but sometimes acknowledging that you don't have a clue and at a certain point no-one should really care what you think is the right move.

If I was compelled to come up with an answer to your question, I'd do my research and talk to people who actually have had those experiences and listen to them. Since I have not done this, I cannot provide such an answer now.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 24 novembre 2012 - 09:28 .

[LinksOcarina]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Well, I am already there. 

Whats next? 

I don't know.  Part of what spurred on this whole renaissance of rape-plot requests, as hideous as that sounds, is David Gaider's Tumblr post about the value of different perspectives in a collaborative creative process.  I'm certian my perspective isn't sufficient to know how to go about some plots in an appropriate way.

I know it's hard impossible for most on the BSN to do, but sometimes acknowledging that you don't have a clue and at a certain point no-one should really care what you think is the right move.

If I was compelled to come up with an answer to your question, I'd do my research and talk to people who actually have had those experiences and listen to them. Since I have not done this, I cannot provide such an answer now.

Well to be frank, that was the point of my question. Which is why any sort of complaint or overraction is, well, immature in of itself. 

I don't expect anyone to know. We can research it all we like but that doesn't make us experts int he end, and we can only empathize with those who have gone through something like that. So this entire thread is pointless in some regard because any inclusion of something very touchy will be met with knee jerk reactions on both sides, regardless of how its done, again going back to th question of "are people ready for it to be tackled?"

[upsettingshorts]

I think that falls into the common "both sides are bad" trope present in political narratives that falls apart under scrutiny, especially the characterization that places all reactions under the implicitly dismissive label of "knee jerk."

This very thread has people angrily reacting to an individual who has had such an experience who dared to assert the value of their perspective.

I'd wager anyone seriously interested in the subject could find a number of far better sources than a videogame - I'd start with, I don't know, non-fiction - in any case. That isn't a blanket statement against the inclusion of any given topic in any given game, but if this thread and the BSN at large are evidence of any concrete answer to your question, I'd say it would come down emphatically in favor of this audience not being ready.

And I think that's enough said about it.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 24 novembre 2012 - 09:38 .

[LinksOcarina]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I think that falls into the common "both sides are bad" trope present in political narratives that falls apart under scrutiny, especially the characterization that places all reactions under the implicitly dismissive label of "knee jerk."

This very thread has people angrily reacting to an individual who has had such an experience who dared to assert the value of their perspective.

I'd wager anyone seriously interested in the subject could find a number of far better sources than a videogame - I'd start with, I don't know, non-fiction - in any case. That isn't a blanket statement against the inclusion of any given topic in any given game, but if this thread and the BSN at large are evidence of any concrete answer to your question, I'd say it would come down emphatically in favor of this audience not being ready.

And I think that's enough said about it.

the outsider looking in sees only knee-jerk reactions, which makes it hard to discern any information. Fair point to the rest though, although I seriously do feel like boths sides are sort of wrong in this case.

Then again, I also said both BioWare and the fans were wrong regarding the Mass Effect 3 ending, so at least I am consistant even though its a bit cynical. 

[Lennard Testarossa]

EntropicAngel wrote...
I think you guys are talking about two different things. I think Shorts is saying actual sexism and violence is immature. It looks like you're saying the portrayal of them is mature. Two different things.

I didn't even say that their portayal is mature. I only said that neither sexism nor violence whether in reality or in fiction are inherently immature.

By our standards, the Romans were both sexistic and violent. To suggest that this means that all Romans were immature is beyond ridiculous.

[upsettingshorts]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

By our standards, the Romans were both sexistic and violent. To suggest that this means that all Romans were immature is beyond ridiculous.

Sure, if your assertion is that humanity has not learned anything over the course of the last two-thousand years.

Good luck with that argument. I'll do you the favor of getting you started:  Pretend entire centuries' worth of philosophy and social theory never happened.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 24 novembre 2012 - 09:53 .

[LinksOcarina]

EntropicAngel wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...


Well to be frank, that was the point of my question. Which is why any sort of complaint or overraction is, well, immature in of itself. 

I don't expect anyone to know. We can research it all we like but that doesn't make us experts int he end, and we can only empathize with those who have gone through something like that. So this entire thread is pointless in some regard because any inclusion of something very touchy will be met with knee jerk reactions on both sides, regardless of how its done, again going back to th question of "are people ready for it to be tackled?"

And even then, two people will deal with it in completely different ways. One may grow from an event, while another may stay there and struggle with it every day. One might approve of the portrayal, another might not.

True.

But the question then also becomes what is acceptable in the end? I remember the first video I saw of Far Cry 3 was a naked woman grinding on top of the player character, you looking at her in first person. 

And five years ago, a fake news station said Mass Effect was a porn simulator becuase it showed three seconds of side-boob on you. 

So in some ways things have become acceptable in smaller doses yes. Is seeing boobs something that is ready to be tackled? Is sex and sexuality, intimacy and relationships? Even if the interpretations are different, no one would be questioning wether or not it should have been shown, but rather how it was shown, if that makes sense. So it becomes less of a question of if its done or not, and more of a question of how its done, which is that mark of maturity of the audience at large, i.e, if they are ready to tackle a subject like this.

The debate basically shifts from when to how. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 24 novembre 2012 - 09:56 .

[xsdob]

This sounds like it's a series of "women in refrigerators" moments just begging to happen, and therefore should not be handled with even if extreme care is used.

And castration? No, hell no, hell freaking no for either a man or a women to go through. We do not need to see that or have it be a character trait or plot point.

[Massakkolia]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I think that falls into the common "both sides are bad" trope present in political narratives that falls apart under scrutiny, especially the characterization that places all reactions under the implicitly dismissive label of "knee jerk."

This very thread has people angrily reacting to an individual who has had such an experience who dared to assert the value of their perspective.

I'd wager anyone seriously interested in the subject could find a number of far better sources than a videogame - I'd start with, I don't know, non-fiction - in any case. That isn't a blanket statement against the inclusion of any given topic in any given game, but if this thread and the BSN at large are evidence of any concrete answer to your question, I'd say it would come down emphatically in favor of this audience not being ready.

And I think that's enough said about it.

Luckily BSN hardly qualifies as any sort of evidence of what the audience is or is not ready for. While I agree with most points you've made in this thread, I think your conclusion is far too pessimistic. The reason gaming audience often acts immature (based on forum posts) is at least partly because so many games cater to that immaturity.

If game developers just keep waiting for their audience to magically grow up before they can add profound content to their products, games as an industry and as an art form will never mature. If you target your game to stereotypical young adult males, that's what you get. There's plenty of gamers reaching their thirties, starting families and actually abandoning their old hobby of gaming because it doesn't offer them enough relatable and mature content. Many don't bother complaining in the internet, they just quit and find something more interesting to do.

Mature products will find mature audience, and, in some cases, even manage to cultivate their previously immature audience into something that appreciates and demands well-crafted storytelling.

Modifié par Ria, 24 novembre 2012 - 10:11 .

[Lennard Testarossa]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Sure, if your assertion is that humanity has not learned anything over the course of the last two-thousand years.

Good luck with that argument. I'll do you the favor of getting you started: Pretend entire centuries' worth of philosophy and social theory never happened.

So not suscribing to a certain philosophy is immature? Maturity is the ability ro react to and comprehend things in a way that is appropriate to your culture. It has nothing to do with having a "correct" worldview.

Even today, after "entire centuries' worth of philosophy and social theory" there are billions of people on this planet that hold views you would deem sexist. Appearently, the majority of humanity is immature.

[In Exile]

EntropicAngel wrote...
Others, like me, play because they want to learn, grow. For me, a game should be as thought-provoking as a book.

How is this, at all, related to the portrayal of sexual violence? How does that get at this end? How does a grimdark world get at this end? 

There's this underlying premise in this whole conversation that there's some kind of intrisic merit in the ostensibly realistic portrayal of this sort of violence, but what is that, exactly?

All I can see as having actual artistic merit is the point Alan raised: to have the protagonist be completely powerless That would be a novel use of the gaming medium and its interactivity. But all I see here (from other gamers) are requests that (mostly) female companions are assaulted to show... effectively, that the settng is "realistic" in some way. And frankly, that's offensive.

Lennard Testarossa wrote...
By our standards, the Romans were
both sexistic and violent. To suggest that this means that all Romans
were immature is beyond ridiculous.

Which by our standards could very well make them immature. The point of this sort of cultural relativism is to recognize that there is no true objective view, not that from the POV of a particular view, there aren't clear answers.

Modifié par In Exile, 24 novembre 2012 - 10:21 .

[LinksOcarina]

Ria wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I think that falls into the common "both sides are bad" trope present in political narratives that falls apart under scrutiny, especially the characterization that places all reactions under the implicitly dismissive label of "knee jerk."

This very thread has people angrily reacting to an individual who has had such an experience who dared to assert the value of their perspective.

I'd wager anyone seriously interested in the subject could find a number of far better sources than a videogame - I'd start with, I don't know, non-fiction - in any case. That isn't a blanket statement against the inclusion of any given topic in any given game, but if this thread and the BSN at large are evidence of any concrete answer to your question, I'd say it would come down emphatically in favor of this audience not being ready.

And I think that's enough said about it.

Luckily BSN hardly qualifies as any sort of evidence of what the audience is or is not ready for. While I agree with most points you've made in this thread, I think your conclusion is far too pessimistic. The reason gaming audience often acts immature (based on forum posts) is at least partly because so many games cater to that immaturity.

If game developers just keep waiting for their audience to magically grow up before they can add profound content to their products, games as an industry and as an art form will never mature. If you target your game to stereotypical young adult males, that's what you get. There's plenty of gamers reaching their thirties, starting families and actually abandoning their old hobby of gaming because it doesn't offer them enough relatable and mature content. Many don't bother complaining in the internet, they just quit and find something more interesting to do.

Mature products will find mature audience, and, in some cases, even manage to cultivate their previously immature audience into something that appreciates and demands well-crafted storytelling.

If that is the case, why do mature products become reviled for trying to break that glass ceiling?  It is a strange sort of double standard the gaming community at large has to be fair. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 24 novembre 2012 - 10:24 .

[upsettingshorts]

Ria wrote...

Luckily BSN hardly qualifies as any sort of evidence of what the audience is or is not ready for. While I agree with most points you've made in this thread, I think your conclusion is far too pessimistic.

Look around, can you blame me?

[Fredward]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Ria wrote...

Luckily BSN hardly qualifies as any sort of evidence of what the audience is or is not ready for. While I agree with most points you've made in this thread, I think your conclusion is far too pessimistic.

Look around, can you blame me?

My soul has aged at least 8 years since joining the BSN. I have a theory Bioware is harnessing soul power for some nefarious purpose. xp