136 réponses à ce sujet

[LinksOcarina]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Ria wrote...

Luckily BSN hardly qualifies as any sort of evidence of what the audience is or is not ready for. While I agree with most points you've made in this thread, I think your conclusion is far too pessimistic.

Look around, can you blame me?

I hate to say it, but I am in the same camp.

[Massakkolia]

LinksOcarina wrote...

If that is the case, why do mature products become reviled for trying to break that glass ceiling?  It is a strange sort of double standard the gaming community at large has to be fair. 

Which products would those be? I can't think of a single one. Independent art projects get their share of admiration (from their own circle) and revilement (outside that circle) but as far as mainstream products go, I'm not sure there even are any proper examples. Even the best examples of games appear immature compared to the best of literature or film. That needs to change.

Bioware games have added some elements that "try to break the glass ceiling", as you said. Though BSN posts may sometimes suggest differently, I think the overall reception of, for example, inclusion of sexual minorities has been overwhelmingly positive. I'm pretty sure Bioware expanded their audience with that decision or, at the very least, maintained their net audience. 

Other mainstream game, Fallout: New Vegas, tackled many difficult issues quite laudably, and I haven't seen people criticizing the game because of it (bugs are another issue).

Modifié par Ria, 24 novembre 2012 - 10:41 .

[Herr Uhl]

In Exile wrote...

All I can see as having actual artistic merit is the point Alan raised: to have the protagonist be completely powerless That would be a novel use of the gaming medium and its interactivity.

Well, there is Fear 2 that does that. And a male being raped by a female at that.

[Massakkolia]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Ria wrote...

Luckily BSN hardly qualifies as any sort of evidence of what the audience is or is not ready for. While I agree with most points you've made in this thread, I think your conclusion is far too pessimistic.

Look around, can you blame me?

Hah, no I can't. I'm just trying to spread some positivity. Darn these good mood swings;)

[Captain Crash]

I know the issues have been glanced around, but I really dont get why so many people want these themes developed further. We all know these darker elements of human nature exist. I don't see what opening these concepts up into more graphic detail will actually achieve.

Modifié par Captain Crash, 24 novembre 2012 - 10:41 .

[Rixatrix]

 Sometimes, in a story, certain events occur which are difficult to handle. When we pick up a mature video game or book, we can expect something heinous to occur, but we are coming for the riveting story, not the specific heinous event.  We are not obsessed with the specific disturbing act.

There is, however, an issue with asking for rape, sexism, racism, etc. in a story.  In the first instance, you may encounter these events in the experience of a mature story.  In the second instance, however, you are asking for specific events to occur within a story for your entertainment.  When you are asking for a story to present incidents of rape, sexism, racism, etc. for your entertainment, it ceases being incidental and is instead a string of soughtafter, reprehensible events strung together for your pleasure.

I would ask that anyone seeking the second instance examine how they truly perceive these situations.  Curiosity is natural for us humans, but if you are curious about these topics, entertainment (movies, video games, etc.) is not the answer.  Go to your library and pick up some non-fiction to educate yourself about these topics.  Reads victims' accounts, psychologists' interpretations, self-help books, etc. and then re-examine why you desire such topics to define a story you experience. 

Modifié par BlueMoonSeraphim, 24 novembre 2012 - 11:02 .

[Taint Master]

Cimeas wrote...

You know what, I would eventually like to get to the point where the main character is (without choice or exception, male or female) raped, and you have to deal with that. Do you tell people, will they react differently if they know? What if they find out by themselves? Will your romance feel lied to?

However, we're a long, long way away from that, and even when we get there, it won't be in a mainstream game like DA.
Until then, I want to see one of your companions get raped. I think a female companion would genuinely be better for a number of reasons.

1) Men are naturally stronger (in general). That's not sexist, it's a fact. In wartimes, especially in medieval Europe (on which some of DA is based), there was widespread rape of women (and indeed children, but once again that might be too far).

2) Most rape is done by men. Women are (by far) the most common victims. Though it wouldn't hurt to have it the other way round, it makes it a more believable situation imho.

3) Man on Man rape has to be done very, very carefully. Male on female rape needs to be done with consideration, but the premise is unlikely to be laughable. A woman is not weak, nor is she a 'bad woman' if she is raped, but a man is seen as unable to defend themselves and un-masculine if they are.

4) Since very few men are raped (comparatively to women) and none of the writing staff are likely to know or even have met any men that have been raped (whereas if you look at the statistics, a member of the team probably does know a female rape victim) it would probably come off badly

5) Some of the immature (mostly male) core gaming audience would probably find it laughable/complain that their character/friend has been made a 'fool of'.


Overall then, I would like to see one of the PC's friends being raped, that would be a big step forward imho.

Yeah male rape is more of a joke than a "difficult" subject.  Prison rape jokes are a dime a dozen. 

I don't think Bioware could write a believable male on male rape scenario involving the PC unless it happened in their childhood.  Adult male rape is almost nonexistant, and an adult MPC being raped would make the character a complete joke and undermine any sense of heroism they had.

It could be done more believably with a female PC but that would be too big of a story arch to limit to one gender.  Maybe it could be handled like the city elf origin in DAO?

I'd be more interested in seeing domestic violence explored.  It always struck me as odd that this is one subject generally ignored in Bioware games thus far.

Herr Uhl wrote...

In Exile wrote...

All I can see as having actual
artistic merit is the point Alan raised: to have the protagonist be
completely powerless That would be a novel use of the gaming medium and
its interactivity.

Well, there is Fear 2 that does that. And a male being raped by a female at that.

That's physically impossible.

Modifié par Taint Master, 24 novembre 2012 - 11:17 .

[Eternal Phoenix]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
Extending to this, I'm curious how well people that want to explore darker themes would really still be interested in it if it was their player that became the victim.

Bioware games would never be this mature though and what with dumbed down mechanics (i.e statistics not playing a role in dialogue which isn't just limited to DA as so many RPG's no longer have this feature) how could it be implemented in a way where the player can fight back and fail. Unless you get out of it no matter what but the fact that there's an attempt or someone suggesting to rape your character would certainly be an interesting concept.

All I'm really hoping for is for DA3 to have the atmosphere and feel that Origins had when in the Circle Tower and the Deep Roads on some occasions. DA2 never had that and the wave of enemies meant that tension or ominousness was never built as you just had waves of ninjas jumping out of the sky at every given point. Of course mature and controversial topics being explored as well is certainly something I would like to see. Films and books do it and games are just starting to pick up on the pace and I think that games can handle them better (especially RPG's) just because of how (IMO) they are better at immersing the participant.

[Herr Uhl]

Taint Master wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

In Exile wrote...

All I can see as having actual
artistic merit is the point Alan raised: to have the protagonist be
completely powerless That would be a novel use of the gaming medium and
its interactivity.

Well, there is Fear 2 that does that. And a male being raped by a female at that.

That's physically impossible.

*ponders whether to go down this road*

Nah, not worth it.

[Taint Master]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Taint Master wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

In Exile wrote...

All I can see as having actual
artistic merit is the point Alan raised: to have the protagonist be
completely powerless That would be a novel use of the gaming medium and
its interactivity.

Well, there is Fear 2 that does that. And a male being raped by a female at that.

That's physically impossible.

*ponders whether to go down this road*

Nah, not worth it.

A woman can't force a man to penetrate her.

[Reznore57]

Taint Master wrote...


Yeah male rape is more of a joke than a "difficult" subject.  Prison rape jokes are a dime a dozen. 

I don't think Bioware could write a believable male on male rape scenario involving the PC unless it happened in their childhood.  Adult male rape is almost nonexistant, and an MPC being raped would make the character a complete joke and undermine any sense of heroism they had.

It could be done more believably with a female PC but that would be too big of a story arch to limit to one gender.  Maybe it could be handled like the city elf origin in DAO?

I'd be more interested in seeing domestic violence explored.  It always struck me as odd that this is one subject generally ignored in Bioware games thus far.

This is hust getting painful...really , please don't rape my male pc , he's a hero, it doesn't happen to men.
But I guess it's ok for woman?
I mean....Is this a joke or something ?

[Herr Uhl]

Taint Master wrote...

A woman can't force a man to penetrate her.

Well, in the game the character is strapped to a chair and being given hallucinations.

There are such things as involontary erections. The easiest way would be viagra. You're basically arguing that if a woman gets wet while being raped she is not being raped.

/can of worms that I'd rather not go further into.

[Taint Master]

Reznore57 wrote...

Taint Master wrote...


Yeah male rape is more of a joke than a "difficult" subject.  Prison rape jokes are a dime a dozen. 

I don't think Bioware could write a believable male on male rape scenario involving the PC unless it happened in their childhood.  Adult male rape is almost nonexistant, and an MPC being raped would make the character a complete joke and undermine any sense of heroism they had.

It could be done more believably with a female PC but that would be too big of a story arch to limit to one gender.  Maybe it could be handled like the city elf origin in DAO?

I'd be more interested in seeing domestic violence explored.  It always struck me as odd that this is one subject generally ignored in Bioware games thus far.

This is hust getting painful...really , please don't rape my male pc , he's a hero, it doesn't happen to men.
But I guess it's ok for woman?
I mean....Is this a joke or something ?

Male rape isn't viewed the same as female rape.  I'm not saying it's "right" but it is true.

For example.

Modifié par Taint Master, 24 novembre 2012 - 11:31 .

[Xiomara]

Taint Master wrote...

Reznore57 wrote...

Taint Master wrote...


Yeah male rape is more of a joke than a "difficult" subject.  Prison rape jokes are a dime a dozen. 

I don't think Bioware could write a believable male on male rape scenario involving the PC unless it happened in their childhood.  Adult male rape is almost nonexistant, and an MPC being raped would make the character a complete joke and undermine any sense of heroism they had.

It could be done more believably with a female PC but that would be too big of a story arch to limit to one gender.  Maybe it could be handled like the city elf origin in DAO?

I'd be more interested in seeing domestic violence explored.  It always struck me as odd that this is one subject generally ignored in Bioware games thus far.

This is hust getting painful...really , please don't rape my male pc , he's a hero, it doesn't happen to men.
But I guess it's ok for woman?
I mean....Is this a joke or something ?

Male rape isn't viewed the same as female rape.  I'm not saying it's "right" but it is true.

For example.

Aaaaand this topic has reached it's nadir. Congratulations.

[kirvingtwo]

Taint Master wrote...
I'd be more interested in seeing domestic violence explored.  It always struck me as odd that this is one subject generally ignored in Bioware games thus far.

Wow, I was wondering when someone would bring in one of the final cue cards for a dark, gritty, mature fantasy game!

This just reminds me of all the threads that popped up on the Obsidian forums regarding a desire for difficult and mature themes in Project Eternity.  All the same ideas were proposed with obvious bias.  Sexism, misogyny, rape (female victims), torture and humiliation(female victims), enslavement (especially female cuase that's so cool and realistic and you can combine a number of difficult situations and themes) and domestic violence.

Fortunately I have enough faith that the BioWare writers are not using such a checklist to design the story of DA3. (well almost enough faith)

Modifié par kirvingtwo, 24 novembre 2012 - 11:40 .

[Taint Master]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Taint Master wrote...

A woman can't force a man to penetrate her. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/uncertain.png[/smilie]

Well, in the game the character is strapped to a chair and being given hallucinations.

There
are such things as involontary erections. The easiest way would be
viagra. You're basically arguing that if a woman gets wet while being
raped she is not being raped.

No, it's not so much about the
physical responses as it is the mechanics.  I suppose if a woman somehow
tied up a man, force-fed him viagra and went to town it could be
possible, but that's a highly contrived scenario don't you think?

Xiomara wrote...

Taint Master wrote...

Reznore57 wrote...

Taint Master wrote...


Yeah male rape is more of a joke than a "difficult" subject.  Prison rape jokes are a dime a dozen. 

I don't think Bioware could write a believable male on male rape scenario involving the PC unless it happened in their childhood.  Adult male rape is almost nonexistant, and an MPC being raped would make the character a complete joke and undermine any sense of heroism they had.

It could be done more believably with a female PC but that would be too big of a story arch to limit to one gender.  Maybe it could be handled like the city elf origin in DAO?

I'd be more interested in seeing domestic violence explored.  It always struck me as odd that this is one subject generally ignored in Bioware games thus far.

This is hust getting painful...really , please don't rape my male pc , he's a hero, it doesn't happen to men.
But I guess it's ok for woman?
I mean....Is this a joke or something ?

Male rape isn't viewed the same as female rape.  I'm not saying it's "right" but it is true.

For example.

Aaaaand this topic has reached it's nadir. Congratulations.

That's a perfect example of how differently it is viewed.  How many stand up comedians do you see making blatant jokes about female rape?  Male rape doesn't carry the same emotional weight in popular culture, and if Bioware attempted to do it in Dragon Age it would probably backfire.

[Reznore57]

American History X , The hero is rapped , he doesn't turn into a joke.
The HBO tv show OZ many men are raped , it's really far from funny.
If you want mature and shocking thing to happen , you can't ask to stay in your comfort zone .

[Taint Master]

kirvingtwo wrote...

Taint Master wrote...
I'd be more interested in seeing domestic violence explored.  It always struck me as odd that this is one subject generally ignored in Bioware games thus far.

Wow, I was wondering when someone would bring in one of the final cue cards for a dark, gritty, mature fantasy game!

This just reminds me of all the threads that popped up on the Obsidian forums regarding a desire for difficult and mature themes in Project Eternity.  All the same ideas were proposed with obvious bias.  Sexism, misogyny, rape (female victims), torture and humiliation(female victims), enslavement (especially female cuase that's so cool and realistic and you can combine a number of difficult situations and themes) amd domestic violence.

Fortunately I have enough faith that the BioWare writers are not using such a checklist to design the story of DA3. (well almost enough faith)

To clarify, I'm not asking for the ability to abuse a companion.  But being set in a medieval era, it seems very strange that domestic violence has been largely absent from Thedas.

I think Bioware could create very compelling companions or side characters who are dealing with domestic violence in one way or another.  Take the Walking Dead for instance.  One of my favorite characters is Carol, who has an interesting character arc where she develops from an abused housewife to a strong, independant woman.  Would that be so wrong?

[Taint Master]

Reznore57 wrote...

American History X , The hero is rapped , he doesn't turn into a joke.

He was never a hero, and the latter is debatable.  I recall hearing more than a few chuckles from the people I watched that with for the first time...

[Massakkolia]

BlueMoonSeraphim wrote...

 Sometimes, in a story, certain events occur which are difficult to handle. When we pick up a mature video game or book, we can expect something heinous to occur, but we are coming for the riveting story, not the specific heinous event.  We are not obsessed with the specific disturbing act.

There is, however, an issue with asking for rape, sexism, racism, etc. in a story.  In the first instance, you may encounter these events in the experience of a mature story.  In the second instance, however, you are asking for specific events to occur within a story for your entertainment.  When you are asking for a story to present incidents of rape, sexism, racism, etc. for your entertainment, it ceases being incidental and is instead a string of soughtafter, reprehensible events strung together for your pleasure.

I would ask that anyone seeking the second instance examine how they truly perceive these situations.  Curiosity is natural for us humans, but if you are curious about these topics, entertainment (movies, video games, etc.) is not the answer.  Go to your library and pick up some non-fiction to educate yourself about these topics.  Reads victims' accounts, psychologists' interpretations, self-help books, etc. and then re-examine why you desire such topics to define a story you experience. 

While I agree that those issues should not be asked for the sake of "grittiness" or "darkness", there is nothing inherently wrong about describing difficult social issues in fictional form. It is, in fact, immensely important. Humans are "story animals". The very human condition is understood through storytelling from great classical masterpieces to comic strips in your daily newspaper. Fiction, or at least a story format, is an essential tool for us to learn. I have learned about racism through novelists like Toni Morrison, Nadine Gordimer and Salman Rushdie just as much as I have learned through life experiences and non-fiction literature.

Right now in Europe both non-fiction and fiction writers are putting out books about the rise of right wing extremism because it's important to talk about these things in public, because it's important to understand and because, as you said, people are curious. There have been several school shootings in my country within last few years. Those deeply traumatic experiences have been discussed in non-fictional and fictional forms, both serving their purpose. These writers are specifically choosing to write about a specific issue in a story because it is important for the public to understand.

No topic should ever be blocked from fictional presentation. Big public is never going to devour self-help books about sexual assaults unless the book is relevant to their own life experiences. People do, however, devour films, novels and games. For entertainment? Yes, but they also learn from them. Unfortunately there is a lot of misguided fiction out there but that doesn't negate the good ones.

It's important that these kind of topics are discussed maturely and intelligently in mainstream fiction because, for example, sexual violence is an existing social phenomenon that needs to be understood (edit: in order to eradicate it, of course). Fiction can help to empathise with people who have gone through tough experiences and it can bring awareness. If films and literature can do that, why not an interactive medium like gaming?

Modifié par Ria, 25 novembre 2012 - 12:00 .

[Nerevar-as]

Taint Master wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Taint Master wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

In Exile wrote...

All I can see as having actual
artistic merit is the point Alan raised: to have the protagonist be
completely powerless That would be a novel use of the gaming medium and
its interactivity.

Well, there is Fear 2 that does that. And a male being raped by a female at that.

That's physically impossible.

*ponders whether to go down this road*

Nah, not worth it.

A woman can't force a man to penetrate her.

Why not? Sexual response is not something necessarily voluntary.  All the female needs is physically restraining the male. Saying a woman can´t force a man sounds a bit too close to the "no rape if she enjoyed it" excuse.

About how to treat this theme... Berserk did a good job with Gutts, who still had sequels several years after his step father sold him to another soldier. Both the rape and the betrayal still hurt, and kicked at a really innopportune moment.

Then there was the eclipse, and Nightmare Fuel with monsters.

[Harle Cerulean]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Taint Master wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Taint Master wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

In Exile wrote...

All I can see as having actual
artistic merit is the point Alan raised: to have the protagonist be
completely powerless That would be a novel use of the gaming medium and
its interactivity.

Well, there is Fear 2 that does that. And a male being raped by a female at that.

That's physically impossible.

*ponders whether to go down this road*

Nah, not worth it.

A woman can't force a man to penetrate her.

Why not? Sexual response is not something necessarily voluntary.  All the female needs is physically restraining the male. Saying a woman can´t force a man sounds a bit too close to the "no rape if she enjoyed it" excuse.

About how to treat this theme... Berserk did a good job with Gutts, who still had sequels several years after his step father sold him to another soldier. Both the rape and the betrayal still hurt, and kicked at a really innopportune moment.

Then there was the eclipse, and Nightmare Fuel with monsters.

The facts that Taint Master thinks a woman can't rape a man and that people don't make jokes about raping women, just go to show how woefully ignorant he is of reality - and how pointless engaging him on the subject is, because that level if ignorance isn't accidental, it's deliberate.  Rape jokes are everywhere in our culture, and most of them target women.

[Taint Master]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

The facts that Taint Master thinks a woman can't rape a man and that people don't make jokes about raping women, just go to show how woefully ignorant he is of reality - and how pointless engaging him on the subject is, because that level if ignorance isn't accidental, it's deliberate.

Do you have to practice to sound this pretentious?  

Rape jokes are everywhere in our culture, and most of them target women.

I don't know where you're from, but not in America.  Rape is a very sensitive subject when relating to women or children, but when the victim is male it's not treated nearly as seriously.

Look at all the examples of female teachers caught having sex with underaged male students.  The most common reaction from guys is "wow, where was that teacher when I was growing up!?" etc.  There's a huge double standard.

[BouncyFrag]

This might be in order.