514 réponses à ce sujet

[cyrslash1974]

Aiyie wrote...

even in the current cycle we see synthetics and organics wiping each other out.  people point to the peace between geth and quarian as evidence to the contrary.  i point to them as supporting evidence.  the only reason the quarians weren't killed off by the geth was because of Shepard's influence... and even then, it is possible for Shepard to not convince the two sides to make peace on Rannoch (nobody realizes this because nobody goes into that dialgoue without enough paragon or renegade points to make things turn out the way they want).

Geth didn't want war against their creators. Legion explained this point to Shepard in ME2. The reasons the quarians weren't killed off by  the geth was (i) because of Shepard influence and (ii) the Geth themselves. Another evidence that the logic of the catalyst is now stone-age, imo.

[tracesaint]

I am so back and forth on the ending. The Catalyst isn't out of nowhere, but he was the at the end of a very unsatisfying journey. In 3 I began to question decisions made and began looking at what I would have done differently. I did not do that with 1 or 2, and it pulls me out of the experience of 3. The Catalyst pops in at the end of our second trip to Earth, one that is quite rushed. I never felt like the war with the Reapers was a knock down drag out fight. Everything was far too rushed for it to be.

The Catalyst gives you the three options and you have a fourth with the Extended Cut. It just reminded me of other games like Gears of War 3, which also ends with a giant planet covering energy fixing everything. In Gears that was fine, it's Gears. In Mass Effect, I felt something more imaginative should have been used. Not that it matters now anyway, the game is what it is. The Catalyst is there with his logic that sometimes I can digest and other times I cannot, and then I make my decision and send my fix all throughout the galaxy.

To me The Catalyst isn't the worst part. Replacing Emily Wong with Chobot, how the Illusive Man and Kai Leng were handled, the rush job on Thessia and the placement of missions. There were some strange decisions made throughout the course of the game that had pulled me out before I even got to the Catalyst. Would have been better if the Catalyst took the form of Ashley or Kaidan from 1. The child form gives me hope that the kid never existed and perhaps there is some small melding of indoctrination/puzzle theory going on.

[AlanC9]

Nightwriter wrote...

What does the ending say? "You have overcome your differences, but you have made no difference." Our fate is as assured as all those who failed to grow as we did. The geth/quarian peace does not matter; the fact that krogan and turians are fighting side by side does not matter; the fact that you have convinced the Illusive Man (who represents the same "seize control of the Reapers" faction that brought down every past civilization) that he is wrong does not matter. Synthetics will still rebel. The very purpose of the destruction you have been fighting is still assured.

Wait...... Synthetics still rebel? So says the Catalyst, yep. My Sheps typically don't believe him. Why do yours?

[Aiyie]

AlanC9 wrote...

Aiyie wrote...
honsetly, i think the writers just forgot about what was established in ME1... for example, listen to Javik's description of the prothean war with the Reapers.  he talks about them fighting planet to planet, system to system... when in ME1 it was established that the Reapers had taken control of the relay network and isolated each system from others in that cycle (as stated by Vigil).

Another possibility is that it's a deliberate recon because ME1 dug the series a big hole. Again.

Let's say the Reapers can take the Citadel and shut down the relay network, and still want to do that. So any all-out war with the Reapers begins with them heading for the Citadel and seizing it? The Citadel races win or they lose?

awhile back, when everything first came out, i was talking with a buddy about this... there is a possibility.

remember the reaper IFF from ME2?  well, it was still on the Normandy.  the Reapers would have still needed to use the relays, so they couldn't just shut them off, just activated something that only allowed them to use the network.

that IFF would have been the solution.

if you really wanted to keep cerberus in the game, you could even have something where the first act of the final game involved Shepard recovering it from cerberus and in the process going around to each of the major races to help them and get their support, with the second half being Shepard going on some sort of mission to the citadel to deactivate the Reaper's network security protocols (most likely with EDI's help, as she has reaper algorithms in her programming... which even gives you a convenient excuse for giving her her sex-bot body if you want)...

then your penultimate finale could involve the combined fleet attacking the citadel, get a nice big space battle with Harbinger while Shepard goes ape**** on the citadel shutting down critical Reaper control systems to weaken Harby.  with Harby's death, the Reaper's lose steam and you can have an actual ending from there.

[Aiyie]

cyrslash1974 wrote...

Aiyie wrote...

even in the current cycle we see synthetics and organics wiping each other out.  people point to the peace between geth and quarian as evidence to the contrary.  i point to them as supporting evidence.  the only reason the quarians weren't killed off by the geth was because of Shepard's influence... and even then, it is possible for Shepard to not convince the two sides to make peace on Rannoch (nobody realizes this because nobody goes into that dialgoue without enough paragon or renegade points to make things turn out the way they want).

Geth didn't want war against their creators. Legion explained this point to Shepard in ME2. The reasons the quarians weren't killed off by  the geth was (i) because of Shepard influence and (ii) the Geth themselves. Another evidence that the logic of the catalyst is now stone-age, imo.

irrelevant.

the catalyst argument wasn't that synthetics would initiate the genocide, only that the inherent conflict between synthetic and organic would result in organic genocide.

so... it doesn't matter if the geth started the war or not... all that mattered to the catalyst was the result of that war.

and, as i said, without Shepard's influence, that war would have resulted in the quarians being wiped out.

[JBPBRC]

Aiyie wrote...

cyrslash1974 wrote...

Aiyie wrote...

even in the current cycle we see synthetics and organics wiping each other out.  people point to the peace between geth and quarian as evidence to the contrary.  i point to them as supporting evidence.  the only reason the quarians weren't killed off by the geth was because of Shepard's influence... and even then, it is possible for Shepard to not convince the two sides to make peace on Rannoch (nobody realizes this because nobody goes into that dialgoue without enough paragon or renegade points to make things turn out the way they want).

Geth didn't want war against their creators. Legion explained this point to Shepard in ME2. The reasons the quarians weren't killed off by  the geth was (i) because of Shepard influence and (ii) the Geth themselves. Another evidence that the logic of the catalyst is now stone-age, imo.

irrelevant.

the catalyst argument wasn't that synthetics would initiate the genocide, only that the inherent conflict between synthetic and organic would result in organic genocide.

so... it doesn't matter if the geth started the war or not... all that mattered to the catalyst was the result of that war.

and, as i said, without Shepard's influence, that war would have resulted in the quarians being wiped out.

Actually, without Reaper interference the Quarians would've wiped the Geth out.

[EnvyTB075]

AlanC9 wrote...

Let's say the Reapers can take the Citadel and shut down the relay network, and still want to do that. So any all-out war with the Reapers begins with them heading for the Citadel and seizing it? The Citadel races win or they lose?

This is where the Reaper IFF could have been given greater purpose than just something that gets you through O4 in ME2. EDI mentions it and it never ever develops beyond "oh...thats cool, i guess".

However the reasoning behind their focused initial attack on Earth was sound, Harbinger had made it pretty damned clear that it was personal, and Shepard had done more to aggravate them than any other species (at least this is implied) in the history of everything (along with all the other reasons like their first attempt failed so they wouldn't try it again).

The problem was everything after that was just silly. Herpaderp, move gigantic space ****** into Earth orbit, thats just gonna end splendidly.

[Someone With Mass]

Calinstel wrote...
Actually, that is one of the biggist plot-holes/retcons/Lore bastardizations/whatever that destroyed the continueity of ME3 to me.  Some have argued that it was impossible for the Reapers to take the Citadel in the first wave of attacks, but, if so, how was it taken so readily near the end?
And, once taken, why were the relays NOT disabled? 

Also, just an observation, but the foreshadowing of the Catalyst on Thessa is tantamount to (due to the 100 hours of gameplay for the TRILOGY) someone yelling lookout!  Giving the person time to turn around before the baseball hits them in the head.  That may be foreshadowing to some, but to myself, it is also quit useless.

It's not like the Catalyst ignores the mass relay control system only so the Crucible can be activated and help him find a solution and decides to jeopardize everything (the fate of which ultimately rests in the hands of one man who the Catalyst has no control over), because he seems rather content with letting the cycle continue.

So I have really no idea why he didn't just cut everyone off and treated this whole cycle like a bad Monday.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 24 novembre 2012 - 04:16 .

[Aiyie]

JBPBRC wrote...

Aiyie wrote...

cyrslash1974 wrote...

Aiyie wrote...

even in the current cycle we see synthetics and organics wiping each other out.  people point to the peace between geth and quarian as evidence to the contrary.  i point to them as supporting evidence.  the only reason the quarians weren't killed off by the geth was because of Shepard's influence... and even then, it is possible for Shepard to not convince the two sides to make peace on Rannoch (nobody realizes this because nobody goes into that dialgoue without enough paragon or renegade points to make things turn out the way they want).

Geth didn't want war against their creators. Legion explained this point to Shepard in ME2. The reasons the quarians weren't killed off by  the geth was (i) because of Shepard influence and (ii) the Geth themselves. Another evidence that the logic of the catalyst is now stone-age, imo.

irrelevant.

the catalyst argument wasn't that synthetics would initiate the genocide, only that the inherent conflict between synthetic and organic would result in organic genocide.

so... it doesn't matter if the geth started the war or not... all that mattered to the catalyst was the result of that war.

and, as i said, without Shepard's influence, that war would have resulted in the quarians being wiped out.

Actually, without Reaper interference the Quarians would've wiped the Geth out.

i suppose you have evidence to back up this entirely subjective and opinionated statement?

because, as i recall from the codex and dialogue in ME2, it was pretty well established that the quarians did not have the military force necessary to guarantee victory against the geth.

and given the history between them, the odds are that the geth would have been victorious this time around, all things being equal, just like they were the first time.  in fact, considering the geth had the homefield advantage and weren't putting everythin on the table like the quarians, its even less likely that the quarians would be victorious this time around than the first time.

Modifié par Aiyie, 24 novembre 2012 - 03:59 .

[hukbum]

Aiyie wrote...

so... it doesn't matter if the geth started the war or not... all that mattered to the catalyst was the result of that war.

and, as i said, without Shepard's influence, that war would have resulted in the quarians being wiped out.

Hmm ... without Sheps influence the Geth would have been wiped out ... and to top it the quarians would have been wiped out with Reaper (Catalyst) influence. Funny, isn't it?

Modifié par hukbum, 24 novembre 2012 - 04:01 .

[AlanC9]

Aiyie wrote...
awhile back, when everything first came out, i was talking with a buddy about this... there is a possibility.

remember the reaper IFF from ME2?  well, it was still on the Normandy.  the Reapers would have still needed to use the relays, so they couldn't just shut them off, just activated something that only allowed them to use the network.

that IFF would have been the solution.

So only Normandy can fly around the relay network, right? Or can the IFF be duplicated? (ME3 established the latter, but that wouldn't necessarily be true in a rewrite.) 

As for the rest, I don't see why Harbinger would be weakened by stuff happening on the Citadel. But if you really want to contrive Shepard contributing to his destruction, I suppose people would swallow that.

It's not too bad an idea -- though wouldn't most of the Citadel fleets be destroyed trying to hold the Citadel? Or would hey be caught flat-footed? Again. 

[EnvyTB075]

Aiyie wrote...

i suppose you have evidence to back up this entirely subjective and opinionated statement?

ME3: The only reason the Geth were holding the line was due to Reaper intelligence upgrades. They were in the process of transfering any millions of individual programs into their mass data houses, which the Quarians attacked, diminishing their collective intelligence.

The reason why you board that dreadnought is because with the Reaper upgrades the Geth are too powerful. Without them, they're screwed.

Modifié par EnvyTB075, 24 novembre 2012 - 04:03 .

[Aiyie]

The problem was everything after that was just silly. Herpaderp, move gigantic space ****** into Earth orbit, thats just gonna end splendidly.

sound military tactics...

this would been kinda like us moving the manhattan project to Moscow right before Hitler invaded the USSR.

[EnvyTB075]

Aiyie wrote...

The problem was everything after that was just silly. Herpaderp, move gigantic space ****** into Earth orbit, thats just gonna end splendidly.

sound military tactics...

this would been kinda like us moving the manhattan project to Moscow right before Hitler invaded the USSR.

...well "us" meaning "you" but yeah, pretty much.

But hey, in ME3, the military isnt about strategy and tactics. Didn't you know?

Modifié par EnvyTB075, 24 novembre 2012 - 04:05 .

[JBPBRC]

Aiyie wrote...

i suppose you have evidence to back up this entirely subjective and opinionated statement?

The entire Rannoch arc of ME3 backs me up. The reason the Geth even turned to the Reapers for help was because they were desperately looking for a way to stave off extinction thanks to recent advances in Quarian technology and a massive Quarian attack that wiped out a large chunk of the Geth Consensus, effectively making all remaining Geth dumber as a result. The facts--they do not lie.

[Aiyie]

hukbum wrote...

Aiyie wrote...

so... it doesn't matter if the geth started the war or not... all that mattered to the catalyst was the result of that war.

and, as i said, without Shepard's influence, that war would have resulted in the quarians being wiped out.

Hmm ... without Sheps influence the Geth would have been wiped out ... and to top it the quarians would have been wiped out with Reaper (Catalyst) influence. Funny, isn't it?

i still don't see where people get that the geth would have lost the second morning war.  all evidence presented in the trilogy says otherwise... even without reaper influence.

the geth simply had the superior force and position, unless we're putting all our evidence on something as irrational as hope and organic will to survive.

[Someone With Mass]

By the way, how does the Catalyst know it's the catalyst for the Crucible, hence the name?

Because if he did know about the Crucible, then why the hell didn't he intervene? He only has the strongest armada in the known galaxy. There's probably no way he could have captured the Crucible and altered its design to fit his needs.

[hukbum]

Aiyie wrote...

i still don't see where people get that the geth would have lost the second morning war.  all evidence presented in the trilogy says otherwise... even without reaper influence.

They were winning. And let the Quarians life. So much for "Without us to stop it synthetics will wipe out all organics". The Geth had a chance to wipe out thier creators, but didn't do it.
Edit: Sorry - missed the "second".

Modifié par hukbum, 24 novembre 2012 - 04:11 .

[JBPBRC]

Someone With Mass wrote...

By the way, how does the Catalyst know it's the catalyst for the Crucible, hence the name?

Because if he did know about the Crucible, then why the hell didn't he intervene? He only has the strongest armada in the known galaxy. There's probably no way he could have captured the Crucible and altered its design to fit his needs.

Speaking of the Catalyst, I was hoping at the very least for him to call the Reapers something other than the Prothean name for them--Reapers. Eh, their true name was probably just something he couldn't comprehend.

[Aiyie]

AlanC9 wrote...

Aiyie wrote...
awhile back, when everything first came out, i was talking with a buddy about this... there is a possibility.

remember the reaper IFF from ME2?  well, it was still on the Normandy.  the Reapers would have still needed to use the relays, so they couldn't just shut them off, just activated something that only allowed them to use the network.

that IFF would have been the solution.

So only Normandy can fly around the relay network, right? Or can the IFF be duplicated? (ME3 established the latter, but that wouldn't necessarily be true in a rewrite.) 

As for the rest, I don't see why Harbinger would be weakened by stuff happening on the Citadel. But if you really want to contrive Shepard contributing to his destruction, I suppose people would swallow that.

It's not too bad an idea -- though wouldn't most of the Citadel fleets be destroyed trying to hold the Citadel? Or would hey be caught flat-footed? Again. 

the IFF wouldn't need to be duplicated... once the Reaper security protocols that gave them control of the relay network was shut down by Shepard and EDI's success on their citadel spec-op mission, the fleets would be free to use the network as they wanted.

well, as for why Harby could be weakened by Shep's mucking around on the citadel, we already have evidence of that from ME1... where Sovereign was weakened (his shields failed as a result of Saren's destruction post-reaperization).

i'd say, for story believability, and to set the proper atmosphere, the citadel fleets would have needed to be destroyed. 

if you really want, you could even incorporate Shep's trial into it all, by having it occur on the citadel... when the Reapers attack you could have Shepard directly helping the council to escape.

[Zardoc]

txgoldrush

I was wondering when you'd come back to cause a commotion.

Modifié par Zardoc, 24 novembre 2012 - 04:15 .

[EnvyTB075]

JBPBRC wrote...

Eh, their true name was probably just something he couldn't comprehend.

Haha......oh man i hate you right now, up feel creek without a paddle....

Modifié par EnvyTB075, 24 novembre 2012 - 04:16 .

[Aiyie]

Calinstel wrote...

Aiyie wrote...

i still don't see where people get that the geth would have lost the second morning war.  all evidence presented in the trilogy says otherwise... even without reaper influence.

the geth simply had the superior force and position, unless we're putting all our evidence on something as irrational as hope and organic will to survive.

It is clearly stated in ME3 that due to advancments by the insane Admiral Xen, the quarians did infact have a secret weapon.  A weapon that almost completely blinded the geth making thier attacks almost useless.  The quarians just had to go to the turkey shoot and not miss.

i did forget about that.

but, i don't remember hearing exactly how effective it was.  it was effective, i do remember that, but from what i remember, the quarians were still taking losses, even before the Reaper's really got involved, even having this weapon.

i suppose it all comes down to force multipliers.  the quarians had this super-weapon, but they still took losses.  the geth took greater losses, but they had a much larger force.

i tend to believe, again, based on established lore, that the geth force was so large that in spite of the quarian's weapon, the quarians would have lost eventually anyways.

perhaps not as cleanly as possible, but to the catalyst, how bloody a war was was just as irrelevant as who started the war.

"Quantity has a quality all its own."

not to mention, its all irrelevant to the base logic anyways.  even if a synthetic race does get defeated by an organic race one time... does that guarantee the same results the next time?  no, it does not.  the catalyst's solution guarantees that the problem never surfaces in the first place, which was its goal anyways. 

now that i think about it though, i stated my thesis poorly... the catalyst's goal was to eliminate the inherent conflict between organic and synthetic (as evidenced by the presentation of synthesis and control as viable options by the catalyst), the results of individual conflicts between organic and synthetic were incidental and not really all that relevant to the base validity of the methodology and its goals.

Modifié par Aiyie, 24 novembre 2012 - 04:22 .