68 réponses à ce sujet

[HolyAvenger]

Charging Atlases is definitely fine, as long as you watch out for the ground pound and stay away then. Same with Banshees and casting.

Praetorians...yeah, no, stay away.

[grayrest]

Podboq wrote...

DON'T CHARGE BANSHEES, PRAETORIANS, OR ATLASES!!!1!one!

Everything with a sync kill will do it if you're in melee range when they're walking (with the claw down for Brutes, blinking counts for Banshees) or after their sync kill tell. As such, you can safely charge when the mob is in an animation that is not the sync kill tell or when they'll be staggered (most reliable is BE on target).

Also, you will not get grabbed every time this happens. There's a difficulty-depenent chance and I believe you have an increased chance if you're leading in score but I'm not sure about that.

Commentary with the sync kill tell is in the dashes:

* Atlas - Ground Smash - Generally safe because they cycle betwen missle and cannon and they'll only sync kill if you're standing next to them after the smash or when they're switching between attacks. Charge durring the missile windup reliably staggers.

* Banshee - Forward Swipe - Only safe when casting warp balls, casting her hand of denial (no damage but, hey, shields), or doing her aoe burst (WILL sync kill when she gets down). Charging during the scream isn't immediately dangerous but the window is fairly short and the first blink coming immediately afterwards is extremely dangerous so I don't recommend it.

* Brute - Swipe (eyes glow red) - I think this is the tell. I've only been sync killed from the tell once. It's usually getting trapped in a corner and walk up to me and sync kill. Generally safe to charge since the claw up walking they like to do counts as an animation.

* Phantom - Double Slash - If you're using the class builder (you should). Make sure charge says 1000N and they're always safe to charge and they'll only not get staggered when they're in hand of denial. I consider 1000N mandatory for all vanguards because otherwise Phantoms are never safe.

* Praetorian - Double Slash - Only safe to charge when lasering. Their melee is too fast and WILL stagger you into grab if you stick around. I hate them.

* Scion - Maybe after melee? - Generally safe. I've only been grabbed once. The animation is pretty neat.

Podboq wrote...
If you're playing a fullblast novaguard:
Do charge, roll*, nova.
Don't charge, nova, die.

The most important thing is that the cooldown bonus stacks. Spam nova at the start of the match, between rounds, and when you're going through an empty room or otherwise unable to be shot. If you take Power Efficiency III and Structural Ergonomics your time outside of immunity frames is very short and you almost never need to nova cancel. Fullblast novaguard is the true novaguard.

Finally: Always shoot before you charge. When you play a vanguard, you will eventually get the charge doesn't work bug and it will probably kill you. If you shoot, you can charge again. By always shooting before you charge, you can avoid it. The get-shot-while-you-charge bug will also happen occasionally and you will wind up at your destination without shield and dead shortly after. You will die as a vanguard even if you know what you're doing, though only once or twice per match at most and mostly due to bugs or lag if you're awesome enough to off host vanguard.

Modifié par grayrest, 24 novembre 2012 - 05:59 .

[Bwnci]

Achire wrote...

Praetorians need to melee before sync killing, but their melee staggers and they can combo the melee attack into a sync kill especially on higher difficulties. Praetorians don't use melee while they are up in the air. This means that it is safe to Charge them while they shoot lasers, missiles, or are flying around in the bubble. Pay attention to when they get back on the ground, though, as they can do it very quickly and then melee you into a sync kill. Quickly back out of the melee range when they land.

Thank you, I have not been able to work them out. However they always seem to get me by silently flying behind me and taking me out Banshee style. I can almost swear I'm never meleed beforehand, it probably just happens so quickly.

Can't stand that enemies can do that, they should all have to melee you before sync-killing when they either come through ****ing walls or soar through the air without a sound.

Modifié par Bwnci, 24 novembre 2012 - 06:02 .

[sobit]

lol@OP

I FUKKEN DESTROY PHANTOMS ON GOLD WITH MY FULL BLAST NOVAGUARD!

anyone else too?

[Farosyrn]

grayrest wrote...
There's a difficulty-depenent chance and I believe you have an increased chance if you're leading in score but I'm not sure about that.

If that's true, and I've heard about it before, it's the most BS mechanic in the game - apart from the fact that differing chances to get sync killed are ridiculous, it's even less understandable to increase them for the person who is probably carrying the whole team, thus increasing the chances of a certain mission failure.

[Bwnci]

Farosyrn wrote...

grayrest wrote...
There's a difficulty-depenent chance and I believe you have an increased chance if you're leading in score but I'm not sure about that.

If that's true, and I've heard about it before, it's the most BS mechanic in the game - apart from the fact that differing chances to get sync killed are ridiculous, it's even less understandable to increase them for the person who is probably carrying the whole team, thus increasing the chances of a certain mission failure.

The enemies that sync-kill swiftly (Banshees, Praetorians) priorities the top scorer is all. At least that's what I've heard and experienced.

Modifié par Bwnci, 24 novembre 2012 - 06:37 .

[DJ Airsurfer]

Javo2357 wrote...

You can charge Banshees if they aren't phasing around the map. You can also charge Atlases and stagger them if you've got enough force I believe. And as for Phantoms, a good vanguard should always be able to take them on since you only need 1000N to stagger them, even on Platinum.

A Vanguard should always carry an Acolyte for Phantoms.

[IoeShepard]

Farosyrn wrote...

grayrest wrote...
There's a difficulty-depenent chance and I believe you have an increased chance if you're leading in score but I'm not sure about that.

If that's true, and I've heard about it before, it's the most BS mechanic in the game - apart from the fact that differing chances to get sync killed are ridiculous, it's even less understandable to increase them for the person who is probably carrying the whole team, thus increasing the chances of a certain mission failure.

Its true, as far as i know.
Its good too, because you dont have to run allover the place to find them.
Its bad, because they dont come alone.

[seireikhaan]

DJ Airsurfer wrote...

Javo2357 wrote...

You can charge Banshees if they aren't phasing around the map. You can also charge Atlases and stagger them if you've got enough force I believe. And as for Phantoms, a good vanguard should always be able to take them on since you only need 1000N to stagger them, even on Platinum.

A Vanguard should always carry an Acolyte for Phantoms.

This.  Acolyte blast + charge.  Pretty much fixes a gold phantom right there.  Reegar or properly ammo'd falcon also work, depending on personal taste and kit.

[himohillo]

NthShadow wrote...

Podboq wrote...
Stay the **** away from phantoms.

And what happened to Anakin after saying that? Yeah, you guessed it. 

[David_Lobster]

Javo2357 wrote...
Lolno. Fullblast vanguard is far better once you learn to survive with him.

Not according to Narida...

Fullblast:
595 health, 1190 shields, 1785 barrier, 1190 armor

Halfblast:
455 health, 910 shields, 1365 barrier,  910 armor

*both evolved for damange and pierce, with no amps or passives

[MP-Ryan]

Achire's advice is bang-on.

The only enemies that routinely kill my Vanguards are Banshees - when they grab me because I charged PAST them, not into them, or when charge locks onto the Banshee behind the target I was actually aiming at - and Brutes when they don't obey their own red-eyes rule (twice on host in the last two weeks). I carry an Acolyte/Hurricane combo on all my Vanguards except the Krogan and Batarian, so Phantoms aren't a problem lately either.

While I'm a fervent believer that the sync-kill mechanics need to be changed slighty, the only enemies with significant problems are the Banshees - who can teleport out of nowhere, land next to you, and pick you up with no chance to escape, and the Phantoms, who don't have to actually complete their melee to be capable of impaling you. The others are reasonably predictable.

[palmof40sorrows]

Podboq wrote...

Here are a few rules we need to abide by to repair our good name.

DON'T CHARGE BANSHEES, PRAETORIANS, OR ATLASES!!!1!one!
Unless they're sync killing someone. In which case, immediately charge and nova/grenade/shotgun/heavymelee/phasedisrupt/smash them, you'll save the day and all will rejoice.
note: Standing on an incline above or below sync killers makes you immune to sync kills.

Only charge brutes when they're about to charge. You'll swap places with them. If you learn to do this brutes will become trivial.

Stay inside the circle at all times. Dieing inside the circle and being picked up immediately is better than charging away and slowing down the hack(and making everyone hate vanguards).

If you're playing a fullblast novaguard:
Do charge, roll*, nova.
Don't charge, nova, die.

Use medigel immediately after dropping. Noone likes running across the map to pick you up. This may be the most important part of playing a vanguard.

Stay the **** away from phantoms.

*or nova cancel


Addendum;
Never apologise for 'kill stealing'. We kill stuff, and we're good at it, that's the point.

You can charge all the things, you just have to know when, like a good vanguard player would.  

[Achire]

You need to account for the fact that full nova and half-blast have different rotations. The fastest full nova rotation is 2.513s for Charge => Nova (Gold/Plat 7.5% game speed increase included) at 4 recharge stacks. The comparable rotation for half-blast is Charge Nova Nova at 4.14s. In a very bare-bones model without a weapon, ammo, mods the result is:

Full Nova
Health 1977.5 in 2.513 or 786.9 DPS
Armor 2975 in 2.513 or 1183.8 DPS
Shields 2975 in 2.513 or 1183.8 DPS
Barrier 3963.75 in 2.513 or 1577.3 DPS

Half-blast
Health 2056.25 in 4.14s or 496.7 DPS
Armor 3132.5 in 4.14s or 756.6 DPS
Shields 3132.5 in 4.14s or 756.6 DPS
Barrier 4160.63 in 4.14s or 1005.0 DPS

This is the biggest damage difference possible in favor of Full Nova, and it requires full recharge stacks to reach. As soon as you add a weapon and ammo effects, the difference becomes significantly smaller. It is, however, impossible to calculate the precice DPS with Disruptor/Incendiary since the proc chance is not known (and depends on weapon, too!).

Modifié par Achire, 24 novembre 2012 - 08:06 .

[Arppis]

I charge them all. Even Preatorians.

You just have to learn to play to pull it off. 

Modifié par Arppis, 24 novembre 2012 - 08:11 .

[MP-Ryan]

For all practical considerations, the half-blast build typically has better survivability as you get two chances to get the melee-nova-cancel right instead of one on Gold and Platinum (less of an issue for roll-cancelling).

I play both blast types and the purist in me prefers full-blast, but it also means I have to play with people who don't mind picking me up due to turrets, BS atlas rockets,etc.  Half-blast is my go-to generally on Gold or Platinum, while full-blast is probably better for silver and bronze.

Modifié par MP-Ryan, 24 novembre 2012 - 08:13 .

[grayrest]

Achire wrote...

This is the biggest damage difference possible in favor of Full Nova, and it requires full recharge stacks to reach. As soon as you add a weapon and ammo effects, the difference becomes significantly smaller.

Wouldn't the weapon add roughly the same dps to both builds?  I'm pretty sure Nova and Charge have about the same cast time so assuming the weapon is an acolyte/talon/wraith and you're taking one shot between abilities the proc rate and thus damage should be statistically the same. The percentile difference would be lower but the absolute difference would remain roughly equal.

Edit: Is there any particular reason you always mention full stacks like it's an unusual condition? I spam nova whenever I can't be shot so I assume 2-3 stacks is the minimum.

Modifié par grayrest, 24 novembre 2012 - 08:18 .

[Kentation]

 I rarely see people get sync killed. 

[Achire]

It depends on how many shots you add. It's much harder to aim a shot after a Charge without adding vulnerability time than after a Nova. If you add two shots to full nova and three to half-blast, the absolute difference would stay around the same. They're not really equivalent shots though.

I mention full stacks because it is relevant. If you're not at full stacks, the DPS is often less than half-blast when including Talon X shots.

Edit: Though there is another big issue with single target / AOE DPS here I won't go into. It's a mess in general. I can solo Platinum with half-blast. Seems good enough for me.

Modifié par Achire, 24 novembre 2012 - 08:46 .