24 réponses à ce sujet

[C Barchuk]

I played the hell outta this game when it first came out and now I'm wanting to go through it again. I'm going with a dual wielding rogue. My question is concerning specilizations and whether I should go DEX or CUN. I always thought pure cunning was the way to go. Everything I've been reading says that is more or less true as long as you go with the bard specialization. I really don't want to be a bard for roleplaying reasons. I'm having a hard time seeing my assassin as a bard. Anyways, am I better off going full dex then? Specializations would be assassin, duelist, and eventually shadow. If so, could someone direct me towards a good dex build. I've seen plenty of cunning builds. Thanks.

Modifié par C Barchuk, 25 novembre 2012 - 01:46 .

[termokanden]

Dex builds are a lot better than some people seem to think. Here's the one I used:

Cunning: 17 + 5 (from the Fade) base cunning to get the highest level of stealth
Str: same as the cunning builds - just enough to wear the highest quality light armor
Dex: everything else

Specializations: I recommend Assassin and Ranger. Don't overlook Legionnaire Scout in Awakening, it makes you tough as nails and saves you a lot of stat points. I do not recommend Duelist since you will already have high hit and defense.

Gear: Same as all the cunning builds. As much backstab damage as you can get and the two best daggers.

Talents: Same as cunning most of the way but with more points spent on device mastery as your cunning will probably be around 30 in full gear. No need to grab Lethality early, but it's still a small bonus as your cunning will be higher than your strength.

Modifié par termokanden, 25 novembre 2012 - 12:11 .

[C Barchuk]

Thanks for the feedback. I haven't played this game in a long time. The first time I went with a cunning build but didn't use or realize that bard had great synergy with cunning. As I've stated, I don't see my assassin as a bard. So that got me wondering if dexterity is the way to go. Just trying to get some general thoughts on good rogue builds that don't use bard.

[termokanden]

Well in my opinion max dex and max cunning are the two most effective builds. Dex is more survivable and less reliant on positioning but has lower damage potential.

I think it's a shame to have a cunning build without using Song of Courage because it really is that good, and you will need the extra attack rating, so definitely go with max dex, or grab a bit of extra stength along with your high dex so you can wear heavier armor.

I have played 3 rogues now, and in my experience cunning rogues are not better than dex rogues. You won't be playing a subpar rogue by focusing on something else.

Modifié par termokanden, 25 novembre 2012 - 07:31 .

[jhood_shsu]

The biggest difference in the Cun and Dex builds is the effectiveness in different play styles.

Dex are great in the mix type rogues because of the huge defense stats

Cun are the perfect "killer from the shadow" type rogue because of their lower defense but higher back stab/critical damage.

as term said, both are equally effective, just suited to different play styles.

[C Barchuk]

I definitely like the higher backstab damage but I just don't see my killer from the shadows being a bard. I'm a big roleplayer and it's tough for me to accept for an assassin type of character. Maybe I'll do a mix of the two.

[jhood_shsu]

you do realize that bards are commonly assassins right?

If you are going the back stab route then cunning is stronger, but assassin and bard are the two best specialties for this build.

If you want to do cunning with no bard, then duelist is probably the better choice.

[Ferretinabun]

While what jhood is saying is true, these are maximum efficiency builds we're talking here. A Cunning back-stab rogue might have the edge, but a Dex one is perfectly viable too. With Assassin and Duelist (Pinpoint Strike for those backstab-immune enemies) you'll be good-to-go. Get your Cunning up to 30 (including Circle bonuses) so you can be party lockpicker (and, y'know, it's useful), and with daggers and Lethality, you won't be lacking in armour-penetration anyway.

Momentum is your bread-and-butter skill. The Stealth tree will also be fairly crucial (makes you a great mage killer). Also make use of all those lovely stuns rogues get (Dirty Fighting, Riposte) to help you maximise backstab damage - esp with Coup de Grace as well. You'll also synergise extremely well with a companion who holds aggro, so don't leave camp without a tank (Alistair/Shale probably) or a mage with excellent crowd-control spells that freeze/stun/incapacitate enemies. With you on rogue duties, Lelianna will be of limited value, and Zevran will be a liability, since both you and he need careful micro-managing through combat (unless you spec him for an archer - not a totally nuts idea).

[C Barchuk]

jhood_shsu wrote...

you do realize that bards are commonly assassins right?

If you are going the back stab route then cunning is stronger, but assassin and bard are the two best specialties for this build.

If you want to do cunning with no bard, then duelist is probably the better choice.

That maybe true but still makes no sense to me. Let me sing a song before I assassinate my target. I dunno. It seems odd. I like thematic builds that make sense. Singing a little medley while killing things just doesn't do it for me for some reason. I come from the balders gate school of thought I guess where bards aren't hiding in the shadows backstabbing people. They're typically poets and song writers that play instruments. 

Is the backstab difference between a DEX build and CUNNING substantial?

Modifié par C Barchuk, 26 novembre 2012 - 02:49 .

[termokanden]

If you use Tainted Blade, Song of Courage, Lethality and Exploit Weakness, yes, cunning builds do substantially more damage on backstabs. The difference is bigger against heavily armored targets.

However, every calculation I have seen has assumed that your hit chance is 100% (which it isn't, because cunning builds have a low attack rating even when flanking) and that the monster never turns around to face you (which they often will since you are doing insane damage).

Once you are in a situation where you can't backstab, the dex rogue does substantially more damage and is often near unkillable.

[Blazomancer]

@C Barchuk - Yes, backstab damage difference is quite substantial, not so much in origins, but more in awakening, thanks to Shadow Striking.
Even if you don't want to be a bard, a cunning build with Assassin and duelist is pretty solid. SoC from another rogue, rally from your tank, heroic offense from your mage, and attack rating is never an issue.

[termokanden]

Dex rogues also get a huge damage boost in Awakening, should you choose to be an archer.

In any case, I think SoC is bit too powerful. Party-wide, stacks, has incredible synergy with fast weapons. Heck, it's even good for a dex rogue just because the base boosts are already worth it.

[C Barchuk]

Guys thanks for all the tips and suggestions. I really appreciate it. Curious, what dual wield talents do you guys recommend taking and skipping?

[Blazomancer]

It will probably depend on your playstyle. A backsabber don't really need to use activated talents much. So, in case you choose to be so, may be you would want to prioritize upto momentum, then upto riposte, then upto dual weapon expert. The remaining four can then be invested later on as wished.
Activated talents usually come in handy when you face some foe immune to backstab or stun, or say when your paralyzing options are in cooldown. Given all those talents and spells available across all classes for paralyzing and stunning, you'd most probably find a stunned foe all the time to execute coup de grace. Whatsoever, it never hurts to have punisher and whirlwind handy. Regardless of what the in-game description suggests, all the hits for punisher, whirlwind, flurry can be crits. So, if you have built up a high crit build, these activated talents will be deadlier than are supposed to.

[Ferretinabun]

Pretty much.

Also bare in mind that, unlike a fight-from-the-front dual-wield warrior, a back-stabby rogue probably won't find yourself surrounded by enemies much (that's the tank's job), so Dual Weapon Sweep and Whirlwind are of comparatively little value. Evasion and Feign Death are worth skipping too - you shouldn't be getting hit. Dual Weapon Mastery can be put off til never - better things to spend your points on. Lethality can be put off until your Cunning exceeds your Strength (which probably will be fairly early on though). Just about everything else is quite tasty.

Combat Stealth is perfect for a rogue if that's the sort of build you were looking to RP, which it sounds like it was. Deft Hands will free you from having to take another rogue (ie, Lelianna) along with you, but if you're finding yourself spoilt for choice talent-wise, you could always just skip this line and bring her anyway for the unlocking duties. It's not like she won't pull her weight in combat.

Pinpoint Strike is pretty much the whole point of the Duelist tree (combine it with Flurry/Momentum = chainsaw), so only sink points into it if you intend to get to the end, while everything in the Assassin tree is great.

[C Barchuk]

Thanks again for all the helpful tips. One last question, I hope: Is there a particular order that I should do quests? With all the DLC content, my map is full of places to go. I just left Lorthering. I went ahead and decided to tackle the Warden's Keep. But so far I'm having a tough time wondering if this area is too difficult for me. Do you have to be a certain level before you do some of these quests? I simply can't remember. Thanks

[termokanden]

Broken Circle is by far the best quest to start with. It's not particularly hard, the forms you gain later in it make up for your low level and missing abilities, and you get a total of 21 stat points in the Fade. But there's more: You can get Wynne, so you can have a healer with you for the rest of the game.

As soon as you have enough gold, you'll want to head over to Orzammar and buy The Rose's Thorn. No need to complete the quests there right away. Just get the dagger. It's the best in the whole game.

Modifié par termokanden, 27 novembre 2012 - 06:16 .

[Blazomancer]

There is no particular order or level requirements for doing quests. As Termokanden mentioned, you can just jump all around buying stuff without commiting yourself to the questline.
Although the enemies do scale differently in different areas, i wouldn't think you'd have any problem with following any sequence you want, as you've played the game before.

[C Barchuk]

Yea I'm running with my rogue, Alstair, Morrigan, and my dog Reginald. Oh, is it better to save my gold as opposed to buying random things here and there? I know I need to buy all the tomes and such.

[keeneaow]

Anyone with 1 point in steal get Slim's quests, provided he has that point when first enter the city

[Ferretinabun]

C Barchuk wrote...

Yea I'm running with my rogue, Alstair, Morrigan, and my dog Reginald. Oh, is it better to save my gold as opposed to buying random things here and there? I know I need to buy all the tomes and such.

Items sell for less than you bought them, and money can be a little tight in Origins (as opposed to Awakenings, where you'll be seeing more gold than severed Darkspawn limbs), so buying stuff every time you see something even slightly better can be a waste of money. Then again, it's not quite so tight that you should agonise over every penny. My advice is to meta-game, find the few ideal pieces of equipment you want (Rose's Thorn? Dead Thaig dagger? Felon's Coat? Healm of Honnleath? A few suggestions, but lots to choose from. Whatever you fancy) And save up for them.

Oh, and Bodahn usually doesn't give very good prices, so consider selling your loot elsewhere.

Also, all this goes out the window if you have the DLC equipment that you start the game with like Vestments of the Seer or The Reaper's Cudgel. Those things can be sold for a King's Ransom and you'll never have to think twice about shelling out cash by the cartload.

[C Barchuk]

Where are these DLC weapons you're referring to? The only piece I started with was the blood armor.

[keeneaow]

wikipedia usually knows where they are, google it