325 réponses à ce sujet

[ste100]

C'mon people... they care. Of course they care.

[ShadyKat]

Only time will tell. Make no mistake, Bioware should not do everything fans want(most fans have no clue what they really want), but they should at least try to get a feel of what we want. Most fans want the next ME to be like the first game. As terms of setting and feel, I agree. Action wise it needs to be more like ME3. Fans want a action rpg, not a shooter with a few stats thrown in.

[Ihatebadgames]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Ihatebadgames wrote...

I don't hate EA as much as I use to.On another forum one of the guys said they bought the new shooter that Ea put out that came out in the last week or two(COD??).That his brother had worked on it and had borrowed a pick of this guys friend that was killed in Afghanistan.Well this guy is playing and who did he run into?yep his friend.Said he bawled for an hour and will probably never finish the game now but it's neat that if he wants to see his friend he is in the game,alive and well.

That's a terrible story!

I don't think it's terrible.It's maybe sad,but also neat.His brother cared enough to slip his friend into the game as a sort of memorial.Did not tell his brother his friend was in the game,which is probably what caused the emotional melt down the guy was talking about.But at the same time it's neat his friend is always going to be in the game to pal around with.As good as the real thing?No but it's as close as humans can get.
On topic:I don't think they will listen as for months fans were talking about their hopes in the game,and those same fans were slammed to the ground.It's like a quilt.They did one thing that ticked people off then another and another ect.. ect.. till finally you have this huge ugly quilt that no one likes and most hate.But they can't pick out the single thing that ticks them off the most that would change their opinion.

[LinksOcarina]

Ithurael wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Source of the article please? I would like to know when it was posted, where, and by who before I even trust it. 

I think this was the ea_spouse (erica hoffman) whistle blower article

clickity

So an anonymous post made in 2004 justifies the practices of a company in 2012, when they have a different regime and corporate structure in the intern? 

I don't discount that this may have happened, but I fail to see it being relevant to today in any way. 

[Iakus]

ShadyKat wrote...

Only time will tell. Make no mistake, Bioware should not do everything fans want(most fans have no clue what they really want), but they should at least try to get a feel of what we want. Most fans want the next ME to be like the first game. As terms of setting and feel, I agree. Action wise it needs to be more like ME3. Fans want a action rpg, not a shooter with a few stats thrown in.

Very true.

Sadly I see very very little of that.  Just tossing out "tell us what you think" isn't enough.  You have to dig into why people want this stuff.  Why do people like this and hate that?  Might turn out they don't hate a particular thing, but an aspect of it that can be fixed or improved.   

[David7204]

The endings sucked. But 95% of the suggestions I've seen here have been moronic. 100% of the 'rewrites' I've read have been just as bad or worse as the original ending.

[Binary_Helix 1]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Unsurprisingly, you miss the point of contention.

Your point was seniors have more experince with corporate abuse and it's my view that they don't.

Little old ladies are conned by people they know, like, and trust. That happens to be family and friends.

Just because we see things differently doesn't mean I "don't get it" so please come off your high horse.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Likewise unsurprising, you don't understand your fallacy of extremes. Not being the worst company in America doesn't mean that conduct was harmless.

I'm not going to dig through all your posts here to nitpiick a quote but don't kid yourself. You either didn't know or care about EA's abusive practices. They're more than qualified to be on that list given their treatment of empolyees alone.

Modifié par Binary_Helix 1, 27 novembre 2012 - 01:39 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Unsurprisingly, you miss the point of contention.

Your point was seniors have more experince with corporate abuse and it's my view that they don't.

Little old ladies are conned by people they know, like, and trust. That happens to be family and friends.

Just because we see things differently doesn't mean I "don't get it" so please come off your high horse.

Tell you what: I'll come off the high horse when you let yourself out of the closet you stuffed yourself into with this argument.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Likewise unsurprising, you don't understand your fallacy of extremes. Not being the worst company in America doesn't mean that conduct was harmless.

I'm not going to dig through all your posts here to nitpiick a quote but don't kid yourself. You either didn't know or care about EA's abusive practices. They're more than qualified to be on that list given their treatment of empolyees alone.

This isn't a list: it's a claim that they are the worst company in America. Singular: most harmful, most abusive. Compared to employers which have actually killed people, impoverished tens of thousands, or put their employees under far more dangerous conditions.

There's a wonderful thing I have that you have repeatedly failed to demonstrate, and that is 'perspective': the wonderful ability to discern 'bad' from 'worse' without devolving into absolutes.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 27 novembre 2012 - 01:53 .

[Binary_Helix 1]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

This seems to be a 'no.' How pitiful.

Where you see bias I don't.

That's why it's pitiful.

How old are you again? In the adult world people disagree. Grow up.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

They do, however, require intellectual rigor to be credible. Considering you are currently and repeatedly arguing that it is unreasonable to expect you to make an informed argument or support your own claims, you're not particularly credible right now.

You're getting very tiresome.  Your snark reeks of a pompous, long winded, pretentious jerk.  That's all I see from you.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

You have yet to support your claim on what EA's expectations actually were.

Not really. Articles on video games are pretty standard for pop-culture sections. The LA very article you link has an entire sub-category called 'games' with articles on video games of interest.

Moreover, the article doesn't support your claim of unrealistic expectations. It calls it 'ambitious' and 'a gamble', even 'a great risk', but none of these are the same as unrealistic expectations (the accepted tradeoff of any risk is that it might fail), nor do they posit that they intend to overthrow WoW.

Now I know how far deluded you are. The money and resources spent were astronomical. The game is an MMO and hell it even looks like WoW. Apparently you can't put two and two together unless a confession comes straight from the CEO of EA and even then you''ll babble on about "misinterpretation". You're a lost cause lacking even basic common sense. Stop posting.

Modifié par Binary_Helix 1, 27 novembre 2012 - 01:54 .

[Binary_Helix 1]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Tell you what: I'll come off the high horse when you let yourself out of the closet you stuffed yourself into with this argument.

You're not on a high horse. You actually have your head so far up your ass you've gone blind from anal posioning.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

This isn't a list: it's a claim that they are the worst company in America. Singular: most harmful, most abusive. Compared to employers which have actually killed people, impoverished tens of thousands, or put their employees under far more dangerous conditions.

There's a wonderful thing I have that you have repeatedly failed to demonstrate, and that is 'perspective': the wonderful ability to discern 'bad' from 'worse' without devolving into absolutes.

Translation; EA won a dubious honor and you're butt hurt about it.

Modifié par Binary_Helix 1, 27 novembre 2012 - 02:00 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

This seems to be a 'no.' How pitiful.

Where you see bias I don't.

That's why it's pitiful.

How old are you again? In the adult world people disagree. Grow up.

Old enough to be able to recognize authorial bias even when it agrees with me.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

They do, however, require intellectual rigor to be credible. Considering you are currently and repeatedly arguing that it is unreasonable to expect you to make an informed argument or support your own claims, you're not particularly credible right now.

You're getting very tiresome.  Your snark reeks of a pompous, long winded, pretentious jerk.  That's all I see from you.

This entire thread has been a litany of you not seeing things that would counter your opinions. Why should I be any different.

Now I know how far deluded you are. The money and resources spent were astronomical. The game is an MMO and hell it even looks like WoW. Apparently you can't put two and two together unless a confession comes straight from the CEO of EA and even then you''ll babble on about "misinterpretation". You're a lost cause lacking even basic common sense. Stop posting.

Why? It could be I lack 'common sense'... or it could be that you've constantly changed the argument and refused to support you claims because your claims lack support.

Considering you've completely abandoned any pretense of argument to do nothing but attack...

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 27 novembre 2012 - 02:03 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Tell you what: I'll come off the high horse when you let yourself out of the closet you stuffed yourself into with this argument.

You're not on a high horse. You actually have your head so far up your ass you've gone blind from anal posioning.

Can't keep your claims straight, can you?

Dean_the_Young wrote...

This isn't a list: it's a claim that they are the worst company in America. Singular: most harmful, most abusive. Compared to employers which have actually killed people, impoverished tens of thousands, or put their employees under far more dangerous conditions.

There's a wonderful thing I have that you have repeatedly failed to demonstrate, and that is 'perspective': the wonderful ability to discern 'bad' from 'worse' without devolving into absolutes.

Translation; EA won a dubious honor and you're butt hurt about it.

Correction: there are worse companies than EA. A poorly constructed popularity poll is not a compelling argument for an objective claim.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 27 novembre 2012 - 02:06 .

[Ithurael]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Ithurael wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Source of the article please? I would like to know when it was posted, where, and by who before I even trust it. 

I think this was the ea_spouse (erica hoffman) whistle blower article

clickity

So an anonymous post made in 2004 justifies the practices of a company in 2012, when they have a different regime and corporate structure in the intern? 

I don't discount that this may have happened, but I fail to see it being relevant to today in any way. 

When it came out in 2004 it was mind blowing and did lead to many MANY changes in EA. Though I strongly doubt that EA is the devil it was in 2004 I would say that it has priorities to satisfy the shareholders over the product of the game. Though I doubt they will ship a game that is half finsihed, I will say that they want to keep deadlines in order to keep the $$ coming in for each fiscal quarter. Mainly it is a question of priorities. They want $$ so they make games, gamers live in a world that they think game designers want to make games so they need money.

Though, Ms Hoffman has stated that EA is slowly starting to slip back into its old habits.

For the record, I will say that EA is not my favorite company, and I do strongly believe that EA had its deadlines forced onto ME3 to ship it out by the end of its fiscal quarter. When a product isn't finished, it isn't finished IMO. but, the team did the best they could.

[Binary_Helix 1]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Old enough to be able to recognize authorial bias even when it agrees with me.

You haven't actually posted any links whatsoever (except what I already posted) not sure who or what agrees with you.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

This entire thread has been a litany of you not seeing things that would counter your opinions. Why should I be any different.

Disagreement and condescension are different matters.

Dean_the_Young wrote...Considering you've completely abandoned any pretense of argument to do nothing but attack...

There really isn't any more point to discuss or constructively engage with you. You've been belittling me for a while now.

Modifié par Binary_Helix 1, 27 novembre 2012 - 07:51 .

[Rich_tea]

Bioware would be mad to not be listening to fans right now.

Regarding the ME3 ending specifically, if you try to make some bold artistic statement then you should be able to defend it or at the very least be able to explain what the hell you were thinking. Instead of responding to fan questions about abandonment of several central themes, violation of lore and loss of narrative cohesion we got the whole slippery slope, death of art, dangerous precedent, just being a silly entitled gamer, etc message.

Bioware (Hudson/Walters) knows they ****ed up. The only reason they dug their heels in as hard as they did regarding the ending comes from some conviction that admitting any kind of failure will hurt their business and careers more.

It's safe to say that the majority of people still posting here now are unable to let it go and will always think Hudson personally killed their dog or something, despite him also being the reason we have ME to begin with. Bioware DO care about fans, and they are listening. While it is cold comfort in the wake of the ME3 debacle, I doubt they will make the same mistakes twice. Widespread fan resentment and poor DLC sales alone have seen to that.

ME4 will most likely be solid and most certainly will have a kickass MP mode, which is all I care about.

[Binary_Helix 1]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Can't keep your claims straight, can you?

Tried to give you the benefit of the doubt but your idiocy is resilient.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Correction: there are worse companies than EA. A poorly constructed popularity poll is not a compelling argument for an objective claim.

Translation; still butt hurt.

Modifié par Binary_Helix 1, 27 novembre 2012 - 02:21 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Old enough to be able to recognize authorial bias even when it agrees with me.

You havn't actually posted any links whatsoever (except what I already posted) not sure who or what agrees with you.

Possibly because that's not what that thread of quotes was discussing.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

This entire thread has been a litany of you not seeing things that would counter your opinions. Why should I be any different?

Disagreement and condescension are different matters.

And your conduct over these past pages has turned the first to the second, as you retreated from constructive challenges to justify your arguments and turned and fled down tangeants and turned towards attacks.

There really isn't any more point to discuss or constructively engage with you. You've been belittling me for a while now.

No, it's actually just recently in the last few posts, after a good deal of exasperation at your own attempts at attacking me. It's just your paranoia that makes the earlier criticism seem like mockery.

But if you truly do think there's no point in replying, as you've said a couple of times now... you're always free to walk the walk and leave. Not, mind you, that I expect you to be able to do that now after the way you previously tried to end this exchange. Which leads you to a delimma:

If you do reply to this or any other post with me, you'll be undermining your own claims about not having in point in discussing anything with me.

If you don't reply after this post, you'll be doing so without the last word and you'll fear you'll be seen as running away from an argument you couldn't even keep your temper in, let alone defend.

Which path will you take, I wonder? Will you make yourself a liar and continue, or will you suffer a bruised ego and go silent?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 27 novembre 2012 - 02:35 .

[Teleraine]

Ok so to stick with the OP question does BW care about fan ideas for ME4

I think Bioware cares more about showing the perception that they care even if they do or do not its not really noticeable until ME4 releases.

Its been quite easy to see the shifting stance of the company before and after the ME3 and previously the DA2 issues in regards to PR and being transparent or at least less opaque.

Unfortunately for Bioware while it can take years to build a solid reputation tearing one down is pretty fast and brutal in the day of social media. Coupled with inherent gamer distrust of EA and Bioware are at a low ebb.

In my opinion they do but as has been mentioned only to an extent and that is perfectly fine as it is a practical and sound business strategy no to go all the way overboard. Still the damage is done and falling sales, fewer preorders, lacklustre dlc are undeniable signs of decline.

In the end I think it will boil down to how much fans and customers trust what Bioware and EA actually say just from trawling the boards, its very clear that a bad experience lingers far longer then a better one as expressed by fans to other fans and to bioware.in not uncommon displays of vitriol.

Oh to miss the days of Fans and not Fanboys and to disagreements instead of outright slagging matches

Modifié par Teleraine, 27 novembre 2012 - 02:42 .

[TheRealJayDee]

drayfish wrote...

So, I guess my ultimate question is: Why were only the intolerant zealot Shepards rewarded in the end?

[Iakus]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

drayfish wrote...

So, I guess my ultimate question is: Why were only the intolerant zealot Shepards rewarded in the end?

+1

[Binary_Helix 1]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Possibly because that's not what that thread of quotes was discussing.

It's not my problem you can't convey yourself properly.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And your conduct over these past pages has turned the first to the second, as you retreated from constructive challenges to justify your arguments and turned and fled down tangeants and turned towards attacks.

I've more than adequately explained my position and provided some sources as well. I had you figured out pretty early. Like I said originally you set the burden of proof so high nobody can match it and then feel righteous and justified later.

Dean_the_Young wrote...No, it's actually just recently in the last few posts, after a good deal of exasperation at your own attempts at attacking me. It's just your paranoia that makes the earlier criticism seem like mockery.

But if you truly do think there's no point in replying, as you've said a couple of times now... you're always free to walk the walk and leave. Not, mind you, that I expect you to be able to do that now after the way you previously tried to end this exchange. Which leads you to a delimma:

If you do reply to this or any other post with me, you'll be undermining your own claims about not having in point in discussing anything with me.

If you don't reply after this post, you'll be doing so without the last word and you'll fear you'll be seen as running away from an argument you couldn't even keep your temper in, let alone defend.

Which path will you take, I wonder? Will you make yourself a liar and continue, or will you suffer a bruised ego and go silent?

There is no point to constructively engage with you. Apparently you missed that part like so much else you can't grasp.

However there is plenty of amusement to be had at your expense so why deprive myself of the pleasure? That's cruel.

Modifié par Binary_Helix 1, 27 novembre 2012 - 02:58 .

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

How about everyone here takes their damn white tighties off their heads and stop trying to be an Internet warrior for one moment and try to get back on topic before a mod locks it?

[LinksOcarina]

 

Ithurael wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Ithurael wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...
Source of the article please? I would like to know when it was posted, where, and by who before I even trust it. 

I think this was the ea_spouse (erica hoffman) whistle blower article

clickity

So an anonymous post made in 2004 justifies the practices of a company in 2012, when they have a different regime and corporate structure in the intern? 

I don't discount that this may have happened, but I fail to see it being relevant to today in any way. 

When it came out in 2004 it was mind blowing and did lead to many MANY changes in EA. Though I strongly doubt that EA is the devil it was in 2004 I would say that it has priorities to satisfy the shareholders over the product of the game. Though I doubt they will ship a game that is half finsihed, I will say that they want to keep deadlines in order to keep the $$ coming in for each fiscal quarter. Mainly it is a question of priorities. They want $$ so they make games, gamers live in a world that they think game designers want to make games so they need money.

Though, Ms Hoffman has stated that EA is slowly starting to slip back into its old habits.

For the record, I will say that EA is not my favorite company, and I do strongly believe that EA had its deadlines forced onto ME3 to ship it out by the end of its fiscal quarter. When a product isn't finished, it isn't finished IMO. but, the team did the best they could.

It's funny, because John Riccitello is supposedly not well liked by the shareholders of EA because of his strategies since his tenure began in 2007, which including the diversifying process, the partners program, the transition to gaming as a service, and the fact that he is thinking ahead more than thinking about now, which causes a LOT more risks and headaches for board members. And what I mean by that is the investments into new tech, speculative markets, and next gen developments, I.E, costing them more money in the short term for long term-stability. 

I honestly think the deadline aspect is a misnomer too. After all, Mass Effect 3 did get delayed by six months before release as well. So even if the game was not as finished as they hoped, it seems unlikely that they were married to a deadline set in stone. And considering March is the end of the fiscal year of 2011, it would make no sense for EA to try to finish the year out with a bang when they knew their income was going to take a hit regardless of what is released then. Plus they were already in the black for revenue that year, although a strong finish does soften the blow I guess. I don't know I am just speculating at this point. 

As an aside, the context for the Hoffman interview from Gamasutra never explicitly states EA is where the horror stories are coming from. Hoffman is talking about the industry as a whole. At least that is how the interview read to me in terms of its context. If that is the case, again that was in 2008, and that is not a guarentee that crunch time is that hectic still either. 

I know it is a bit prudent to ask guys like Allan this, but I am sure they can vouch for themselves and say that EA is not shafting them the way say Team Bondi was imploded by Rockstar and Brendan McNamara. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 27 novembre 2012 - 03:26 .

[Reth Shepherd]

LinksOcarina wrote...

 

Ithurael wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Ithurael wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...
Source of the article please? I would like to know when it was posted, where, and by who before I even trust it. 

I think this was the ea_spouse (erica hoffman) whistle blower article

clickity

So an anonymous post made in 2004 justifies the practices of a company in 2012, when they have a different regime and corporate structure in the intern? 

I don't discount that this may have happened, but I fail to see it being relevant to today in any way. 

When it came out in 2004 it was mind blowing and did lead to many MANY changes in EA. Though I strongly doubt that EA is the devil it was in 2004 I would say that it has priorities to satisfy the shareholders over the product of the game. Though I doubt they will ship a game that is half finsihed, I will say that they want to keep deadlines in order to keep the $$ coming in for each fiscal quarter. Mainly it is a question of priorities. They want $$ so they make games, gamers live in a world that they think game designers want to make games so they need money.

Though, Ms Hoffman has stated that EA is slowly starting to slip back into its old habits.

For the record, I will say that EA is not my favorite company, and I do strongly believe that EA had its deadlines forced onto ME3 to ship it out by the end of its fiscal quarter. When a product isn't finished, it isn't finished IMO. but, the team did the best they could.

It's funny, because John Riccitello is supposedly not well liked by the shareholders of EA because of his strategies since his tenure began in 2007, which including the diversifying process, the partners program, the transition to gaming as a service, and the fact that he is thinking ahead more than thinking about now, which causes a LOT more risks and headaches for board members. And what I mean by that is the investments into new tech, speculative markets, and next gen developments, I.E, costing them more money in the short term for long term-stability. 

I honestly think the deadline aspect is a misnomer too. After all, Mass Effect 3 did get delayed by six months before release as well. So even if the game was not as finished as they hoped, it seems unlikely that they were married to a deadline set in stone. And considering March is the end of the fiscal year of 2011, it would make no sense for EA to try to finish the year out with a bang when they knew their income was going to take a hit regardless of what is released then. Plus they were already in the black for revenue that year, although a strong finish does soften the blow I guess. I don't know I am just speculating at this point. 

As an aside, the context for the Hoffman interview from Gamasutra never explicitly states EA is where the horror stories are coming from. Hoffman is talking about the industry as a whole. At least that is how the interview read to me in terms of its context. If that is the case, again that was in 2008, and that is not a guarentee that crunch time is that hectic still either. 

I know it is a bit prudent to ask guys like Allan this, but I am sure they can vouch for themselves and say that EA is not shafting them the way say Team Bondi was imploded by Rockstar and Brendan McNamara. 

Bioware asked for more time; got it. Needed yet more time, asked for it...didn't get it. I'll also point out that according to the Final Hours app, the ending was written during the final months of the game's creation. Dunno about you, but I see a correlation here.

[Shermos]

Syroel13 wrote...

I believe they are.
You can easily claim any company as being money grabbing for whatever reasons but let us review.

We hated the ending, they tried to fix it, for free. Some may not have it but they tried.

The entire community asked for Omega, boom it is out on tuesday.

On the multiplayer side of things, every single DLC has been free. We have collectors, and a biotic god per request.

For previous games. Every complaint about ME1 was fixed.
-better combat
-No elevators
-Graphics
-NO annoying mako journeys
-More facial expressions

And same from Me2-Me3

I think they care alot, I think EA however are money grabbing. But bioware has my utmost respect. No other developement company would try to fix their mistakes on the ending and give it for free.

Oh and lets not forget one thing though. This is THEIR game. THEIR story, THEIR franchise. I mean you go to work everyday doing a job you want to do and make a universe you want to make. We arent game developers, we dont know what works and what dosent. So if they left out some stuff that fans wanted I.E andersons ectended dialogue maybe there was a reason behind it.

This. Nice to see thoughtful people here.