325 réponses à ce sujet

[hiraeth]

ME859 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

corporal doody wrote...

they wouldnt be asking if they werent atleast interested.

EC, Omega, and A LOT of MP stuff suggests they seriously do

Ok so where is Harbinger speaking, Andersons cut dialog back in, a revamped Earth mission, starbrat gone or at least that scene being good, reunion with squad in destory and closure? Because those where very wanted and did not show up.

See the questions about getting a sequel or a prequel make those oversights in the Extended Cut even bigger head scratchers.  After EC was released I hated the fact that they kept the vague breathe scene especially in a DLC whose expressed purpose was to provde clarity and closure.  Not that I was resting my hat on it, but I figured they had a plan for the next Mass Effect game and had to keep that scene in tact.  Truth was they hadn't even decided what the next game would be about.  

I really hope they revisit the ending again one day to take into account all of the above metioned wishes of the fans.  That or hopefully a really skilled programer is able to create a quality mod but I'm not holding my breath on either.  

It's a shame, especially after recently competeing Mass Effect 1 and 2 that the third one wasn't able to build on the previous 2 interations of the game in terms of story telling.  Especially in an industry that seems to be getting worse and worse at telling stories even though theres a huge demand for these types of games.  

agreed. and they've also already started production on ME4..."you *really* don't have prequel vs. sequel decided on and you're already in production? really?"

i know it's possible to start production on something without having storyline finalized, but i share a lot of the doubtful sentiments echoed here

[Allan Schumacher]

crimzontearz wrote...

sure, now please explain to me exactly why after being asked numerous times to at least expand on Living Shepards fate post the breath scene all we got was "headcanon it people, using your imagination" or worse "for all you know that is his last breath :trollface:"

no really, because NO ONE ASKED TO CHANGE THAT....only to confirm something

Adding additional context is a change.

Absolutely i do.  EC only reinforced it.It gave me the impression that
our suggestions were paid attention to like the husband in a sitcom
listens to his wife:  absently nodding his head while watching the game
on tv, then ending up with only a vague idea of what was actually
discussed.

To be clear, there was no unified voice for why people disliked the endings.  So if you're using the terms like "we" and "our" in response to the EC, you've completely ignored the people that were, in fact, satisfied with the extended cut.

As someone that was following up on the feedback on my own purely out of curiosity, there were 3 different camps that I saw.  People often overlapped somewhat into other camps as well, or even all 3, but they were essentially:

- Those that wanted a happy ending (they disliked how the ending was a downer.  THey didn't feel like they won, wanted to end up with their Love Interest, etc.)
- Those that wanted some level of closure (They were curious what happens in the aftermath?  Is the galaxy destroyed?  what happens to the ships still at Sol?  I have a lot of questions about the end!)
- Those that found the Catalyst to be absurd.  (Why should I believe him?  It seems like we have to give in to him?  Why is there no other way but to utilize the catalyst?  Etc.)

This is a bit simplified but I had written about it quite a bit shortly after I had played the game.  In my experience, the level of closure was easily the most frequently occurring issue.  Followed somewhat closely by the lack of happy ending.  This involves reading feedback on the BSN, as well as a variety of other sites, comments made on various articles about the ending, and mountains of posts on twitter.


On these very forums, you'd see a post in response to the EC that was "THANK YOU SO MUCH!" right beside a "WTF were you even listening to us?  This isn't what we wanted at all!!"


This idea that consensus existed was incorrect.  It happens with more than just ME3's ending too.  Project Eternity, for example, had everyone believing there was consensus over what people liked about the old IE games.  Until they went to the Obsidian message boards and the various things people didn't like about the older games started conflicting en masse with what many other people felt.

[Allan Schumacher]

agreed. and they've also already started production on ME4..."you *really* don't have prequel vs. sequel decided on and you're already in production? really?"

The upcoming Mass Effect is not in production. It is in preproduction. Many of the staff are just now getting introduced to the engine, and there's going to be prototyping of all sorts of game ideas and the types of things Frostbite can and cannot do, what tools they'll need and so forth.

[Allan Schumacher]

So what if it draws the internet based? Should we have polls asking senior citizens their opinion on EA now? LOL, no.

You've actually just admitted that the poll suffers from random sample bias and is not actually reflective of anything.

[David7204]

Why was the next game announced so early?

[Fawx9]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

sure, now please explain to me exactly why after being asked numerous times to at least expand on Living Shepards fate post the breath scene all we got was "headcanon it people, using your imagination" or worse "for all you know that is his last breath :trollface:"

no really, because NO ONE ASKED TO CHANGE THAT....only to confirm something

Adding additional context is a change.

Absolutely i do.  EC only reinforced it.It gave me the impression that
our suggestions were paid attention to like the husband in a sitcom
listens to his wife:  absently nodding his head while watching the game
on tv, then ending up with only a vague idea of what was actually
discussed.

To be clear, there was no unified voice for why people disliked the endings.  So if you're using the terms like "we" and "our" in response to the EC, you've completely ignored the people that were, in fact, satisfied with the extended cut.

As someone that was following up on the feedback on my own purely out of curiosity, there were 3 different camps that I saw.  People often overlapped somewhat into other camps as well, or even all 3, but they were essentially:

- Those that wanted a happy ending (they disliked how the ending was a downer.  THey didn't feel like they won, wanted to end up with their Love Interest, etc.)
- Those that wanted some level of closure (They were curious what happens in the aftermath?  Is the galaxy destroyed?  what happens to the ships still at Sol?  I have a lot of questions about the end!)
- Those that found the Catalyst to be absurd.  (Why should I believe him?  It seems like we have to give in to him?  Why is there no other way but to utilize the catalyst?  Etc.)

This is a bit simplified but I had written about it quite a bit shortly after I had played the game.  In my experience, the level of closure was easily the most frequently occurring issue.  Followed somewhat closely by the lack of happy ending.  This involves reading feedback on the BSN, as well as a variety of other sites, comments made on various articles about the ending, and mountains of posts on twitter.


On these very forums, you'd see a post in response to the EC that was "THANK YOU SO MUCH!" right beside a "WTF were you even listening to us?  This isn't what we wanted at all!!"


This idea that consensus existed was incorrect.  It happens with more than just ME3's ending too.  Project Eternity, for example, had everyone believing there was consensus over what people liked about the old IE games.  Until they went to the Obsidian message boards and the various things people didn't like about the older games started conflicting en masse with what many other people felt.

Allan be fair, they added a hell of a lot of context for green space magic, the beam run, and a bit extra for control (split ending based on personality). All of which would fall under a change as per the above. The fact that it wasn't done for one of Destroy's most requested clarifications felt out of place.

Modifié par Fawx9, 26 novembre 2012 - 05:10 .

[brian t]

Blue Liara wrote...

Does anyone really believe that Bioware really cares about what fans think for ME4?  

After the debacle that was the ending to ME3 and how Bioware and EA handled the whole thing. I find it a tough time really believing that Bioware and Casey Hudson are doing anything other than paying lips service and covering themselves. 

For example, the latest is that Hudson is asking fans if they would prefer a sequel or a prequel. Now I hope this is a genuine question being asked and not just lip service. For if Hudson and the Bioware team have already started making a ME prequel and it turns out that more people wanted a sequel. How are we going to really know. Its not really giving us a choice. 

However, it does give Bioware the ability to say look we listened to fans the whole way through we care. Then do whatever they want. 

Maybe I'm being too synical. I hope I am. I really hope Casey Hudson actually listens to fans and does not make some awful Deus Ex series again but if I'm honnest I just don't believe it. 

The dissapointment of the original ending, then the awful extra ending. How Bioware handled it. Ugh havent thought about it in so long and now as I write this I get more and more annoyed and I just don't believe that Bioware or Hudson care about the fans feedback.

Again. I hope I am wrong. But I doubt it.

The problem is that no matter which way they go some people won't like it like if they do a sequel and some people wanted a prequel so wither way they can't win with the fanbase

[yukon fire]

Well Allan, I'd love to hear why it was such a *great* idea to turn what was Mass Effect into a non face importing, auto dialogued, linear game that required you to play MP or else content was removed from the game, and how will such things be implemented into Dragon Age?

[Allan Schumacher]

Allan be fair, they added a hell of a lot of context for green space magic, the beam run, and a bit extra for control (split ending based on personality). All of which would fall under a change as per the above. The fact that it wasn't done for one of Destroy's most requested clarifications felt out of place.

They did add a lot (and yes, it's all changes). The entire EC was a change that was highly requested by a lot of people. Shepard's scene may feel out of place, but I'm not privy to the motivations for why they decided to not change that particular event. Maybe they just liked it that way? I don't know.

[Jadebaby]

So why was closure for Shepard in destroy ignored in EC?

[Jadebaby]

David7204 wrote...

Why was the next game announced so early?

lol I can answer this.

They released it when they did to give the fans hope that there is something more coming from Mass Effect verse. They felt if they didn't make any large announcement when the doctors retired. Conspiracy theories would start about MEverse and BW going down the drain. It's the same reason they opened discussion of DA3.

ME4 and DA3 were announced when they were to try and overshadow the doctors retirement, basically.

Modifié par Jade8aby88, 26 novembre 2012 - 05:43 .

[Ihatebadgames]

 Allen sir,Let's see where this goes.
I've got all 3 ME games.Many Shepards on each and many Shepards erased from each.
 Before 3 came out I had spent weeks/months getting the perfect Shep male and female ready with my older Sheps for the game to make sure I got the best ending.I still have a female in 2 talking to Mouse and can't bring her forward due to my feelings on the ending,a male (I think) is stuck in 1 for the same reason.
I was first upset when we were told "No multiplayer" we're not working on multiplayer(but the other side of the house was)I personally loath multiplayer and feel like if I buy a game(no matter how great a single player game it is.)that has multiplayer,my money is saying make more multiplayer.I refuse to support MP.No need to go over all the miss quotes and fansarestupid biowaresoldoutdevelopersareliars.It was a bad time to be a ME fan/customer.
For three games we get Saren was wrong,TIM was wrong then for the really missed up ending we get to agree with them.I always pick Hacketts how we win this thing is killing Reapers.I've only finished the game 2-3 times.Why play it more than once if I don't like the endings?Checking  the fish.
As a old fart(during the "we can't get the ending we want" mega thread that was murdered I found out only 2 people were older than me.that admitted to being old anyway.)I don't like being put in the same group as fanboys,children in diapers or can't let go.Don't like being told one thing while reading between the lines I see something else.So I left the forum for awhile and took some time off.
I agree you can't please everyone and if you try you end up pleasing no one.Also there are people that will lie on polls just to mess up something that other people enjoy.My favorite games for relaxation are hard core RPGs and TBS.How many of them come out a year?Very very few.I'm really picky about the games I buy.
To me the endings were a major let down after trying to get Shepards that did it all and found everything for the final game only to see new players who like multiplayer and online shooters get a easier ending and cheaper game.(Cheaper in that they only bought the last one)
Of the three the first Mass Effect was and is my favorite.
I know what I'd like to see in 4(Why a ME4?)just don't think they are really interested in what we want.
Always wondered what a wall of text would look like if I wrote it out.
The above is opinion and no has to agree with it.I don't agree with other opinions.

[Ihatebadgames]

Ihatebadgames wrote...

 Allen sir,Let's see where this goes.
I've got all 3 ME games.Many Shepards on each and many Shepards erased from each.
 Before 3 came out I had spent weeks/months getting the perfect Shep male and female ready with my older Sheps for the game to make sure I got the best ending.I still have a female in 2 talking to Mouse and can't bring her forward due to my feelings on the ending,a male (I think) is stuck in 1 for the same reason.
I was first upset when we were told "No multiplayer" we're not working on multiplayer(but the other side of the house was)I personally loath multiplayer and feel like if I buy a game(no matter how great a single player game it is.)that has multiplayer,my money is saying make more multiplayer.I refuse to support MP.No need to go over all the miss quotes and fansarestupid biowaresoldoutdevelopersareliars.It was a bad time to be a ME fan/customer.
For three games we get Saren was wrong,TIM was wrong then for the really missed up ending we get to agree with them.I always pick Hacketts how we win this thing is killing Reapers.I've only finished the game 2-3 times.Why play it more than once if I don't like the endings?Checking  the fish.
As a old fart(during the "we can't get the ending we want" mega thread that was murdered I found out only 2 people were older than me.that admitted to being old anyway.)I don't like being put in the same group as fanboys,children in diapers or can't let go.Don't like being told one thing while reading between the lines I see something else.So I left the forum for awhile and took some time off.
I agree you can't please everyone and if you try you end up pleasing no one.Also there are people that will lie on polls just to mess up something that other people enjoy.My favorite games for relaxation are hard core RPGs and TBS.How many of them come out a year?Very very few.I'm really picky about the games I buy.
To me the endings were a major let down after trying to get Shepards that did it all and found everything for the final game only to see new players who like multiplayer and online shooters get a easier ending and cheaper game.(Cheaper in that they only bought the last one)
Of the three the first Mass Effect was and is my favorite.
I know what I'd like to see in 4(Why a ME4?)just don't think they are really interested in what we want.
Always wondered what a wall of text would look like if I wrote it out.
The above is opinion and no one has to agree with it.I don't agree with other opinions.

EDIT:forgot a word.

[Allan Schumacher]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

So why was closure for Shepard in destroy ignored in EC?

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you aren't ostensibly just trying to troll to aggravate me, since the post immediately preceding yours states:

Shepard's scene may feel out of place, but I'm not privy to the
motivations for why they decided to not change that particular event.
Maybe they just liked it that way? I don't know.

[Jadebaby]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

So why was closure for Shepard in destroy ignored in EC?

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you aren't ostensibly just trying to troll to aggravate me, since the post immediately preceding yours states:

Shepard's scene may feel out of place, but I'm not privy to the
motivations for why they decided to not change that particular event.
Maybe they just liked it that way? I don't know.

If I was trying to troll, it would be a pathetic attempt. Thanks, I missed that part.

While I'm not asking for spoilers, do u happen to know what the dlc after Omega is about?

[Lordambitious]

The main problem I had with the endings, that you left out of your list of three camps, was the lack of consequences and rewards for my choices. I made piece with the quarians and geth, rescued the rachni (which BW promised would play a big part in the ending) rescued the Elcor, etc. None of these things showed up or had an appreciable impact on the ending(s). In ME2 if I missed a particular ship upgrade, that would combine with other factors and a squad mate would die.

A large group of people (including myself) had the largest disappointment in that it felt as though none of our decisions had any value, and all choices were funneled into "Red, Green, or Blue"?

Not only that, but the lack of choice made everyone go "Why do I have to listen to ghost AI kid? I've fought and fought, let's fight this war conventionally, we got the Thanix Cannon and the largest fleet ever assembled. I killed a reaper ON FOOT. I killed another one by launching a thresher maw at it. screw this, I'm gonna kick ass and take names"

[yukon fire]

"Mediocrity only requires aloofness to preserve its dignity."

[Iakus]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Allan be fair, they added a hell of a lot of context for green space magic, the beam run, and a bit extra for control (split ending based on personality). All of which would fall under a change as per the above. The fact that it wasn't done for one of Destroy's most requested clarifications felt out of place.

They did add a lot (and yes, it's all changes). The entire EC was a change that was highly requested by a lot of people. Shepard's scene may feel out of place, but I'm not privy to the motivations for why they decided to not change that particular event. Maybe they just liked it that way? I don't know.

That actually brings up a major reason why there is this feeling of "Bioware doesn't care"  You said yourself in your response to me that a large bloc of complaints about the ending was teh lack of a happy ending.  Personally, I thought expanding on the breath scene in Destroy+ was going to be a no brainer in EC as far as "clarity and closure went.  So many people wanted to see at least one ending where Shepard could walk out alive.  Of course this will be explained!

But lo and behold, we were treated to exactly the same scene as before, with the additional "clarity" of an inexplicably Force Sensitive love interest on the Normandy. Vague implications of maybe not-deadness.  The exact opposite of 'clarity and closure"

For a long time afterwards, I had a sig that read 'Dead Shepards get closure.  Live Shepards get "implications"

I know you're not the one to the answers as to "why"  and all.  Not trying to come across as rude.  But I hope this illustrates why a lot of us are taking the idea of fan opinions being taken seriously with a rather large grain of salt.

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Allan be fair, they added a hell of a lot of context for green space magic, the beam run, and a bit extra for control (split ending based on personality). All of which would fall under a change as per the above. The fact that it wasn't done for one of Destroy's most requested clarifications felt out of place.

They did add a lot (and yes, it's all changes). The entire EC was a change that was highly requested by a lot of people. Shepard's scene may feel out of place, but I'm not privy to the motivations for why they decided to not change that particular event. Maybe they just liked it that way? I don't know.

Well I mean, that's kind of the problem here isn't it? (Also, thanks for coming back to the crazy story forums. Stay awesome.)

But back to the point. Your earlier, larger post pointed out three main issues with the original ending, which I entirely agree with.

1. Lack of closure regarding the galaxy.

2. Lack of Closure regarding the normandy crew

3. Clear choice to either let shepard live or die.

4. The absurdity of the catalyst kid coming out of nowhere.

This is the general complaints I've seen, and I'm still seeing. I won't deny that the EC pleased a lot of people. Pretty much half the fanbase, give or take. 

But why is the other half still upset? I'll tell you my opinion on why that is.

The Extended Cut only fixed 2 of those 4 problems I listed there. It fixed the horrible "10,000 year dark age" thing in the Mass Effect universe. The galaxy survives and rebuilds their societies. The in game universe is preserved to an extent. That's great! 

The normandy crew doesn't end up forever stranded on the random tarzan planet. That's great!

But...what does that leave us? It's clear that bioware intended shepard to die. They pretty much took away player control at the most important part of the trilogy regarding to whether we wanted our Shepard's to sacrifice themselves to the greater good, or survive the entire ordeal. To Bioware, shepard might only be some mere character with limited importance. But to us fans? Shepard to Mass Effect is like Master Chief to Halo. He is the icon of the Mass Effect universe at the moment. So even if you guys don't intend for him or her to return in any of the future mass effect games, then it should have been vital to give Shepard proper closure on /all/ ending varients. 

The EC gave closure to most of the endings. But in the end, it failed to give closure in one of the most picked endings among fans which is that one particular high destroy ending. And no, that isn't an opinion. Look at any poll on BSN or the internet for that matter and you will most likely see Destroy being one of the most preferred endings among fans, maybe in some others its tied with another ending but that's not the point. The point is, Shepard is more than just a character to fans, shepard to a lot of us are kind of like avatars of ourselves. So, when we ask you guys to add in more context to the shepard breath scene and you guys (not as you, but the mass effect team) tell us that we should just imagine our closure for that ending, then do you think that's fair? Not just to us, not just for shepard, but also to the people who helped develop shepard for the past several years?

Modifié par Mr.BlazenGlazen, 26 novembre 2012 - 06:06 .

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

Also on the topic of the catalyst. Yes, it is absurd. It could have been slightly fixed if the catalyst morphed into other characters that shepard felt deeply connected to, but unfortunately we are way past that point.

Right now, giving more context to the "shepard alive" scene is still entirely doable without changing any aspect of the endings, maybe just a very small part. All I want in my opinion is to show or strongly imply that shepard isn't stuck there in smoldering rubble for to long.

[Iakus]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

To be clear, there was no unified voice for why people disliked the endings.  So if you're using the terms like "we" and "our" in response to the EC, you've completely ignored the people that were, in fact, satisfied with the extended cut.

As someone that was following up on the feedback on my own purely out of curiosity, there were 3 different camps that I saw.  People often overlapped somewhat into other camps as well, or even all 3, but they were essentially:

- Those that wanted a happy ending (they disliked how the ending was a downer.  THey didn't feel like they won, wanted to end up with their Love Interest, etc.)
- Those that wanted some level of closure (They were curious what happens in the aftermath?  Is the galaxy destroyed?  what happens to the ships still at Sol?  I have a lot of questions about the end!)
- Those that found the Catalyst to be absurd.  (Why should I believe him?  It seems like we have to give in to him?  Why is there no other way but to utilize the catalyst?  Etc.)

This is a bit simplified but I had written about it quite a bit shortly after I had played the game.  In my experience, the level of closure was easily the most frequently occurring issue.  Followed somewhat closely by the lack of happy ending.  This involves reading feedback on the BSN, as well as a variety of other sites, comments made on various articles about the ending, and mountains of posts on twitter.


On these very forums, you'd see a post in response to the EC that was "THANK YOU SO MUCH!" right beside a "WTF were you even listening to us?  This isn't what we wanted at all!!"


This idea that consensus existed was incorrect.  It happens with more than just ME3's ending too.  Project Eternity, for example, had everyone believing there was consensus over what people liked about the old IE games.  Until they went to the Obsidian message boards and the various things people didn't like about the older games started conflicting en masse with what many other people felt.

Oh I understand there were many levels to the hatred of the original ending.  But to use your own grouping, it seems that EC catered exclusively to the second group.  And to it's credit, EC does confirm that "Hooray, we didn't kill the galaxy!" (unless you choose very low EMS Destroy, maybe)

But the "followed somewhat closely" happy ending crowd gets tuck with the exact same faceless torso scene.  And those who hate the Catalyst got "closure" via a "Rocks fall, everyone dies" ending.  The fact that there are those who still choose it should say something about the endings even in EC.

[Bob Garbage]

I think it's important to understand that Bioware is not full of evil people trying to **** you over, they do however work for people like that now, but the majority of the people making their games want you, the fans, to be happy with their product. I'm saying, I have little doubt that most of Bioware's employees are very interested in what their fans want. However with EA in the picture, in the end, I'm not sure their interest will matter.

[Ihatebadgames]

I don't hate EA as much as I use to.On another forum one of the guys said they bought the new shooter that Ea put out that came out in the last week or two(COD??).That his brother had worked on it and had borrowed a pick of this guys friend that was killed in Afghanistan.Well this guy is playing and who did he run into?yep his friend.Said he bawled for an hour and will probably never finish the game now but it's neat that if he wants to see his friend he is in the game,alive and well.

[Necrotron]

Some good responses, Allan Schumacher. Nice to see you clearing up some common misconceptions, and thanks for interacting with the fans! Always appreciate it.