121 réponses à ce sujet

[Drakar123]

I fully support this.Manaveris Dracona!!!But seriously unlike the maker who probably doesn't even exist the old gods have helped humans many times and actually answer prayers.They helped create the Tevinter Imperium the greatest nation to ever exist on thedas and taught Archon Thalsian blood magic which made Tevinter invincible.It would still rule thedas today if not for the corruption of the magisters.Hopefully in the last DA game we can restore the Imperium to it's former glory with the old gods free from their prisons and the veil gone.

[Herr Uhl]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Dumat, or whatever, still gives Corypheus healthy doses of power throughout the battle. Even if he's dead, I want that on my side. 

This. Darkspawn aside, you can't go wrong when you worship The Old Gods. 

Dealing with the occasional barbarian horde is a bummer though.

[Auintus]

The Hierophant wrote...

Corypheus calls out for Dumat, and is shocked that it doesn't respond to him which probably hints that the Chantry's story of the Old Gods teaching the Magisters on how to travel to the GC is partly true. The only verifiable fallacious claim of the CoL is the Magisters tainting the GC, while the verdict is still out on the Maker's existence, and possible motives.

You're right. Corypheus says that Dumat, or whoever may have been posing as him, promised a golden light and "the powers of the gods themselves." So, yes, Dumat, at the very least, encouraged the Magisters to take the city.

[Maria Caliban]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

And also do the darkspawn just have to find them and tap them on the nose and then BOOM Archdemon or is there more involved?

I assume it's much how the darkspawn turn broodmothers.

Which means it's probably a good thing there are no female Old Gods.

Auintus wrote...

Seriously though, nothing indicates that untainted Old Gods are evil.

Leading the magisters to the Golden City, and supporting a continent spanning empire fueled by the mass sacrifice of slaves aren't exactly benevolent acts.

... Morrigan implies that there in nothing inherently evil about the gods themselves.

Morrigan is hardly the most reliable moral compass.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 26 novembre 2012 - 02:18 .

[Maria Caliban]

*double post*

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 26 novembre 2012 - 02:21 .

[Auintus]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Seriously though, nothing indicates that untainted Old Gods are evil.

Leading the magisters to the Golden City, and supporting a continent spanning empire fueled by the mass sacrifice of slaves aren't exactly benevolent acts.

For a degree of benevolent. The magisters certainly prospered. Gods reward their loyal, what can I say?

... Morrigan implies that there in nothing inherently evil about the gods themselves.

Morrigan is hardly the most reliable moral compass.

She implies that the child in possession of Urthemiel's soul would be no less a blank slate than an average child. So the soul of Urthemiel itself is not corrupting, thus the Old Gods are not inherently evil. Otherwise, he'd be a world-destroying abomination, which wouldn't serve Morrigan better than anyone else.

Modifié par Auintus, 26 novembre 2012 - 02:32 .

[Fredward]

Eh. Pretty sure gods don't usually confirm to human morality systems. I mean the Maker abandoned his people because ONE man killed ONE woman who was betrayed by another MAN but w/e. And before that wasn't he ready to kill everyone? I figure gods do what they do for glory or acknowledgement or some such.

And if we assume the Old Gods become archdemons in a way similar to broodmothers, could we then assume that if some group of people OTHER than the darkspawn found them and awakened them (if that's possible) they'd be like the Old Gods of uhm... old? xp

Maybe that's what Cory will be up to. He certainly doesn't fit the usual mold of darkspawn.

[Fast Jimmy]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

And also do the darkspawn just have to find them and tap them on the nose and then BOOM Archdemon or is there more involved?

I assume it's much how the darkspawn turn broodmothers.

Which means it's probably a good thing there are no female Old Gods.

This actually touches on an interesting point... high dragons, the largest and most powerful dragons, are all female. The male dragons only grow to be drakes, smaller and much less powerful. 

Yet all of the Old Gods are worshipped as males. And (as far as we know) don't reproduce, so this seems to indicate that this gender assignment is correct. 

So does the debunk the theory that the Old Gods are just really old, powerful dragons? Since they seem to be impossible to find in nature. 

In addition, we are told that dragons are part of what keeps the entire world functioning (edit: in the Silent Grove book). Does this include the Old Gods? If so, does killing and destroying them mean bars things for the world? That would be a large argument to cure them from ever turning into Archdemons. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 26 novembre 2012 - 03:21 .

[Fredward]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
In addition, we are told that dragons are part of what keeps the entire world functioning. Does this include the Old Gods? If so, does killing and destroying them mean bars things for the world? That would be a large argument to cure them from ever turning into Archdemons.

It would also mean the Maker is waaaaaay more morally questionable than I'd assumed. He did put this all into play after all.

[Fast Jimmy]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
In addition, we are told that dragons are part of what keeps the entire world functioning (edit: in the Slient Grove book). Does this include the Old Gods? If so, does killing and destroying them mean bars things for the world? That would be a large argument to cure them from ever turning into Archdemons.

It would also mean the Maker is waaaaaay more morally questionable than I'd assumed. He did put this all into play after all.

We have seen ZERO evidence the Maker exists at all, honestly. We have seen more the powers of the Old Gods, the Elven gods, demons like the Forgotten Ones and magic than we have one shred of a omnipotent Creator in the world of Thedas. 

Now... if you are of the mind that the elven gods are real and that they were all trapped/tricked by Fen'Harel the Trickster, it could EASILY be the case that Fen'Harel is the one posing as the Maker. Since he did indeed find a way to trap/destroy the Old Gods as well by unleashing the Taint and sealing them underground (somehow).

By removing all competition, Fen'Harel could then be the only god left to worship. Or perhaps there is something more nefarious/benevelont than just mere worship.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 26 novembre 2012 - 03:21 .

[Xilizhra]

And with the Legacy DLC playing upon a few musical themes (Conductor achievement, the dialogue about hearing drums, etc), and taking place in an area that the dwarves lived/thrived/imprisoned pestilent baddies, maybe Dumat somehow factors into whatever severed the dwarves from the Stone, and the main melody of its song.

The sound of drums comes from Malvernis, not anything to do with Corypheus. Though Malvernis is itself very interesting.

However, Dumat was called the Dragon of Silence because of the silence-based rituals his worshipers engaged in, IIRC.

[Fredward]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
We have seen ZERO evidence the Maker exists at all, honestly. We have seen more the powers of the Old Gods, the Elven gods, demons like the Forgotten Ones and magic than we have one shred of a omnipotent Creator in the world of Thedas. 

Now... if you are of the mind that the elven gods are real and that they were all trapped/tricked by Fen'Harel the Trickster, it could EASILY be the case that Fen'Harel is the one posing as the Maker. Since he did indeed find a way to trap/destroy the Old Gods as well by unleashing the Taint and sealing them underground (somehow).

By removing all competition, Fen'Harel could then be the only god left to worship. Or perhaps there is something more nefarious/benevelont than just mere worship.

Fen'Harel is a trickster god no? So it would make sense then. But if we assume the Old Gods are the forgotten ones where are the "good" gods? That's what has always chafed me about this theory. And did Fen'Harel then really fall in love with Andraste? I mean that seems likely at least if we go by what the Guardian says and her ashes and all.

[Fast Jimmy]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
We have seen ZERO evidence the Maker exists at all, honestly. We have seen more the powers of the Old Gods, the Elven gods, demons like the Forgotten Ones and magic than we have one shred of a omnipotent Creator in the world of Thedas. 

Now... if you are of the mind that the elven gods are real and that they were all trapped/tricked by Fen'Harel the Trickster, it could EASILY be the case that Fen'Harel is the one posing as the Maker. Since he did indeed find a way to trap/destroy the Old Gods as well by unleashing the Taint and sealing them underground (somehow).

By removing all competition, Fen'Harel could then be the only god left to worship. Or perhaps there is something more nefarious/benevelont than just mere worship.

Fen'Harel is a trickster god no? So it would make sense then. But if we assume the Old Gods are the forgotten ones where are the "good" gods? That's what has always chafed me about this theory. And did Fen'Harel then really fall in love with Andraste? I mean that seems likely at least if we go by what the Guardian says and her ashes and all.

I'm not 100% sure the Forgotten one are the same as the Old Gods. But if they are... Elven lore tells us that the gods were locked away in their respective realms. If that means the Forgotten Ones/Old Gods were locked away in the underground... maybe the "good" Elven gods were imprisoned somewhere in the sky? The Fade? The Oceans? Maybe a whole different realm altogether - like wherever Morrigan went in the Eluvian during Witch Hunt.

I really hope the writing team doesn't shirk away from the gods/lore they have built up. By having the Old Gods be the Archdemons, it really tied the concept of religious lore to the very real threats in the world. If they start ignoring all of that and bring in other random beings from the other side of Morrigan's Eluvian, I feel like they will be wasting what they already have been building up.

[Reznore57]

Well there's still the ex golden city , looks like a city fits for gods , or a prison ...
Who knows what's in there?
We know mortals ain't welcome , the taint comes from there.
Now is this a "chemical reaction" because the "impure" have walked into divine territory or it was just a trap all along....afterall the old gods gets also tainted like all the rest.

[Auintus]

Reznore57 wrote...

Well there's still the ex golden city , looks like a city fits for gods , or a prison ...
Who knows what's in there?
We know mortals ain't welcome , the taint comes from there.
Now is this a "chemical reaction" because the "impure" have walked into divine territory or it was just a trap all along....afterall the old gods gets also tainted like all the rest.

The Chantry claims that the Magisters corrupted it, while Corypheus seems to say that it was black before they arrived.

[Josielyn]

Agreed that the old gods that are untainted (are there any?) are probably not evil (not all the time any way) but I would hate to see them in their evil moments. I can't help but think of Greek Mythology where the gods were occasionally benevolent, but also both grumpy and capricious. (Oh, yes you can have ULTIMATE POWER... but what is that you say? You say you just knocked over my FAVORITE statue? BURN you clumsy lifeform!) Though I bet Bioware could come up with better personalities than those found in Greek Mythology. It would be fun to go deeper-- need some more lore here!

[ImperatorMortis]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Leading the magisters to the Golden City,

It was one Old God who did that. One, and it probably wasn't really him. 

PS. The city was already black. 

Maria Caliban wrote...
and supporting a continent spanning empire fueled by the mass sacrifice of slaves aren't exactly benevolent acts.

Meh.. 

The Gods most likely aren't "good", but they aren't "evil" either. Who says they have to be? 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 27 novembre 2012 - 01:43 .

[Viktoria Landers]

I'd love to see a bigger variety in religions. Old God worshipping might be a great idea since the Chantry is on the brick of collapse.

[zenrockoutkast]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

thesnake777 wrote...

It was my understanding thta the old gods who were slain by the grey wardens are gone for good. So worshipping those gods would not really work out. Unless they were going to pull a flemeth.

Well Dumat was the first to go, but he still has a effect on the world in the form of his shrines. Besides there are 3 Old Gods left. 

Urthemiel(God Baby) God of Beauty.
Razikale God of Mystery. 
Lusacan God of Night. 

Besides, maybe the others are somewhere in the Fade or something? 

My current theory, after seeing Legacy, is that the old gods don't die.  Instead, death by a Warden greatly reduces their power, sometimes to the point of confused amnesia like Corypheus experienced when he woke up, or like the Architect.  The old gods are still living, and in fact Flemeth is one of them, biding her time in order to revive all the old gods at once through rituals like Morrigan's, because right now they awaken and are defeated in cycles.  Corypheus was, in fact, Dumat and when the magisters first went to the Black City they didn't corrupt the gods, they freed them from an eternal prison.  This is what Corypheus means when he says the city was black when they got there.  Perhaps the Maker originally imprisoned the old gods, or other fade spirits constructed the myth of the Maker to inspire humanity to fight the Blight valiantly and prevent malicious fade spirits from posessing mortals.  In fact, seeing as how Andraste's ahses really do heal disease and the guardian has supernatural powers, perhaps she was posessed by a benevolent fade spirit, and the idea that the Maker favored her is a euphemism meant to hide the truth, as it would make posession by fade spirits seem reasonable.

[Uccio]

My theory would be that Old Gods used high dragons as avatars and when that dread wolf elven God sealed all Gods away from this world this connection was severed which caused the dragon avatars to go to slumber underground since there were no one to guide them. Afterwards this elven god lured mages to fade and into a trap he had designed, causing taint to come to world since he wanted to destroy what other gods had accomplished. He also appeared to Andraste as Maker to complete the destruction of the worship of Old Gods. Since those sleeping dragon avatars had a pinch of old gods in themselves the taint drives darkspawn to infect them because the source of it, tricster god, designed it to do so. Taint partially awakens avatar dragons, mutates them and drives them grazy sending them out to destroy th world as dread wolf god wants.

[Isaantia]

I agree with zenrockoutkast - I don't think the Old Gods are dead, at least their souls aren't.

I'm going to also gander that the male Warden and Alistair also had something else besides just the taint in their blood to make Morrigan want to do the ritual with them. Something Riordan lacked. After all, when you meet Flemeth as the Warden the first time, it is before the Joining.

[Vandicus]

Auintus wrote...

Reznore57 wrote...

Well there's still the ex golden city , looks like a city fits for gods , or a prison ...
Who knows what's in there?
We know mortals ain't welcome , the taint comes from there.
Now is this a "chemical reaction" because the "impure" have walked into divine territory or it was just a trap all along....afterall the old gods gets also tainted like all the rest.

The Chantry claims that the Magisters corrupted it, while Corypheus seems to say that it was black before they arrived.

I think its unreasonable to assume that the magisters had never been to the Fade before they attempted to enter the Golden City, therefore I would conclude that his statements imply that the City appeared Golden from the outside as well, up until the point of their attempted entry.

Also, seeing as the Chantry and Andraste did not exist until several hundred years after the event, any claims of the appearance of a Golden City in fact originate with Tevinter, which again leads one to believe that the city appeared Golden for quite some time, as no accounts describe the Golden City as being discovered or new knowledge at the time of the event.

[lil yonce]

Who would follow a protagonist that worships at the altar of false gods and high demons?

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 05 décembre 2012 - 08:25 .

[Luciferious]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Who would follow a protagonist that worships at the alter of false gods and high demons?

There's a lot more proof that the Old Gods existed (regardless of actual God status) than there is for The Maker.

[Herr Uhl]

Luciferious wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

Who would follow a protagonist that worships at the alter of false gods and high demons?

There's a lot more proof that the Old Gods existed (regardless of actual God status) than there is for The Maker.

Not how people in universe would see it.