121 réponses à ce sujet

[fchopin]

Are you asking me to worship old gods and cure them?

What kind of gods are these? useless gods?

[Auintus]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Luciferious wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

Who would follow a protagonist that worships at the alter of false gods and high demons?

There's a lot more proof that the Old Gods existed (regardless of actual God status) than there is for The Maker.

Not how people in universe would see it.

Sure it is. The Old Gods became the Archdemons, which trash a country. You can't ignore that. The Maker has done a whole lot of nothing as of yet.

[Auintus]

fchopin wrote...

Are you asking me to worship old gods and cure them?

What kind of gods are these? useless gods?

The Old Gods of Tevinter. Dumat was the archdemon of the First Blight, slain ages ago, yet is still capable of empowering Corypheus during your battle with him. OP is wondering if we could still worship the Old Gods and gain their favor.

[Herr Uhl]

Auintus wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Not how people in universe would see it.

Sure it is. The Old Gods became the Archdemons, which trash a country. You can't ignore that. The Maker has done a whole lot of nothing as of yet.

You're ignoring that the vast majority hates Archdemons and everything they stand for and worship the maker. The original question is why they'd follow you, not whether the maker is real. It is accepted by most that the maker exists.

If you worshipped an Old God, you'd be seen as a lunatic.

[Todd23]

Auintus wrote...

fchopin wrote...

Are you asking me to worship old gods and cure them?

What kind of gods are these? useless gods?

The Old Gods of Tevinter. Dumat was the archdemon of the First Blight, slain ages ago, yet is still capable of empowering Corypheus during your battle with him. OP is wondering if we could still worship the Old Gods and gain their favor.

Only the live ones.
Dumat was slain using Dark Ritual.  And it resulted with Flemeth!

[lil yonce]

Luciferious wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

Who would follow a protagonist that worships at the altar of false gods and high demons?

There's a lot more proof that the Old Gods existed (regardless of actual God status) than there is for The Maker.

The old gods aren't creators, they've been imprisoned and corrupted by a greator force, they've become harbingers of destruction, and five have been slain by mortal men. They aren't worthy of worship, and such practices would be outstandingly heretical to any Andrastian followers the Inquisitor may have.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 06 décembre 2012 - 03:18 .

[Kidd]

The whole old god thing is pretty interesting. The way I see it, these are the options as for how things can really be based on Legacy (I'm assuming Corypheus did not lie, which is a sound assumption imho);

1) Dumat tricked the Tevinter, planning to become an archdemon for whatever reason
2) Dumat tricked the Tevinter, yet he was mistaken about what would happen when men stood in the city
3) Dumat didn't trick the Tevinter, yet he was mistaken about what would happen when men stood in the city

There are, logically, no other options, right?

[lil yonce]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

The whole old god thing is pretty interesting. The way I see it, these are the options as for how things can really be based on Legacy (I'm assuming Corypheus did not lie, which is a sound assumption imho);

1) Dumat tricked the Tevinter, planning to become an archdemon for whatever reason
2) Dumat tricked the Tevinter, yet he was mistaken about what would happen when men stood in the city
3) Dumat didn't trick the Tevinter, yet he was mistaken about what would happen when men stood in the city

There are, logically, no other options, right?

I most certainly view them as deceivers. They're dragons. Dragon Age is set in a fictional western religious setting, and IRL western culture and judeo-christian teachings, the dragon is the ultimate incarnation of evil. The fall of Lucifer and the fall of man are closely correlated, and though we don't know the origin of the old gods, their war on heaven, their fall and the fall of the Tevinter magisters are too similar to be coincidental, IMO.

I believe the old gods taught the Tevinter things they were not at the time fit to know-- magic, were hailed as gods because of their knowledge, and in vainity used their position as false gods to command an army against their creator, The Maker. This backfired big time, however.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 06 décembre 2012 - 03:29 .

[Todd23]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Luciferious wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

Who would follow a protagonist that worships at the alter of false gods and high demons?

There's a lot more proof that the Old Gods existed (regardless of actual God status) than there is for The Maker.

The old gods aren't creators, they've been imprisoned and corrupted by a greator force, they've become harbingers of destruction, and five have been slain by mortal men. They aren't worthy of worship, and such practices would be outstandingly heretical to any Andrastian followers the Inquisitor may have.

  You say that like it's a bad thing.

[lil yonce]

Todd23 wrote...

  You say that like it's a bad thing.

Why would it be a good thing?

[Todd23]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Todd23 wrote...

  You say that like it's a bad thing.

Why would it be a good thing?

Why was the option to pour blood in the ashes in Origins a good thing?  It gave us more freedom to create our character in our own image.  It gave us more oppurtunity to start conflicts with companion we don't like (fun), and companions we did like (drama).

Modifié par Todd23, 05 décembre 2012 - 10:49 .

[lil yonce]

Todd23 wrote...

Why was the option to pour blood in the ashes in Origins a good thing?  It gave us more freedom to create our character in our own image.  It gave us more oppurtunity to start conflicts with companion we don't like (fun), and companions we did like (drama).

I would say it wasn't a "good" thing. It benefited no one and nothing, other than the ego of a lunatic PC. I'd prefer Bioware focus only on real and complex relationship building-- not evil-for-the-lulz interactions.

[Auintus]

Youth4Ever wrote...

I would say it wasn't a "good" thing. It benefited no one and nothing, other than the ego of a lunatic PC. I'd prefer Bioware focus only on real and complex relationship building-- not evil-for-the-lulz interactions.

You become a hero, champion of the newly risen Andraste. Also, first time through, I thought they'd help with the darkspawn.
Plus, an elf wanting to spite the Chantry is not evil, it's just roleplaying.

[BlueMagitek]

Well, I mean, if that's the options, why not just take all the ashes for yourself? You spite the Chantry and have free heals. Forever.

Well, until you run out of ash. :|

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...

fchopin wrote...

Are you asking me to worship old gods and cure them?

What kind of gods are these? useless gods?

The Old Gods of Tevinter. Dumat was the archdemon of the First Blight, slain ages ago, yet is still capable of empowering Corypheus during your battle with him. OP is wondering if we could still worship the Old Gods and gain their favor.

Wut? What proof do you have of this?

[Xilizhra]

I most certainly view them as deceivers. They're dragons. Dragon Age is set in a fictional western religious setting, and IRL western culture and judeo-christian teachings, the dragon is the ultimate incarnation of evil. The fall of Lucifer and the fall of man are closely correlated, and though we don't know the origin of the old gods, their war on heaven, their fall and the fall of the Tevinter magisters are too similar to be coincidental, IMO.

I believe the old gods taught the Tevinter things they were not at the time fit to know-- magic, were hailed as gods because of their knowledge, and in vainity used their position as false gods to command an army against their creator, The Maker. This backfired big time, however.

The Maker very likely doesn't exist, so I'm not really worried about that part. Even if he did, though, I would actually be on the Old Gods' side here; they, after all, didn't outright create the darkspawn in a fit of pique. I would be quite happy to give that war another shot, because if the Maker does exist, he doesn't deserve his position in the slightest.
Also, Slavic dragons (for instance) are not, as a rule, evil; there are pure evil beings that look like dragons, but aren't really.

The old gods aren't creators, they've been imprisoned and corrupted by a greator force, they've become harbingers of destruction, and five have been slain by mortal men. They aren't worthy of worship, and such practices would be outstandingly heretical to any Andrastian followers the Inquisitor may have.

The Maker isn't worthy of worship either, but that hasn't stopped anyone. That said, I don't know if I'd actually worship the Old Gods either so much as be willing to ally with them; they, unlike the Maker, do accept sacrifices (which don't have to be human ones) and return them with power, even when dead (at least, Dumat has).

No way. The Elven Warden Garahel killed Andoral, God of Slaves, and I say good on him.

If worshiping them led to Tevinter, then the rest can stay down or stay dead for all I care.

Priorities. As archdemons, the Old Gods can be killed relatively easily. The Maker, if he exists, is a greater threat.

[Herr Uhl]

Xilizhra wrote...

No way. The Elven Warden Garahel killed Andoral, God of Slaves, and I say good on him.

If worshiping them led to Tevinter, then the rest can stay down or stay dead for all I care.

Priorities. As archdemons, the Old Gods can be killed relatively easily. The Maker, if he exists, is a greater threat.

So you want the Dalish to side with the being that aided the fall of Elvhenan, in order to combat what you assume to be an imaginary figure?

[Xilizhra]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

No way. The Elven Warden Garahel killed Andoral, God of Slaves, and I say good on him.

If worshiping them led to Tevinter, then the rest can stay down or stay dead for all I care.

Priorities. As archdemons, the Old Gods can be killed relatively easily. The Maker, if he exists, is a greater threat.

So you want the Dalish to side with the being that aided the fall of Elvhenan, in order to combat what you assume to be an imaginary figure?

Why would I bring the Dalish into this? Also, this only applies if the Maker turns out to actually exist; if he doesn't, I doubt the Old Gods will be necessary (though I do want to learn more about them).

[lil yonce]

Xilizhra wrote...

The Maker very likely doesn't exist, so I'm not really worried about that part. Even if he did, though, I would actually be on the Old Gods' side here; they, after all, didn't outright create the darkspawn in a fit of pique. I would be quite happy to give that war another shot, because if the Maker does exist, he doesn't deserve his position in the slightest. Also, Slavic dragons (for instance) are not, as a rule, evil; there are pure evil beings that look like dragons, but aren't really.

I do think the Maker exists and that he was the Creator. There are no other creators described in the Dragon Age universe, and we know that the Golden/Black City exists because it can be seen in Fade. So, I do think he exists as the supreme being. There is some guiding evidence, at least. And regarding the darkspawn-- the transgressions of the Magisters were severe and their punishment should be severe in turn. They rejected the Maker-- the being they recognized as their creator-- and sought to usurp his throne with the aid of false gods. It wouldn't be unreasonable to me for the all-powerful creator to deal seriously in their punishment.

The Maker isn't worthy of worship either, but that hasn't stopped anyone. That said, I don't know if I'd actually worship the Old Gods either so much as be willing to ally with them; they, unlike the Maker, do accept sacrifices (which don't have to be human ones) and return them with power, even when dead (at least, Dumat has).

I disagree that the Maker isn't worthy of worship. He doesn't ask for any sacrifice in exchange for powers or salvation as the old gods do. The only thing he asks of his children is to repent their sins and wrong doings, live by the laws he designed to better their lives, reject self-destructive pride, and to believe in him as the creator. Then shall they know the peace of his benediction. That's a much better deal to me. http://dragonage.wik...ght:_Redemption So, I couldn't worship the old gods, and I couldn't ally with them either. What they offer is not greater than what the Maker offers.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 06 décembre 2012 - 04:32 .

[Herr Uhl]

Xilizhra wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

No way. The Elven Warden Garahel killed Andoral, God of Slaves, and I say good on him.

If worshiping them led to Tevinter, then the rest can stay down or stay dead for all I care.

Priorities. As archdemons, the Old Gods can be killed relatively easily. The Maker, if he exists, is a greater threat.

So you want the Dalish to side with the being that aided the fall of Elvhenan, in order to combat what you assume to be an imaginary figure?

Why would I bring the Dalish into this? Also, this only applies if the Maker turns out to actually exist; if he doesn't, I doubt the Old Gods will be necessary (though I do want to learn more about them).

Oh, I though Gaharel was a mainly Dalish icon. And the talk about elves from the prior post. It implied to me that the elves would commit this deicide with the help of the old gods.

[Xilizhra]

I do think the Maker exists and that he was the Creator. There are no other creators described in the Dragon Age universe, and we know that the Golden/Black City exists because it can be seen in Fade. So, I do think he exists as the supreme being. There is some guiding evidence, at least. And regarding the darkspawn-- the transgressions of the Magisters were severe and their punishment should be severe in turn. They rejected the Maker-- the being they recognized as their creator-- and sought to usurp his throne with the aid of false gods. It wouldn't be unreasonable to me for the all-powerful creator to deal seriously in their punishment.

It was completely legitimate. If the Maker exists, he's ignored the world and refused to help anyone based on nothing but ego, and chose to blight the entire continent of Thedas for the actions of a few people.

I disagree that the Maker isn't worthy of worship. He doesn't ask for any sacrifice in exchange for powers or salvation as the old gods do. The only thing he asks of his children is to repent their sins and wrong doings, live by the laws he designed to better their lives, reject self-destructive pride, and to believe in him as the creator. Then shall they know the peace of his benediction. That's a much better deal to me.

If it involves mage slavery, I'll have nothing to do with it. Also, the Maker's policy of inflicting everlasting doom on all those who don't worship him is pure evil.

[lil yonce]

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

It was completely legitimate. If the Maker exists, he's ignored the world and refused to help anyone based on nothing but ego, and chose to blight the entire continent of Thedas for the actions of a few people.[/quote]
[/quote]I don't think the Maker has ignored the world. He left the world and I think that's a different thing. And he does not refuse those who believe in him as Transfigurations:10 demonstrates. The blights are of wrathful origin, yes, but they can be defeated. Its rather ironic that the old gods are condemned to be slain by the mortals they deceived into worship. Their evil and the evil of the Magisters is to be fought in a very real way until the last of their kind is slain. The blights could ultimately belong to a plan meant to purge Thedas of their evil and bring creation closer to the true god. This could be interpreted as pure speculation, however, I'll concede.

[quote]If it involves mage slavery, I'll have nothing to do with it. Also, the Maker's policy of inflicting everlasting doom on all those who don't worship him is pure evil.[/quote]
The Maker hasn't ordained that mages are to be slaves, or even that they should be kept in Circles. That's nowhere in the Chant of Light. And I don't recall "everlasting doom" as a punishment for disbelief mentioned in the Chant of Light either. The only thing close I can find would be the line about being left to, "...wander the drifting roads of the Beyond." That does not assume "everlasting doom," however. Acutally, it sounds like the Spirits found in the Fade that are not evil, but do not know the Maker for themselves. In support of this arguement, there is a Dissonant Verse that contradicts the teaching that Spirits were the Makers first children. That verse states the old gods were the Maker's first creation.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 06 décembre 2012 - 06:04 .

[Rpgfantasyplayer]

I don't know if this has been said and forgive me if it has, but I am currently reading The Calling.


SPOILERS******
The Architect is talking to Bregan, a grey warden that went for his calling, and the Architect states that the darkspawn hear the whispers of the Old Gods in their blood and it compels them to seek them out and that when they find one they touch the face of perfection and thus desecrate it forever.

Which sounds to me like the Old Gods are not tainted until the darkspawn find them, so they would not need to be cured of the taint if they have not been found.

Modifié par Rpgfantasyplayer, 06 décembre 2012 - 06:15 .

[Xilizhra]

I don't think the Maker has ignored the world. He left the world and I think that's a different thing. And he does not refuse those who believe in him as Transfigurations:10 demonstrates. The blights are of wrathful origin, yes, but they can be defeated. Its rather ironic that the old gods are condemned to be slain by the mortals they deceived into worship. Their evil and the evil of the Magisters is to be fought in a very real way until the last of their kind is slain. The blights could ultimately belong to a plan meant to purge Thedas of their evil and bring creation closer to the true god. This could be interpreted as pure speculation, however, I'll concede.

If that's the plan, then it's failed: Flemeth found a way to keep their souls intact. Who's to say how many of them have truly survived? Perhaps even Dumat. In any case, I would be refused given my own lack of belief; such favoritism is entirely inappropriate for a deity supposedly so powerful.

The Maker hasn't ordained that mages are to be slaves, or even that they should be kept in Circles. That's nowhere in the Chant of Light. And I don't recall "everlasting doom" as a punishment for disbelief mentioned in the Chant of Light either. The only thing close I can find would be the line about being left to, "...wander the drifting roads of the Beyond." That does not assume "everlasting doom," however. Acutally, it sounds like the Spirits found in the Fade that are not evil, but do not know the Maker for themselves. In support of this arguement, there is a Dissonant Verse that contradicts the teaching that Spirits were the Makers first children. That verse states the old gods were the Maker's first creation.

The Maker's done nothing to stop it. Everything that exists in the world as of now has the Maker's tacit approval, unless he's far weaker than his servants pretend. And the Void sounds like rather everlasting doom to me.