121 réponses à ce sujet

[Zardoc]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The Maker very likely doesn't exist, so I'm not really worried about that part. Even if he did, though, I would actually be on the Old Gods' side here; they, after all, didn't outright create the darkspawn in a fit of pique. I would be quite happy to give that war another shot, because if the Maker does exist, he doesn't deserve his position in the slightest. Also, Slavic dragons (for instance) are not, as a rule, evil; there are pure evil beings that look like dragons, but aren't really.

I do think the Maker exists and that he was the Creator. There are no other creators described in the Dragon Age universe, and we know that the Golden/Black City exists because it can be seen in Fade. So, I do think he exists as the supreme being. There is some guiding evidence, at least. And regarding the darkspawn-- the transgressions of the Magisters were severe and their punishment should be severe in turn. They rejected the Maker-- the being they recognized as their creator-- and sought to usurp his throne with the aid of false gods. It wouldn't be unreasonable to me for the all-powerful creator to deal seriously in their punishment.

Neither the existence of the Black City, nor the existence of Corypheus prove the Maker exist.

[lil yonce]

Xilizhra wrote...

If that's the plan, then it's failed: Flemeth found a way to keep their souls intact. Who's to say how many of them have truly survived? Perhaps even Dumat.

I think this depends on how you define soul. I believe soul is something that animates the body. It can be other things as well-- the self, emotions, thoughts, etc but not always-- IRL scripture uses the soul in a variety of contexts. So, the soul-- or life force-- of an old god in a mortal does not necessarily mean the old god continues to exist. That mortal would simply have the life force of an old god. That individual may be more powerful than the average person because their soul is not mortal, but I don't know that means the emotions, desires, and motives of an old god are transfered to the mortal body the life force inhabits. I think we'll have to wait and see what Bioware does with the old god baby before we can say that the old gods continue to exist as they previously have. If their soul-- their evil desires and motivations-- has inhabited a mortal body, I would assume that upon their second death as a mortal, they would be left to wander the Fade for eternity.

In any case, I would be refused given my own lack of belief; such favoritism is entirely inappropriate for a deity supposedly so powerful.

But if there was no punishment for disbelief, there would be no reason to believe.

The Maker's done nothing to stop it. Everything that exists in the world as of now has the Maker's tacit approval, unless he's far weaker than his servants pretend.

The Maker gave his children free will. They can follow and delight in his law, or they can reject it for the material world, but he gave his creation the gift of choice. So, the sin in Thedas does not have his approval, but he gave his children the ability to shape themselves and their world.

And the Void sounds like rather everlasting doom to me.

But isn't the Void only a prison to the old gods? The deceivers and most wicked? I don't remember any others being condemed to the Void, but I could be forgetting.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 07 décembre 2012 - 02:13 .

[lil yonce]

Zardoc wrote...

Neither the existence of the Black City, nor the existence of Corypheus prove the Maker exist.

No, not on its own, but it is corroborating evidence. There are no other creators in the DA universe, and Golden/Black City is real.

[Zardoc]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Zardoc wrote...

Neither the existence of the Black City, nor the existence of Corypheus prove the Maker exist.

No, not on its own, but it is corroborating evidence. There are no other creators in the DA universe, and Golden/Black City is real.

And again, nothing more than circumstantial evidence. The Black City's existence doesn't not mean the Maker exists. It means there is a place in the Fade called "Black City", which was found and entered by the magisters, which in turn corrupted the magisters to become proto darkspawn. Nowhere is a Maker needed to explain any of those events. For all we know, the Black City is a demon stronghold, and they didn't appreciate the magisters just barging in there, messing stuff up.

[lil yonce]

Zardoc wrote...

And again, nothing more than circumstantial evidence. The Black City's existence doesn't not mean the Maker exists. It means there is a place in the Fade called "Black City", which was found and entered by the magisters, which in turn corrupted the magisters to become proto darkspawn. Nowhere is a Maker needed to explain any of those events. For all we know, the Black City is a demon stronghold, and they didn't appreciate the magisters just barging in there, messing stuff up.

The DA lore promotes that there is only one creator. We know that the Golden/Black City exists. We know that the ancient Magisters became darkspawn. Considering the lore has a sacred text that speaks to the connection between The Maker, the Golden/Black City, and darkspawn, I think we (or some of us) can and will conclude that the Maker is real.

[Drakar123]

I personally believe that the Black City is Arlathan and that the reason it its always visible in the fade is because unlike everything else there it is not ever changing due to being a piece of the physical world.It's very odd that no trace of Arlathan remains while it was supposedly sunk.Some trace should remain yet none does.

Perhaps the old elves were responsible for the taint and the magisters simply unleashed it ?I can't see any other reason why anyone would go through the trouble to perform the greatest blood magic ritual in history just to destroy a city like Arlathan.The magisters probably had no choice but to get whatever is in there as far away from the physical world as possible.It would have made far more sense for them to steal all magical knowledge the elves had so something probably prevented them from dong so.

[Todd23]

Drakar123 wrote...

I personally believe that the Black City is Arlathan and that the reason it its always visible in the fade is because unlike everything else there it is not ever changing due to being a piece of the physical world.It's very odd that no trace of Arlathan remains while it was supposedly sunk.Some trace should remain yet none does.

Perhaps the old elves were responsible for the taint and the magisters simply unleashed it ?I can't see any other reason why anyone would go through the trouble to perform the greatest blood magic ritual in history just to destroy a city like Arlathan.The magisters probably had no choice but to get whatever is in there as far away from the physical world as possible.It would have made far more sense for them to steal all magical knowledge the elves had so something probably prevented them from dong so.

...  I doubt it.

[Drakar123]

It's unlikely yes but I find it even less likely that the maker is actually responsible for the darkspawn.Especially since we found out some important things the chantry says aren't true.If you have a theory off your own feel free to share it.

[lil yonce]

Drakar123 wrote...

Perhaps the old elves were responsible for the taint and the magisters simply unleashed it ?I can't see any other reason why anyone would go through the trouble to perform the greatest blood magic ritual in history just to destroy a city like Arlathan.The magisters probably had no choice but to get whatever is in there as far away from the physical world as possible.It would have made far more sense for them to steal all magical knowledge the elves had so something probably prevented them from dong so.

I think the Creators and the Old Gods were at war for dominion over Thedas. I theorize that both the Old Gods and the Creators were creations of the Maker that turned from him, crossed the Veil and became false gods to his newest creations-- the citizens of the Tevinter and Arlathan.

I do think the Creators were more benevolent than the Old Gods, teaching magic to all of their followers-- whereas the Old Gods didn't-- made the elven knowledgable and immortal, and they didn't plot to usurp the Golden City. Though great, ultimately their deception wasn't as great as that of the Old Gods, I don't think. However, the case could certainly be made that the sharing of too much knowledge was worse than the sharing of only a little because without their gods, the elves have become less than nothing, but, regardless, I don't think the Creators have been destroyed-- so they must still be imprisoned somewhere in the Fade. I'd like to learn more about them in DA:I.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 07 décembre 2012 - 02:57 .

[Xilizhra]

But if there was no punishment for disbelief, there would be no reason to believe.

A. This is more blatantly false than anything previously stated; otherwise, there would be no such thing as a religion that didn't involve afterlife punishments for disbelievers (and they do exist, several of them). And B, a being such as the Maker shouldn't care anyway.

The Maker gave his children free will. They can follow and delight in his law, or they can reject it for the material world, but he gave his creation the gift of choice. So, the sin in Thedas does not have his approval, but he gave his children the ability to shape themselves and their world.

The Maker would rather see his children suffer than to intervene at all. A sign of a callousness strong enough that, in all likelihood and for the betterment of the world as a whole, the Maker should be destroyed and his power distributed to the living world. In the remarkably unlikely event that he even exists (and in all likelihood, the Maker's existence will never be confirmed or denied anyway, thus making the Maker nonexistent for all intents and purposes, as he'll never affect the player or the world).

[lil yonce]

Xilizhra wrote...

A. This is more blatantly false than anything previously stated; otherwise, there would be no such thing as a religion that didn't involve afterlife punishments for disbelievers (and they do exist, several of them). And B, a being such as the Maker shouldn't care anyway.

The Maker could not be just and righteous if He did not punish sin and disbelief. He could not be the true god if he didn't.

The Maker would rather see his children suffer than to intervene at all. A sign of a callousness strong enough that, in all likelihood and for the betterment of the world as a whole, the Maker should be destroyed and his power distributed to the living world.

The Maker cannot intervene when he is not in control of the world. The gift of free will was given to mortals in an act of love and trust, and in the sin of the Magisters, control of the material world then shifted from man to evil. Transfigurations:10 states, "The one who repents, who has faith, Unshaken by the darkness of the world, She shall know true peace." Trial 1:1 states, "Maker, though the darkness comes upon me, I shall embrace the light. I shall weather the storm. I shall endure. What you have created, no one can tear asunder." Trials: 1:14 states, "Though all before me is shadow, Yet shall the Maker be my guide. I shall not be left to wander the drifting roads of the Beyond. For there is no darkness in the Maker's Light. And nothing that He has wrought shall be lost." An unknown verse states, "Let all repeat the Chant of Light. Only the Word dispels the darkness upon us." Transfigurations: 12 states, "My Maker, know my heart. Take from me a life of sorrow. Lift me from a world of pain. Judge me worthy of Your endless pride." Andraste 14:11 states, "Come to me, child, and I shall embrace you. In my arms lies Eternity." I think its clear that the Maker is good and wants to bless His children. His creation simply has to accept Him as their creator-- give Him back control of the world. Then they shall know peace in His benediction. That is the Maker's intervention.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 07 décembre 2012 - 04:13 .

[Xilizhra]

The Maker could not be just and righteous if He did not punish sin and disbelief. He could not be the true god if he didn't.

I would say stopping sin is far more just and righteous than punishing it after the fact. And disbelief doesn't require punishment in the slightest.

The Maker cannot intervene when he is not in control of the world. The gift of free will was given to mortals in an act of love and trust, and in the sin of the Magisters, control of the material world then shifted from man to evil. Transfigurations:10 states, "The one who repents, who has faith, Unshaken by the darkness of the world, She shall know true peace." Trial 1:1 states, "Maker, though the darkness comes upon me, I shall embrace the light. I shall weather the storm. I shall endure. What you have created, no one can tear asunder." Trials: 1:14 states, "Though all before me is shadow, Yet shall the Maker be my guide. I shall not be left to wander the drifting roads of the Beyond. For there is no darkness in the Maker's Light. And nothing that He has wrought shall be lost." An unknown verse states, "Let all repeat the Chant of Light. Only the Word dispels the darkness upon us." Transfigurations: 12 states, "My Maker, know my heart. Take from me a life of sorrow. Lift me from a world of pain. Judge me worthy of Your endless pride." Andraste 14:11 states, "Come to me, child, and I shall embrace you. In my arms lies Eternity." I think its clear that the Maker is good and wants to bless His children. His creation simply has to accept Him as their creator-- give Him back control of the world. Then they shall know peace in His benediction. That is the Maker's intervention.

Who has said this? Much of this has likely been invented wholesale by the Chantry, and even Andraste herself has given no reason to trust her words on this matter. You know too little about the time she allegedly set it in, and less about her motives; I personally suspect that she is, in fact, Dumat reincarnated. Or was, at any rate. And none of the verses establish the Maker as good so much as able to say things people want to hear, which many beings can do.

[lil yonce]

Xilizhra wrote...

I would say stopping sin is far more just and righteous than punishing it after the fact. And disbelief doesn't require punishment in the slightest.

Is the prevention of sin a greater gift than freedom of will? I personally say no. And rebellion, disbelief is the sin of arrogance. You cannot choose to not believe in your creator and expect that sin to go unpunished.

Who has said this? Much of this has likely been invented wholesale by the Chantry, and even Andraste herself has given no reason to trust her words on this matter. You know too little about the time she allegedly set it in, and less about her motives; I personally suspect that she is, in fact, Dumat reincarnated. Or was, at any rate. And none of the verses establish the Maker as good so much as able to say things people want to hear, which many beings can do.

The Chantry hasn't said any such thing as far as I know. The message is discernable from the Chant alone. The nature of the Maker and of the nature of Thedas after the first sin is revealed in analysis of the scripture-- the word of the Maker. I believe the Chant of Light because I have faith in the Maker-- I trust that he revealed his law to Andraste, and I have faith in the Maker because I trust in His promises to man. Trials: 1:14, "Though all before me is shadow, Yet shall the Maker be my guide. I shall not be left to wander the drifting roads of the Beyond. For there is no darkness in the Maker's Light And nothing that He has wrought shall be lost." Trials: 1:10, "What you have created, no one can tear asunder." Ultimate doom came in the form of the blights, and yet Thedas was not destroyed, for example. I trust in his promises to man because He is just and righteous, and I believe He is just and righteous because when He created man, He gave them freedom of will. I believe He gave his creation freedom of will because He loved and trusted them. I believe He loved and trusted them because He created them in His own image. But without trust or confidence in the Maker, no, the Chant of Light won't mean much.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 09 décembre 2012 - 05:57 .

[Uccio]

The problem with citing chantry writings is that they are from the chantry. Written by maker believers of thedas, so obviously biased. If I write my own holy book and you ask me if it is the ultimate truth what would you expect me to answer?

Still no evidence of the existence of the maker and non-godness of the old gods.

[lil yonce]

Ukki wrote...

The problem with citing chantry writings is that they are from the chantry. Written by maker believers of thedas, so obviously biased. If I write my own holy book and you ask me if it is the ultimate truth what would you expect me to answer?

But the Chant of Light is not Chantry doctrince. It was word adopted by the Chantry. No one in the Chantry wrote the Chant of Light. Andraste wrote the Chant after the Maker spoke to her, so essentially, the Maker wrote the Chant. Yes, the Chant has very likely been edited, added to, had verses removed from it, and some verses may be lost, but the insistent truth at the core of any version of the Chant could not be fabricated-- so far, the Chant has been mostly accurate about historical events in the world.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 07 décembre 2012 - 03:59 .

[Doctoglethorpe]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Zardoc wrote...

And again, nothing more than circumstantial evidence. The Black City's existence doesn't not mean the Maker exists. It means there is a place in the Fade called "Black City", which was found and entered by the magisters, which in turn corrupted the magisters to become proto darkspawn. Nowhere is a Maker needed to explain any of those events. For all we know, the Black City is a demon stronghold, and they didn't appreciate the magisters just barging in there, messing stuff up.

The DA lore promotes that there is only one creator. We know that the Golden/Black City exists. We know that the ancient Magisters became darkspawn. Considering the lore has a sacred text that speaks to the connection between The Maker, the Golden/Black City, and darkspawn, I think we (or some of us) can and will conclude that the Maker is real.

The DA lore promotes that the Chantry believes there is a maker.  That isn't the same as the lore directly supporting or claiming it.  Throughout the lore and through interaction with the world it is clear that the understanding of the world by the characters that live within it and thus by interaction we ourselves is as flawed as it was in real life in, say, the dark ages.

There is no more evidence in DA that the Maker exists then there is evidence irl that a real god exists.  It is purely faith based, even characters like Leliana admit as much. 

Modifié par Doctor Moustache, 07 décembre 2012 - 04:02 .

[lil yonce]

Doctor Moustache wrote...

The DA lore promotes that the Chantry believes there is a maker.  That isn't the same as the lore directly supporting or claiming it.  Throughout the lore and through interaction with the world it is clear that the understanding of the world by the characters that live within it and thus by interaction we ourselves is as flawed as it was in real life in, say, the dark ages.

The lore does support the Maker as the only creator. The Old Gods were not creators, nor were the elven Creators. Who's left? And there is no room in-game for disbelief in a Thedosian creator because the devs have stated there no atheism in Thedas-- so there is a creator. Process of elimination says its the Maker.

There is no more evidence in DA that the Maker exists then there is evidence irl that a real god exists.  It is purely faith based, even characters like Leliana admit as much.

Yes, believing in the existence of the Maker or a real god requires faith, but faith is not a belief in a complete unknown as tradition has wrongly taught.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 07 décembre 2012 - 04:13 .

[Plague Doctor D.]

Youth4Ever wrote...
The lore does support the Maker as the only creator. The Old Gods were not creators, nor were the elven Creators. Who's left? And there is no room in-game for disbelief in a Thedosian creator because the devs have stated there no atheism in Thedas-- so there is a creator. Process of elimination says its the Maker.

Pardon me,but didn't they just say that you cannot >express< atheism,but are not forced to believe either?
And even if there were no atheism in Thedas,that does not proove that there is an actual creator.
If every person in the world,with no exception,would suddenly start to believe that the ground is made of pudding,that would not mean it's true.

Modifié par LordDemitel, 07 décembre 2012 - 09:37 .

[BubbleDncr]

Didn't have a chance to read this whole thread, but there's lots of good thoughts here.

This is basically what I hope all the Dragon Age games eventually led up to - answering all these questions. If they stop making DA games before then, I will be quite sad.

[Todd23]

BubbleDncr wrote...

Didn't have a chance to read this whole thread, but there's lots of good thoughts here.

This is basically what I hope all the Dragon Age games eventually led up to - answering all these questions. If they stop making DA games before then, I will be quite sad.

The end of Dragon Age will be sad no matter what.  1. They end it too early. 2. They end it too late (like Pokemon)  3.  They end it on time, which it will still be the passing of a great era.

[Doctoglethorpe]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Doctor Moustache wrote...

The DA lore promotes that the Chantry believes there is a maker.  That isn't the same as the lore directly supporting or claiming it.  Throughout the lore and through interaction with the world it is clear that the understanding of the world by the characters that live within it and thus by interaction we ourselves is as flawed as it was in real life in, say, the dark ages.

The lore does support the Maker as the only creator. The Old Gods were not creators, nor were the elven Creators. Who's left? And there is no room in-game for disbelief in a Thedosian creator because the devs have stated there no atheism in Thedas-- so there is a creator. Process of elimination says its the Maker.

There is no more evidence in DA that the Maker exists then there is evidence irl that a real god exists.  It is purely faith based, even characters like Leliana admit as much.

Yes, believing in the existence of the Maker or a real god requires faith, but faith is not a belief in a complete unknown as tradition has wrongly taught.

When did they say there is no atheism?  Source that please.  You can make the Warden one through dialog choice...

At the most they might of meant theres no pervalent sect of atheists in the in-game world, not that its impossible that a creator doesn't exist.  Throughout the games and lore you see claims that spirits and demons themselves have never witnessed or have memorys of there ever being a creator, and debate over details of major historical events that aren't even clear.  And theres no physical proof either.  All the Chantry has is words of men, no different then religion irl.  And the lore states as much.  When the codex dicusses things like the maker, it always has foot notes like "according to the chantry." 

And belief in something unknown is exactly what faith is.  Its believing something because it feels right in your gut, regardless of any lack of real proof or even logic. 

Idk why you even want the DA world to be strictly religious.  A world full of unknowns and myths is far more interesting then a world where philosophy and history is set in stone. 

[lil yonce]

Doctor Moustache wrote...

When did they say there is no atheism?  Source that please.  You can make the Warden one through dialog choice...

http://social.biowar...0819/2#13042487 -- First statement on atheism that I know of.
http://social.biowar...x/14199484&lf=8 -- recent discussion.

The PC cannot exhibit consistent disbelief in a higher power, and since atheism is an active disbelief in a higher power, there is no atheism in the DA universe. No one else in-game expresses active disbelief either.

To me that signals there is a creator, but perhaps the better interpretation is that discussion of a true creator is intended to happen, and not be quickly dismissed in the DA universe.

Throughout the games and lore you see claims that spirits and demons themselves have never witnessed or have memorys of there ever being a creator,

I have a theory as to why that is on the last page. http://social.biowar...4371/4#15189442

...and debate over details of major historical events that aren't even clear. And theres no physical proof either.

The Chant of Light is correct about the origin of darkspawn. Corypheus confirms it. If present for Corypheus' statement, previously cynical Anders accepts it.

All the Chantry has is words of men, no different then religion irl.

No, that's not correct. The Chant of light is not the word of man. It is the Maker's word. I have a post on this as well--on this page. http://social.biowar...4371/5#15200858 Transfigurations: 1:1 begins, "These truths the Maker has revealed to me:" The Chant of Light is His word.

And the lore states as much.  When the codex dicusses things like the maker, it always has foot notes like "according to the chantry."

Scholars discuss the Chant of Light, but their words are not the words of the Maker. Its poor phrasing to say, "The Chantry teaches us that [blah blah blah]..." For the Chant of Light is not Chantry doctrine.

And belief in something unknown is exactly what faith is.  Its believing something because it feels right in your gut, regardless of any lack of real proof or even logic.

No, it isn't. Faith is trust. Confidence. Assurance. For example, in a healthy marriage, a married person has faith in their spouse. Faith that they won't cheat, or leave them in sickness, poverty etc. Why? Because that person made a vow, a promise not to. The believer doesn't have faith in an unknown, they have faith in the promise of someone who loves them. Same thing with the Maker. You can know the Maker through his word-- the Chant of light. In it, He makes promises to man-- His children created in His own image. You can trust the Maker-- have faith in Him-- or you can choose not to.

Idk why you even want the DA world to be strictly religious. A world full of unknowns and myths is far more interesting then a world where philosophy and history is set in stone.

I don't want it to be religious. I didn't say I want everyone to follow the Chantry and believe in everything they teach. I'm simply defending the Chant of Light because it has validity that should to be recognized.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 18 décembre 2012 - 05:49 .