30 réponses à ce sujet

[RonGascon]

Hi guys,


Been playing bioware RPGs for some time now. Got into the genre mostly cuz' of the DA:O and ME franchise, along with my past RPG (mostly hack&slash) experiences with Diablo2 & Sacred2. Recently started to collect old-school Bioware RPGs (Baldurs, IWD, NWN series) to make a comparison between the "then" and the "now." There was no turning back for me when I started playing NWN (must have burned 100+ hours in my first 2 weeks). I have to say, I haven't been this addicted to a game since DA:O, Guildwars, Tekken 6 and LoL...


I'm posting one of my build concepts that I've worked on since I started playing. It's a non-cast (minimal) DPS-Tank  Type that specializes in above average attack rolls, High Damage Crits, natural immunities, high AC, high saving throws, above average spell/elemental resistances and damage reduction. I am open to comments and suggestions for the sake of improving the concept. I'm striving for optimization, so for the more calculation-savy people  who will notice flaws in the build, please do make it known, so I can fix it in my future attempts.


:innocent:"Divine Templar":innocent:


Race: Human

class: Paladin (5), Monk (20),Champion of Torm (15)


Initial Stats:                                Stats @40 w/o Feats & Equipment               

Str-15 ------------------------------------------------  Str-20 (+5)

Dex-9 ------------------------------------------------- Dex-9 (-9)

Con-16 ----------------------------------------------- Con-20 (+5)

Wis-12 ----------------------------------------------- Wis-12 (+1)

Int-10 ------------------------------------------------- Int-10 (0)

Cha-13 ----------------------------------------------- Cha-14 (+2)


(Notable) Skills: Raw Number w/o the effect of the modifiers

Concentration - 15, wasn't sure if DM, DS & DW were interruptable so I put some points here for safety.

Discipline - 40

Heal - 20

Persuade - 30, Anything more than that along w/ CHA bonus post-equipment will most likely pass any Persuade DC, if nothing else I just like numbers ending in "0" and "5" they look neat that way...

Tumble - 40 = +8 AC

Lore - 4, leftovers... enough money to identify stuff...


Feats:

*Note that only feats applicable to the concept will be listed. Feats lik "Monk AC Bonus" and "Unarmed
Strikes" will be ignored because this character concept involves being in Heavy Armor & Equipping a Weapon.

Initial Feats:

Toughness, Weapon Focus: Longsword

Innate Feats: (things you get for free just by being that class) !!!=Super, !=Awesome, ^^=okay, *=meh


Paladin: Divine Grace, Divine Health, Aura of Courage,  Turn Undead, Cure Disease, Smite Evil, Summon
Mount, Shield Proficiency, Martial Proficiency, Heavy Armor Proficiency

- You don't have to worry about wearing any equipment (!!!)

- Immunity to Fear and Disease (!!!) anything that makes you immune is awesome, that's the concept of the
build

- Divine Grace = Free Universal Saving Throws  -- provided you have a decent CHA modifier (!!!)

- Turn Undead = Access to Divine Might & Divine Shield -- the concept is to make you an unkillable freight train... who doesn't want more AC,saving throws & damage? (!!!)

- Summon Mount = Pimp Horse (!!! for Roleplay value - "a knight sent by God", meh for practical use)

- Free Heal Skill (!)


Monk: Cleave, Evasion, Improved Evasion, Knockdown, Improve Knockdown, Deflect Arrow, Wholeness of the Body, Diamond Body, Diamond Soul, Perfect Self

- Prized and  Meh-class Melee-Oriented Feats like Cleave and Knockdown are given to you for free(!!!)

- Prized Survivability Feats like Evasion and Improved Evasion are given to you for free(!!!) - since the final build
is expected not to fail in any saving throws due to humungous innate bonuses, this pretty much guarantees "0 damage taken on any Reflex DC"

- Immunity to Poison and Mind Control Skills (!!!) anything that makes you immune is awesome, that's the concept of the build

- 30 Spell Resistance (!!!) - nuff said...

- 20/+1 damage Reduction (!!!) anything that reduces any physical damage that passes through your AC, saves and DC's get reduced by this.

- Free Heal Skill (!)


COT: Sacred Defense, Divine Wrath +2

-  +7 Universal Saving Throws... for free... (!!!)

- + attack rolls, + damage, + saving throws and a gain of 5/+1 damage reduction on activation of "Divine Wrath"

*Note: At this point if you aiming to create a Tank, you've pretty much made one just by allocating your "class
Attribute Points". You can pretty much wear anything w/o optimizing your equipment and still be effective in mitigating damage received.
 
Purchased Feats: (feats purchased upon leveling up)

Divine Might (!!!)

Divine Shield (!!!)

Extra Turning (!!!)

Extra Smite Evil (*, for Roleplay Value)
 

Armor Skin (!!!, MOAR AC...)

Epic Toughness I (!, MOAR Health...)


Power Attack (!)

Epic Weapon Focus: Long Sword (!)
Great Cleave (!!!)- PENTAKILL!!!

Great Strength I, II, III, IV, V (!!!) - necessary to unlock the ff feats:[/i]
Improved Criticals: Long Sword (!!!)- PENTAKILL!!!
Overwhelming Criticals (!!!)- PENTAKILL!!!
Devastating Criticals (!!!)- PENTAKILL!!!


Questionable Feat Choices:

Blind-Fight - since most of the necessary melee oriented attack/survivability feats were given for free, didn't really have much of a choice selection from the feats available pre-Epic levels...

Improved Power Attack - I read somewhere that this feat is bad since it doesn't scale well, just like Blind-Fight, didn't have much of a choice selection pre-Epic Levels

* would it be better if I had gone 13 Dex, 16 Con for access to Dodge and Mobility instead??? or is that overkill?


Equipment: (End-Game,items to strive for...)

Armor - Armor of Faith (no real reason, roleplay purposes)

Shield - Hastsezini's Shield (no real reason, roleplay purposes)

Weapon - Holy Avenger (long sword proficiency/crit bonuses + roleplay purposes)

Amulet - Amulet of Good = + 3 Wis and +3 Cha

Ring 1- Ring of Power = 15 Resist to Elements, Regen & Freedom

Ring 2 - Ring of Elemental  Resistance and/or Ring of Protection (SWAPS for Physical Heavy and Elemental Heavy)

Bracer - Bracer of Armor +x-xx, for MOAR AC

Belt - Belt of the Giant +x-xx, for MOAR Damage

Boots - Boots of Striding +x-xx, for MOAR Health

Cloak of the Nymph +x, +CHA for your DM, DS and DW


Q&A -

Q#1 - Why not pick a Paladin/Cleric/CoT instead, if you were aiming for
some kind of legit God-mode?

A#1 - First of all, Cleric gameplay doesn't really fit my idea of a Knight. While
the bonuses achieved with an empowered/maximized/extended - Greater
Stoneskin/Bull's Strength/Eagle's Splendor/Premonition/Spell Mantle surpasses what
was achieved in what I just wrote...ten-fold... It'll eventually wear off,
meaning you'll have to recast it over and over again throughout your entire gameplay. It's not a matter of
being lazy, it's more about following the role-playing principle. The concept of the
build is a natural tank (80-90% of AC,ST and Damage come from just "being
you") rather than a spellsword, who uses a lot of buffs to achieve the max
break points.

With the Divine Templar, you can just walk around and beating things, laughing @ the game, randomly casting
that occasional DivM/DivS/DivW if you really want. Engage a mob, fall asleep for 8 hours, and with much luck... you'll probably still see you character alive and well when you wake up.


Suggestions... now open!!!

Modifié par RonGascon, 25 novembre 2012 - 08:30 .

[Shadooow]

Concentration - 15, wasn't sure if DM, DS & DW were interruptable so I put some points here for safety.

they aren't

[MagicalMaster]

First, welcome to NWN.  It's a lot of fun, don't let the following get you down.  Just trying to help you learn and improve.

Unfortunately, there are a few issues here...

[quote]RonGascon wrote...

above average attack rolls[/quote]

Your best case BAB is 5 paladin/5-8 monk/10-7 Champion, which is 18 pre-epic.

28 (BAB) + 7 (strength) + 3 (Weapon Foci) = 38 AB unbuffed.  Assuming +12 strength from buffs and a +5 weapon, that's 49 AB.

A pure level 40 fighter can easily get 30 (BAB) + 12 (strength) + 4 (Weapon Foci and Epic Prowess) = 46 AB unbuffed, or 57 with the same equipment.  You're already lacking 8 AB on a standard fighter.

If you look at a pure monk, you can probably expect a minimum of 25 (BAB) + 11 (dexterity) + 3 (Weapon Foci) = 39 AB.  So you're actually behind a pure monk that has far more AC and spell resistance.

[quote]RonGascon wrote...

natural immunities[/quote]

Monks are already immune to all mind spells, poisons, and diseases.  Paladin immunity to fear and diseases is therefore pointless.

[quote]RonGascon wrote...

high AC[/quote]

If you wear armor with this build, you're giving up 4 free monk AC (along with movement speed and some other stuff) in exchange for basically nothing.  And you don't have enough dexterity to avoid armor.  Your AC isn't very high at all, actually.

[quote]RonGascon wrote...

high saving throws[/quote]

The saving throws are better than average, but they're not crazily high.  CoT saving throws also count as saving throws from gear which caps at 20 total, by the way.  You simply don't have enough charisma to really take advantage of the paladin bonus.

[quote]RonGascon wrote...

above average spell/elemental resistances and damage reduction.[/quote]

The spell resistance will automatically be beaten by a level 29 or higher caster.

The damage reduction will only reduce damage from weapons with no AB or Enhancement bonus (a +1 or better weapon will ignore it).

[quote]RonGascon wrote...

Initial Stats:                                Stats @40 w/o Feats & Equipment               

Str-15 ------------------------------------------------  Str-20 (+5)

Dex-9 ------------------------------------------------- Dex-9 (-9)

Con-16 ----------------------------------------------- Con-20 (+5)

Wis-12 ----------------------------------------------- Wis-12 (+1)

Int-10 ------------------------------------------------- Int-10 (0)

Cha-13 ----------------------------------------------- Cha-14 (+2)[/quote]

This is already a waste.  At a minimum, you could drop strength to 14 and raise dex to 10 and cha to 4, then raise strength while leveling.  Raising your constitution is also not very good, you'd be better off with those points in strength.

[quote]RonGascon wrote...

- Divine Grace = Free Universal Saving Throws  -- provided you have a decent CHA modifier (!!!)[/quote]

Which you don't.

[quote]RonGascon wrote...

- Turn Undead = Access to Divine Might & Divine Shield -- the concept is to make you an unkillable freight train... who doesn't want more AC,saving throws & damage? (!!!)[/quote]

Even with +12 charisma from gear, you have 11 uses a day for +8 AC and +8 damage.  That's less than 5 minutes of combat with those buffs up.

[quote]RonGascon wrote...

- Free Heal Skill (!)[/quote]

If you mean Lay on Hands, it'll basically do nothing.

[quote]RonGascon wrote...

- 30 Spell Resistance (!!!) - nuff said...[/quote]

Any spellcaster level 29 or higher will completely ignore the spell resistance.

[quote]RonGascon wrote...

- 20/+1 damage Reduction (!!!) anything that reduces any physical damage that passes through your AC, saves and DC's get reduced by this.[/quote]

Any weapon that's +1 or better with completely ignore the reduction.

[quote]RonGascon wrote...

Epic Toughness I (!, MOAR Health...)[/quote]

This is pretty worthless, there has to be something better.

[quote]RonGascon wrote...

Blind-Fight - since most of the necessary melee oriented attack/survivability feats were given for free, didn't really have much of a choice selection from the feats available pre-Epic levels...

Improved Power Attack - I read somewhere that this feat is bad since it doesn't scale well, just like Blind-Fight, didn't have much of a choice selection pre-Epic Levels[/quote]

Blind Fight is one of the best feats in the entire game.  As in, better than Weapon Focus and Epic Weapon Focus combined against a 50% concealed opponent.  It scales extremely well.

But Improved Power Attack is pretty pointless.

[quote]RonGascon wrote...

* would it be better if I had gone 13 Dex, 16 Con for access to Dodge and Mobility instead??? or is that overkill?
[/quote]

You should leave Con at 14 with this build and raise Dex to 12, Cha to 14 if you're going with it.  Dodge is a good feat versus one opponent, obviously.  Mobility only helps when you drink a potion.

[quote]RonGascon wrote...

Equipment: (End-Game,items to strive for...)[/quote]

These will all vary vastly depending on your module/server.

[WhiZard]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Concentration - 15, wasn't sure if DM, DS & DW were interruptable so I put some points here for safety.

they aren't

He might be looking at vs. entangle, in which case a modified score of 14 is needed for both feats and spells to guarantee no interruption.

[RonGascon]

@Magical Master: wow... thanks for the very informative feedback. this is why I love forums, so people can tell you how to optimize your gaming...

so I guess.. it's not worth it for me to go Monk lvl 20... Immunity to Mind Spells is a nice thing but not worth the 9 levels of nothing. I was quite aware of the fact that putting on heavy armor actually decreases my potential AC, but I really have my mind set on a Sword&Board Holy Knight in Heavy Armor Concept (Paladin/CoT/xxx)... and the Monk's - Free Evasion/Improve Evasion/Cleave + Immunity to Poison was just something I couldn't pass up on. However, I'm quite disappointed of the ineffectiveness of "Spell Resist" and - 20/+1

with the way things are, I might just go 5 Paladin/11 Monk (for Diamond Body)/24 CoT... which will probably put me 37 BAB (according to the wiki table: 5+8+24) + 12 from STR + 6 (Weapon Focus + Epic Weapon Focus + Epic Prowess *if I'm to take instead of Improved Power Attack) = 55 BA (4 BA pts improvement)... If there's 1 thing that irks me, its that 5/11/24 doesn't look nice... I prefer things ending in 5's and 0's.

---------

Since I'm fairly new to NWN series, can you give me a generic "Tank-type" HP range for a lvl 40? I always believed in "the more HP, the better..." approach. but seems, like that isn't the case here. will the extra 3 points in DEX mean a lot? I have 40 pts in Tumble, but when I looked at the modified rate I was shocked to see it only at 22... which meant I'm only getting +4 AC from it instead of the intended +8 AC.
--------------------
I guess DM, DS and DW are really frivolous skills for me ATM, what levels of CHA make these feats game changin?

I appreciate the input you've given me so far. Learnin a lot the past couple of hours. I can't believe I actually reached lvl 40 multiple times without learning essential things, and was working on unfounded misconceptions.

[Failed.Bard]

Epic levels gain BAB at the same progression regardless of class taken, at +1 per two levels. You maximum level 40 BAB is 30. You have to front load the full BAB classes taken in order to take advantage of the full gain in the first 20 levels, as well as to maximize number of attacks per round.
Taking 5 paladin, and 4 monk would be enough to get the BAB needed for CoT, but since you can only take 10 of that pre epic you'd have to take a 5th monk level to get to 20th, and that one won't give you any BAB. You're better off taking 6 paladin levels just for that reason, regardless of the balance of the rest of the levels.

[Empyre65]

Here are some useful links for new players/builders:
Character Build Calculator - made for Excel. You can use Open Office, but it is prone to crash.
NWN Wiki - a great reference tool.
The Epic Character Builders Guild forums - a great place to ask for character build help.
Epic Character Build Search Engine - to search through the many awesome builds made through the years by the Epic Character Builders Guild.

Modifié par Empyre65, 26 novembre 2012 - 08:50 .

[Elhanan]

Welcome to NWN1

You could possibly play Pal 10/ CoT 10 in pre-Epic; Monk 20 during Epic life for full 20 BAB. This way the Immunities for Paladin would be more helpful in early life.

If you are on a PW, you could drop Persuade as it is often unused in play; at least on the PW's I have experienced.

STR 14, DEX 10, CON 14, WIS 14, INT 12, CHA 14 is my recommendation for starting stats. Looking to boost REF along the way, Luck of Heroes could be chosen at 1st

Modifié par Elhanan, 26 novembre 2012 - 02:10 .

[MagicalMaster]

RonGascon wrote...

so I guess.. it's not worth it for me to go Monk lvl 20... Immunity to Mind Spells is a nice thing but not worth the 9 levels of nothing.

I doubt any levels of monk are worth it in this build, frankly.

RonGascon wrote...

I was quite aware of the fact that putting on heavy armor actually decreases my potential AC, but I really have my mind set on a Sword&Board Holy Knight in Heavy Armor Concept (Paladin/CoT/xxx)

I meant that by using heavy armor, you become a standard fighter with a tumble dump.  Your AC becomes average.  Extreme ACs under default rules involve monks, PMs, and/or dexterity builds for the most part.

RonGascon wrote...

and the Monk's - Free Evasion/Improve Evasion/Cleave + Immunity to Poison was just something I couldn't pass up on

Ah, but it's not free, is it?  It requires you giving up levels in another class, such as improving Paladin spells or getting more feats.

RonGascon wrote...

However, I'm quite disappointed of the ineffectiveness of "Spell Resist" and - 20/+1

Those tend to be binary.

For example, with SR 30 you'd be completely immune to a level 9 or less caster.  A level 40 monk can ignore any spell from a level 29 or less caster and roughly half the spells from a level 40 caster (unless the caster has Spell Penetration, but the monk can also get more spell resistance).

The 20/+1 is also incredibly effective versus mundane weapons...but worthless versus magical ones.

RonGascon wrote...

with the way things are, I might just go 5 Paladin/11 Monk (for Diamond Body)/24 CoT... which will probably put me 37 BAB (according to the wiki table: 5+8+24) + 12 from STR + 6 (Weapon Focus + Epic Weapon Focus + Epic Prowess *if I'm to take instead of Improved Power Attack) = 55 BA (4 BA pts improvement)... If there's 1 thing that irks me, its that 5/11/24 doesn't look nice... I prefer things ending in 5's and 0's.

First, 12 strength is 6 modifier which is 6 AB.

Second, I really don't think Monk is worth it in this build, though we can try to make it worth. 

Third, if you want character power, expect to not end neatly in 5's and 0's.

RonGascon wrote...

Since I'm fairly new to NWN series, can you give me a generic "Tank-type" HP range for a lvl 40? I always believed in "the more HP, the better..." approach. but seems, like that isn't the case here. will the extra 3 points in DEX mean a lot? I have 40 pts in Tumble, but when I looked at the modified rate I was shocked to see it only at 22... which meant I'm only getting +4 AC from it instead of the intended +8 AC.

First, tumble AC counts the base ranks (points you put into it), so you don't lose tumble AC with armor and shield.

Second, those 3 dex points gives you 2 more AC, which is roughly 20-30% less physical damage taken.

Third, what exactly do you mean by tank?  A powerful fighter with a shield who can charge into melee?  Or someone who is built to withstand as much punishment as possible by giving up offense?  Are we worried about damage reduction, high AC, spell avoidance, concealment, etc?  The more defenses you have, the more powerful your HP pool is.

RonGascon wrote...

I guess DM, DS and DW are really frivolous skills for me ATM, what levels of CHA make these feats game changin?

Probably at least 18 base score *if* you can get 12 charisma elsewhere.  Preferably higher than that, though, if you're trying to make it an important part of the build.

[Aelis Eine]

Monk 20/Buncha melee classes is actually a pretty popular build, but more for PvP than PvE. The main idea behind that build is that it moves so fast you can take advantage of lag and being incredibly hard to click while moving to make sure other players can't attack you. Also, being able to zip around corners to enter stealth mode for a de facto Hide in Plain Sight.

These builds usually go for stealth skills and all out burst damage, like Dev Crit or WM or Sneak Attacks. No defenses except for Deflect Arrows and your movespeed, and maybe small size if you go Halfling to make yourself even harder to click. The player also needs to have low ping.

Just pretend you're a gangsta doing a drive by. Run up, swing a couple times, run off into a corner. Not so workable in PvE where there's monsters around every corner and AI stealth detection is pretty buggy.

Modifié par Aelis Eine, 26 novembre 2012 - 11:28 .

[RonGascon]

MagicalMaster wrote... I meant that by using heavy armor, you become a standard fighter with a tumble dump.
 Your AC becomes average.  Extreme ACs under default rules involve monks, PMs, and/or dexterity builds for the most part.

been hearing that term in a lot of RPGs but not exactly sure what it means. what is a dump?

MagicalMaster wrote... First, 12 strength is 6 modifier which is 6 AB.-

I have 25 base str since i have access to the "Devastating Crit" Feat, + 10 Str from equipment which puts it at 35 Str.. my game is showing a 12  modifier. I'm not sure if that changed when I patched it last night to 1.69.


MagicalMaster wrote...Second, I really don't think Monk is worth it in this build, though we can try to make it
worth. Third, if you want character power, expect to not end neatly in 5's and 0's.


TBH I just wanted to take the free  immunities, also the fact that I'm given Cleave/Knockdown/Evasion and
Improved Evasion as a feat simply by levelling in that profession, enabled me to get all the melee-oriented feats (shown in the character progression chart) and have enough Feats left to burn G. Strength I-V to enable me access to Devastating Criticals. And that was something I could not do with a Paladin/CoT/Fighter or Paladin/CoT/Rogue despite having higher BA potential.

yah 5's and 0's were just a pet-peeve of mine. I don't really mind deviating away from it.

MagicalMaster
wrote...First, tumble AC counts the base ranks (points you put into it), so you don't lose tumble AC with armor and shield.

That's good to hear...

MagicalMaster wrote... Second, those 3 dex points gives you 2 more AC, which is roughly 20-30% less physical damage taken.

That is just pure awesome...

MagicalMaster wrote... Third, what exactly do you mean by tank?  A powerful fighter with a shield who can charge into melee?  Or someone who is built to withstand as much punishment as possible by giving up offense?  Are we worried about damage reduction, high AC, spell avoidance, concealment, etc?  The more defenses you have, the more powerful your HP pool is.


That was pretty much the concept of the build in the first place. That's the main reason for the class choices and class level points allotment. the "purchased feats" were to compensate for the "giving up on offense" part which was why they were concentrated on increasing the BA sacrificed and increasing damage potential through the purchase of
crit-modifier feats. From what I'm gathering with what you said: it seems to me that a mediocre amount of HP becomes more effective tank with the right mix of these: damage reduction, high AC, spell avoidance, concealment than that of a character with a higher HP pool.

Level Progression:
BOLD - feat necessary to the Concept Build
*** -low level utility feat
**- feat taken to fulfill roleplaying aesthetics
* - feat was taken due to the lack of better choices
Feats listed before >> are those gained through leveling in a certain profession.
Feats listed after >> are those "purchased" upon level up.

1 - Paladin - Divine Grace, Divine Health, Shield Proficiency**, L/M/H. Armor Proficiency, Weapon Proficiency: Simple, Weapon Proficiency: Martial, Lay of Hands***>> Toughness, Weapon Focus: Longsword**
2- Monk - Cleave, Evasion, Improved Unarmed Strikes, Flurry of Blows, Monk AC Bonus
3 - Paladin - Smite Evil**, Aura of Courage >> Power Attack
4 - Monk - Deflect Arrows, (+1 Constitution)
5 - Monk - Monk Speed, Still Mind
6 -  Paladin - Cure Disease, Turn Undead >> Divine Shield**
7 - Monk -
8 - Monk - Purity of Body (Divine Health makes this redundant), (+1 Constitution)
9 - Paladin - >> Divine Might**
10 - Monk - Knockdown, Improved Knockdown
11 - Monk - Wholeness of Body***
12 - Paladin - Summon Mount** >> Extra Turning**, (+1 Constitution)
13 - CoT -
14 - CoT - (+1 Universal Saving Throws Bonus) Sacred Defense >> Improved Criticals: Long Sword**
15 - CoT - >> Great Cleave
16 - Monk - (+1 Constitution)
17 - Monk - Improved Evasion
18 - Monk - Ki Strike +1 >> Extra Smiting**
19 - Monk - Diamond Body
20 - Monk - Diamond Soul, (+1 Strength)
21 - CoT - Epic Char >> G. Strength I, Epic Weapon Focus: Longsword**
22 - CoT - Divine Wrath
23 - Monk - Ki Strike +2
24 - CoT - >> G. Strength II, Armor Skin, (+1 Strength)
25 - CoT -
26 - Monk -
27 - Monk - Quivering Palm >> G. Strength III
28 - CoT - >> Epic Prowess, (+1 Strength)
29 - Monk - Ki Strike +3
30 - Monk - >> G. Strength IV
31 - Monk >> Empty Body
32 - Monk - (+1 Strength)
33 - CoT - >> G. Strength V
34 - CoT - >> Overwhelming Criticals: Long Sword**
35 - CoT - Epic CoT
36 - CoT - (+1 Strength)
37 - CoT - >> Devastating Criticals: Long Sword**
38 - CoT - (+7 Universal Saving Throws Bonus) Sacred Defense >> Epic Toughness I
39 - CoT - +2 Divine Wrath >> Blind-Fight*
40 - Monk - Perfect Self

*** The quoting system here is so messed up.

Modifié par RonGascon, 27 novembre 2012 - 02:01 .

[Elhanan]

Think that means a Skill Dump. Many folks wait until the last few lvls to add their Skill ranks, esp upon Respec or Relevels. However, when actually playing the character, I find it better to invest the points for actual play.

[MagicalMaster]

RonGascon wrote...

been hearing that term in a lot of RPGs but not exactly sure what it means. what is a dump?

In NWN, a skill dump is the idea of taking a level of a class that has access to a skill as a class skill.  For example, a 40 fighter could only get 21 max tumble ranks.  However, if you took a rogue level at level 40, you could avoid spending those points prior to max level and put in 43 (obviously for tumble specifically you'd do 20 and 40 for tumble).  This means you'd get 4 more AC at the cost of 1 fighter feat and 4 HP.

RonGascon wrote...

I have 25 base str since i have access to the "Devastating Crit" Feat, + 10 Str from equipment which puts it at 35 Str.. my game is showing a 12  modifier. I'm not sure if that changed when I patched it last night to 1.69.

Ah, I thought you were referring to +12 strength from spells/gear, which caps at 12 and thus has a modifier of 6.

RonGascon wrote...

And that was something I could not do with a Paladin/CoT/Fighter or Paladin/CoT/Rogue despite having higher BA potential.

Actually, you should be able to easily do it.  You can even do it with a pure paladin.  Pure paladin gets 7 general feats and 6 class bonus feats.

Epic Weapon Focus
Epic Prowess
Armor Skin
Overwhelming Critical
Devastating Critical

That's only 5.  You get a 6th and could still take 7 Great Strength feats.

RonGascon wrote...

it seems to me that a mediocre amount of HP becomes more effective tank with the right mix of these: damage reduction, high AC, spell avoidance, concealment than that of a character with a higher HP pool.

It really depends.

Let's say you were fighting a mob with lots of AB and lots of light attacks.  High damage reduction would be best, AC/Concealment wouldn't help much and spell resistance would be useless.

Let's say you were fighting a mob with some AB and really high damage per hit.  Damage reduction would matter less, you'd want higher AC and something like Epic Dodge would be really amazing.

Let's say you were fighting a spellcaster.  Damage reduction, AC, and concealment would do nothing.  You'd want high spell resistance and/or high saves and/or high HP.

So you really have to figure out WHAT you want to tank against, or if you want to try to make a very general build.

[HipMaestro]

Designing towards DevCrit is a commitment.  If so, damage per hit becomes secondary.  This build is a poor choice for DevCrit because if you want to take advantage of the -3 monk progression (which is worth it's weight in gold), you'll be stuck with unarmed or kamas, 2 of the poorest crit attacks.   Don't see how monk could possibly lend anything useful to your DevCrit plan unless going DW with kamas to max APR, but even with 12 APR usig FoB, if you can't hit, you can't crit.  As sample metric, a fully-enhanced AB of say 60, will hit ACs of around 70 about half the time.  So you need to gear your build towards the max AC of the environment in order to build the best competitor, assuming you seek an optimized design.

You'll be hard-pressed to build both an optimized warrior and one that is intended for roleplay purposes.  RP usually weakens combat effectiveness.

Better would be some sort of kukrimaster, basically a Dual-wield build that sets DEX at 15 and the rest into STR.  Though I've never made a pally kukrimaster, it may be possible to grab enough feats by migrating quickly to CoT and then WM, for at least 7 levels.  They both get bonus feats. I don't see monk as adding anything worthwhile to this build unless you go high WIS and use robes without shield.  You'll lose too much AC otherwise.

On the other hand, if you are going against foes very difficult to hit and are expecting to rely on 20 rolls to hit, then the AB ends up meaning very little, and in that case chose a weapon with high crit range, take the DM/DS feats and pump CHA as high as practical, attacking mostly with power attack since 20's ignore AC altogether.  Then you can ignore the DevCrit and kill by high-damge.

If this is supposed to be for PvP, you'll get owned by arcanists and probably Battle Clerics with either DevCrit or uber-damage builds.  Depends on how the PW has nerfed the magic-users with artificial customizations, though.

[Elhanan]

Personally, I do not like or utilize Dev Crit, but Overwhelming Crit is fun to play. Enjoy seeing all those high dmg numerals that can appear for a decent weapon of choice.

And somewhat agree with HM above: unless one can get some decent kukri on the server, the build may not be the one to enjoy there.

[MagicalMaster]

Elhanan wrote...

Personally, I do not like or utilize Dev Crit, but Overwhelming Crit is fun to play. Enjoy seeing all those high dmg numerals that can appear for a decent weapon of choice.

Overwhelming Critical does like...10 more damage per crit.  It's not worth the feat investment by default.

On something I was worked on, I made it so having Overwhelming Critical added 20 Massive Criticals to the weapon you were using, which like triples its value.

[WhiZard]

MagicalMaster wrote...

Overwhelming Critical does like...10 more damage per crit.  It's not worth the feat investment by default.

The average per critical is 7 (x2 multiplier) to 17.5 (x5 WM scythe multiplier).  As a perk it does stack with massive critical.

[MagicalMaster]

I'm aware.

Which, when you look at the breakdown of the weapons, averages out to about 10 (x2 weapons do 7, x2 weapons with WM do 10.5, x3 weapons do 10.5, x3 weapons with WM do 14). Could argue that it's closer to 8-9 but that's missing the point I was making, which is that it's terrible on its own.

And since I said I had it add 20 massive criticals which tripled its value (and mentioned a value of 10), that would imply it went from adding 10 crit damage to 30 crit damage, which would indicate it stacks.

[Aelis Eine]

IMO, if you make a Dev Crit build, you should build for AB and DC to proc a Dev Crit - Great Cleave chain. Dual wielding Kukris doesn't give you extra chances to land Dev Crits during a Great Cleave chain, and it loses DC to get to 15 Dex so it's a waste unless we're talking about some kind of PvP-oriented HiPS build that relies on the starting flurry to kill.

I find that Bard 20/RDD 10/Any Fighter class 10 makes the most effective Dev Critters. 16 Starting Strength, all points into Strength and Great Strength VI. Compared to the OP's build it gets an effective +10 to Dev Crit DC. Assuming a +5 Weapon and max Strength from items on both characters, it's DC 43 vs DC 51 + 2 (Curse Song). Against a creature with 41 Fort, that's a 5% chance to proc instant death per crit vs. 55%. The Bard/RDD also gets more AC to boot.

For a 0 downtime heavy armor fighter with immunities and good mitigation I'd probably go with a Paladin 26/Sorc 4/RDD 10. The fire immunity covers most spells that allow Evasion and the Paralysis and Fear immunities cover most mind effects. It still gets good AC and the RDD stats help with the diluted stat spread. Of course it still has buffs but the only one you really need is Divine Favor. Aura of Glory + Eagle's only if you don't have the Cha from items and Greater Magic Weapon/Holy Sword only if you don't have a +5 weapon.

[MagicalMaster]

Aelis Eine wrote...

IMO, if you make a Dev Crit build, you should build for AB and DC to proc a Dev Crit - Great Cleave chain. Dual wielding Kukris doesn't give you extra chances to land Dev Crits during a Great Cleave chain, and it loses DC to get to 15 Dex so it's a waste unless we're talking about some kind of PvP-oriented HiPS build that relies on the starting flurry to kill.

If auto-fail on 1 is enabled, it gives more chances to fail.

[WhiZard]

MagicalMaster wrote...

I'm aware.

Which, when you look at the breakdown of the weapons, averages out to about 10 (x2 weapons do 7, x2 weapons with WM do 10.5, x3 weapons do 10.5, x3 weapons with WM do 14). Could argue that it's closer to 8-9 but that's missing the point I was making, which is that it's terrible on its own.

And since I said I had it add 20 massive criticals which tripled its value (and mentioned a value of 10), that would imply it went from adding 10 crit damage to 30 crit damage, which would indicate it stacks.

Correct, which for WMs makes +10.5 being at the low end for overwhelming criticals.  Compare to epic weapon specialization (gives +4 for all blows).  The WMs threat range is maxed at 11/20 (10-20) for x3 (upgraded x2), and maxed at 5/20 (16-20) for x4 or x5.  Given that a good investment in WM cranks up the AB significantly to allow a better chance for the huge (10-20) range than other builds would have trouble in making, the x4 comes slightly below EWS expectation while x3 and x5 are arguably higher.  Thus, for a strength based WM, overwhelming critical and EWS are of nigh equal value (except when it comes to crit immune, or the conflict with ki damage, in which case you would save your ki damage for only the crit immune).

[Aelis Eine]

MagicalMaster wrote...

Aelis Eine wrote...

IMO, if you make a Dev Crit build, you should build for AB and DC to proc a Dev Crit - Great Cleave chain. Dual wielding Kukris doesn't give you extra chances to land Dev Crits during a Great Cleave chain, and it loses DC to get to 15 Dex so it's a waste unless we're talking about some kind of PvP-oriented HiPS build that relies on the starting flurry to kill.

If auto-fail on 1 is enabled, it gives more chances to fail.

I specifically said "during a Great Cleave chain". Dual wielding does not allow an offhand attack on your Great Cleave. You only get 1 shot per mob, so it makes more sense to get DC as high as possible on that shot.

If we're talking about a non Great Cleave context, that means the thing you're trying to kill isn't trash, and if it isn't trash, chances are it shouldn't be able to get Dev Critted in the first place.

[MagicalMaster]

Aelis Eine wrote...

I specifically said "during a Great Cleave chain". Dual wielding does not allow an offhand attack on your Great Cleave. You only get 1 shot per mob, so it makes more sense to get DC as high as possible on that shot.

You also continued and said

"and it loses DC to get to 15 Dex so it's a waste unless we're talking
about some kind of PvP-oriented HiPS build that relies on the starting
flurry to kill."

You mentioned two scenarios:

1. Great Cleave chain
2. Some kind of HiPS PvP build

I brought up a third:

3, trying to provoke an autofail

Aelis Eine wrote...

If we're talking about a non Great Cleave context, that means the thing you're trying to kill isn't trash, and if it isn't trash, chances are it shouldn't be able to get Dev Critted in the first place.

Depends completely on the environment.

Also, in a higher magic environment, many of them don't balance 1H versus 2H well and dual-wielding winds up being far better damage.  Meaning that while your DC for Dev Crit might be 1-2 lower, you have far more overall damage.

[Shadooow]

WhiZard wrote...

Thus, for a strength based WM, overwhelming critical and EWS are of nigh equal value (except when it comes to crit immune, or the conflict with ki damage, in which case you would save your ki damage for only the crit immune).

This all is very dependant on environment and build. If a dev is not an option for any reasons, it still depends on what is required, the more feats you need the less worth to take OCH without dev. Especially if the build itself, just like the one OP described has less feats than usual.

But strength has no influence on the OCH, its benefits are the same for dexterity build. What makes it more valuable is high crit range. EDIT: well since you need 23str anyway, every char using OCH will be likely STR based anyway

btw Aelis, I believe that you cant chain greater cleave with dev crit - it will not work correctly in most cases.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 01 décembre 2012 - 10:14 .

[Aelis Eine]

Granted, straight up, dual wielding increases hits per round by ~24% after accounting for misses due to -2 AB. However, unless the character is a Ranger, dual Kukris is an investment of 4 feats. Therefore opportunity costs factor in. For example, possible damage loss due to lack of of Epic Weapon Spec, or AB and damage loss due to lower Strength to take 15 Dex will tip the scales in favor of single wielding.

Even with the minimum damage gap of 8 (6 from Spec, 1 from Strength, 1 from Scimitar average damage over Kukri), assuming characters are Hasted, weapons would need to grant more than +5 and +2d6 damage just for dual wielding to break even when hitting mobs 1 AC lower than the single wielder's best attack. And this is not counting the dual wielder's lower AB from lower Strength, or the halved Strength bonus from offhand attacks, which will raise the break even point even further.

In other words, unless we are talking about very very high damage on weapons, or very very low ACs on targets, a Strength-based character is usually better off trying to raise their damage through other means than dual wielding.

ShaDoOoW wrote...

btw Aelis, I believe that you cant chain greater cleave with dev crit - it will not work correctly in most cases.

I think it depends on the part of the flurry. I can't remember if it was the first hit or last hit. But anyone playing a Dev Crit character fighting mobs of low fort enemies should be familiar with the Dev Crit -> Great Cleave: Critical Hit -> Dev Crit -> Great Cleave: Critical Hit -> Dev Crit chain. Even at best though, that only has a 16.5% chance of happening per spawn of 3.

Modifié par Aelis Eine, 01 décembre 2012 - 01:58 .