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[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

I always like to whip out my Thought Process Idea in cases like these, but I'm tired of spamming it.

I'm skimming through this thread, so forgive me if I'm wrong. But doesn't Deus Ex: Human Revolution implement the exact solution Imperator is suggesting?

Modifié par CrustyBot, 25 novembre 2012 - 10:16 .

[ImperatorMortis]

CrustyBot wrote...

Doesn't Deus Ex: Human Revolution implement the exact solution Imperator is suggesting?

Have my babies. 

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

IIRC even the full text line does not always represent everything Adam ends up saying. It can only show as much as the UI is built to display.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 25 novembre 2012 - 10:18 .

[Xewaka]

Pseudocognition wrote...

IIRC even the full text line does not always represent everything Adam ends up saying. It can only show as much as the UI is built to display.

However, 90% of the total line is much, much better than "Take a f*ing guess, because we're not telling what's coming out of the PC's mouth unless too late".

Modifié par Xewaka, 25 novembre 2012 - 10:21 .

[nightscrawl]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Whats wrong with hovering over a choice for a set ammount of time, and having the dialogue appear on screen? Thats almost exactly what happens with NPC dialogue.

This has been suggested before and it is my preferred solution, but they do NOT want to show the full line. The devs don't want it in their game, and no arguments from fans will change it.

David Gaider wrote...

Okay, last time I will go through this particular argument-- in the future, I'll simply link to this if I must.

Displaying the full text of the line for a voiced PC does not work for us. We investigated it. We tried it out, and discussed it, and ultimately discarded the idea.

I get that some people feel they need all the information in order to make their dialogue choice-- and they feel that seeing the entire line displayed for them will give them that information. It won't. Or, I should say, it will... but it will break down just as often as paraphrases do. Which is to say not very often, but often enough that you remember the situations where that happens. The only way that wouldn't be the case is if we started writing player lines as if the PC weren't voiced, as in Origins.

Also, there are a significant number of people who would be greatly annoyed by reading the entire line and then having it repeated to them verbatim. Your response might be "well, they shouldn't select that option then." But many people will. They'll see it in the list of options and think "oh, that's an option that will give me more information? More information is better!" and they'll select it... and then be annoyed by the result. So we would be trading one group of people who believe this is what they want for another group who would take the option and make it a poorer experience for themselves.

And, yes, that is something we must concern ourselves with. We do not offer, support and test options unless we believe they work as a viable option for the game as we intend it to be played. And you might say to that "well, I think it would make the game better for me", but I'd suggest you're largely wrong in that. It doesn't actually address your base problem, which is with the voiced PC. At best we'd be going out of our way to not really solve your issue while actively making the game worse for others.

This is not to say there aren't things we can do to make the system better other than simply being more rigorous with our use of paraphrases. Not being as anal about not repeating words and phrases between the paraphrase and the actual line(s) is one, but there are others... which we will discuss at a later time. Displaying the full line is not, however, going to be one of those things.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 25 novembre 2012 - 10:23 .

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Xewaka wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

IIRC even the full text line does not always represent everything Adam ends up saying. It can only show as much as the UI is built to display.

However, 90% of the total line is much, much better than "Take a f*ing guess, because you have no idea what's coming".

We'll just have to talk to each other through the slats of that particular fence lol.

Anyway, Gaider has already shot down this style of conversation UI.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 25 novembre 2012 - 10:24 .

[ImperatorMortis]

Pseudocognition wrote...

IIRC even the full text line does not represent everything Adam ends up saying.

Buts enough so that you don't have any nasty surprises. 

Xewaka wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

IIRC even the full text line does not always represent everything Adam ends up saying. It can only show as much as the UI is built to display.

However, 90% of the total line is much, much better than "Take a f*ing guess, because we're not telling what's coming out of the PC's mouth unless too late".

This. Thats all I was saying. 

I really don't get why some of these dudes had to jump on me over a suggestion, and try to tell me that this was some impossible/ridiculous suggestion. 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 25 novembre 2012 - 10:30 .

[ImperatorMortis]

Pseudocognition wrote...

We'll just have to talk to each other through the slats of that particular fence lol.

Anyway, Gaider has already shot down this style of conversation UI.

Didn't know Gaider had the final, end all say in the development process. 

[Plaintiff]

ImperatorMortis wrote...
I want to disagree with someone; not scream at the top of my lungs, and cannibalize them in front of their children. 

When did this ever happen? That's the best dialogue option ever.

[Fredward]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

We'll just have to talk to each other through the slats of that particular fence lol.

Anyway, Gaider has already shot down this style of conversation UI.

Didn't know Gaider had the final, end all say in the development process. 

He is in the writing process tho. And I think dialogue and it's implementation falls under his domain. Think I say. xp

[Maria Caliban]

Plaintiff wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...
I want to disagree with someone; not scream at the top of my lungs, and cannibalize them in front of their children. 

When did this ever happen? That's the best dialogue option ever.

It was an aggressive option that said [Let me make you dinner].

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Didn't know Gaider had the final, end all say in the development process. 

He is in the writing process tho. And I think dialogue and it's implementation falls under his domain. Think I say. xp

Paraphrases are a UI issue. I doubt the writers have anything to do with whether they're used or not.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 25 novembre 2012 - 10:34 .

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Didn't know Gaider had the final, end all say in the development process. 

I dunno, lead writer might have something to do with dialogue.

[HurricaneGinger]

I forget what it was called, but I played a game where you could read exactly what the protagonist's VA would say word for word. I thought it would be cool, and save me from scarring NPCs with my protagonist's misplaced fury.

This was me within five minutes:

Like you, I thought it would be a good idea to see fully what my character would say. WRONG. Why read it, then hear him or her say it a second later? It is too time-consuming and frustrating.

If BioWare were to implement your roll-over mechanic, then I suppose it wouldn't be so bad because I at least have the option not to do it. Otherwise, if I wanted to read what my character would say then I'd support a silent protagonist. But I don't.

[BanksHector]

I never really looked at the paraphasing much in DA2 and would just basically just go by the tone icon. It would be ok for me to have th full line shown, but as long as the icons are around, I will just end up picking my choice from them most times without reading the paraphase or full line if it was there.

[Islandrockzor]

They could write the paraphrases in Elcor.

"Hostile: No."
"Badassly: No"
Etc.

[Maria Caliban]

PhantomGinger wrote...

Like you, I thought it would be a good idea to see fully what my character would say. WRONG.

I've played game with PCVO and full text. It never bothered me.

[Conduit0]

Xewaka wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

IIRC even the full text line does not always represent everything Adam ends up saying. It can only show as much as the UI is built to display.

However, 90% of the total line is much, much better than "Take a f*ing guess, because we're not telling what's coming out of the PC's mouth unless too late".

I'll admit that there were a couple badly worded paraphrases, but the vast majority accurately got the point across. Maybe you just need better reading comprehension, in which case, the full text likely wouldn't help you anyways.
:innocent:

[ImperatorMortis]

Pseudocognition wrote...
I dunno, lead writer might have something to do with dialogue.

Writing dialogue =/= implementing an option in game to see dialogue that was already written. 

nightscrawl wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Whats wrong with hovering over a choice for a set ammount of time, and having the dialogue appear on screen? Thats almost exactly what happens with NPC dialogue.

This has been suggested before and it is my preferred solution, but they do NOT want to show the full line. The devs don't want it in their game, and no arguments from fans will change it.

David Gaider wrote...

Okay, last time I will go through this particular argument-- in the future, I'll simply link to this if I must.

Displaying the full text of the line for a voiced PC does not work for us. We investigated it. We tried it out, and discussed it, and ultimately discarded the idea.

I get that some people feel they need all the information in order to make their dialogue choice-- and they feel that seeing the entire line displayed for them will give them that information. It won't. Or, I should say, it will... but it will break down just as often as paraphrases do. Which is to say not very often, but often enough that you remember the situations where that happens. The only way that wouldn't be the case is if we started writing player lines as if the PC weren't voiced, as in Origins.

Also, there are a significant number of people who would be greatly annoyed by reading the entire line and then having it repeated to them verbatim. Your response might be "well, they shouldn't select that option then." But many people will. They'll see it in the list of options and think "oh, that's an option that will give me more information? More information is better!" and they'll select it... and then be annoyed by the result. So we would be trading one group of people who believe this is what they want for another group who would take the option and make it a poorer experience for themselves.

And, yes, that is something we must concern ourselves with. We do not offer, support and test options unless we believe they work as a viable option for the game as we intend it to be played. And you might say to that "well, I think it would make the game better for me", but I'd suggest you're largely wrong in that. It doesn't actually address your base problem, which is with the voiced PC. At best we'd be going out of our way to not really solve your issue while actively making the game worse for others.

This is not to say there aren't things we can do to make the system better other than simply being more rigorous with our use of paraphrases. Not being as anal about not repeating words and phrases between the paraphrase and the actual line(s) is one, but there are others... which we will discuss at a later time. Displaying the full line is not, however, going to be one of those things.

Who's to say opinions can't change? 

But alright. Its most likely not gonna change, and I can deal. I think its incredibly silly, but whatever. There are bigger fish to fry. 

[HurricaneGinger]

Maria Caliban wrote...

PhantomGinger wrote...

Like you, I thought it would be a good idea to see fully what my character would say. WRONG.

I've played game with PCVO and full text. It never bothered me.

Then you're lucky, because it bothered the hell out of me. 

I'm holy now, and being a ginger...that's an issue.

Modifié par PhantomGinger, 25 novembre 2012 - 10:37 .

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...
I dunno, lead writer might have something to do with dialogue.

Writing dialogue =/= implementing an option in game to see dialogue that was already written. 

You have it backwards. They do not write dialogue and then decide how to display it. They decide that first and then construct the dialogue to fit that system.

[ImperatorMortis]

PhantomGinger wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

PhantomGinger wrote...

Like you, I thought it would be a good idea to see fully what my character would say. WRONG.

I've played game with PCVO and full text. It never bothered me.

Then you're lucky, because it bothered the hell out of me. 

Why does it bother you?

Islandrockzor wrote...

They could write the paraphrases in Elcor.

"Hostile: No."
"Badassly: No"
Etc.

This would actually be a significant improvement. 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 25 novembre 2012 - 10:42 .

[Fredward]

Conduit0 wrote...

I'll admit that there were a couple badly worded paraphrases, but the vast majority accurately got the point across. Maybe you just need better reading comprehension, in which case, the full text likely wouldn't help you anyways.
:innocent:

Rawr kitties got MOAR claws. XD


Playing the Witcher and having the lines read back to me almost drove me insane.

[ianvillan]

We have been hearing the same dev argument about how they are going to make paraphrasing better for years now yet it is still the same as when it started.

ME1 had paraphrasing fans complained Bioware said they would make it better.
ME2 had the same problems with paraphrasing and fans complained, Bioware said they will make it better.
ME3 still had the same problems with paraphrasing as the first two games.

When it was announced that DA2 would have the dialogue wheel Bioware said that they knew the fan complaints about paraphrasing and would make it so there was no problems. Yet all they did was add the icons which did nothing to make paraphrasing better and fans still complained about how bad the paraphrasing was.

So here we are again complaining about paraphrasing and Bioware still says the same thing how they listened to the complaints and are going to make paraphrasing better.

I believe that as long as Bioware will continue to keep the dialogue wheel and paraphrasing and refuse to change them paraphrasing will always be a problem. Is it actually possible to know what your character is going to say if you only have a fraction of the information availiable to you.

[Xewaka]

David Gaider wrote...

We do not offer, support and test options unless we believe they work as a viable option for the game as we intend it to be played. And you might say to that "well, I think it would make the game better for me", but I'd suggest you're largely wrong in that. It doesn't actually address your base problem, which is with the voiced PC. At best we'd be going out of our way to not really solve your issue while actively making the game worse for others.

I like how WRONG it is in this particularly stance. I have extensively played games with full voiced PC and full line dialogue options. Never once the voice caused a problem. For reference, here's a (not comprehensive) list of games pointing at his wrongness:
Grim Fandango
Simon the Sorcerer (I and II)
Full Throttle
Sam'n'Max Hit the Road
The Secret of Monkey Island 3
Again, all these games have fully voiced characters and full line dialogue choices. In none of them the voiced character supposed an issue. Do not assume we've not done our homework either.

[ImperatorMortis]

ianvillan wrote...

We have been hearing the same dev argument about how they are going to make paraphrasing better for years now yet it is still the same as when it started.

ME1 had paraphrasing fans complained Bioware said they would make it better.
ME2 had the same problems with paraphrasing and fans complained, Bioware said they will make it better.
ME3 still had the same problems with paraphrasing as the first two games.

When it was announced that DA2 would have the dialogue wheel Bioware said that they knew the fan complaints about paraphrasing and would make it so there was no problems. Yet all they did was add the icons which did nothing to make paraphrasing better and fans still complained about how bad the paraphrasing was.

So here we are again complaining about paraphrasing and Bioware still says the same thing how they listened to the complaints and are going to make paraphrasing better.

I believe that as long as Bioware will continue to keep the dialogue wheel and paraphrasing and refuse to change them paraphrasing will always be a problem. Is it actually possible to know what your character is going to say if you only have a fraction of the information availiable to you.

Pretty much this. I think its safe to say that nothing is going to be done about the paraphrasing.