224 réponses à ce sujet

[nightscrawl]

I frequently watch subtitled tv shows and movies (yes my hearing is perfectly fine). I play DA2 with the subtitles turned on as well, so I'm hearing the NPC speak and reading his or her dialog. I also REALLY ENJOY the voiced PC, so much so in fact that it is difficult to play DAO again after a spate of DA2 plays. Yes, I do know with 100% surety that I would prefer the full line so I can read and hear it. David Gaider does not speak for me about this particular issue.

What would probably happen during a full line play for me would be that I would skim read the full line option, and then when the PC actually speaks I would read the line (subtitles on) along with the voice over. Unless there is a particularly tough moral choice where I will mull over all of the lines for a while, I think most of it would be a skim to determine if my character will say anything egregious. The missing vocal tone does not matter in that case. For example, I know I would not have picked the "humorous" line about boneless bodies flopping around had I been able to read the full line. That is not something I would ever have a PC say.

That said, I realize that this does not apply to all players. I also am pleased that they recognize some issues with their rules for writing paraphrases, are willing to improve, and am willing to wait and see how it turns out.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 25 novembre 2012 - 10:00 .

[Brockololly]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
Human Revolution frequently does not display the entire line.  Sometimes whole sentences of what Jensen is going to say is omitted, as well as other alterations that I assume occur due to space limitations.

Right, but very frequently, the "paraphrase" text shows up exactly in the spoken dialogue, even if extra stuff is added. In playing the Walking Dead, I noticed I enjoyed the lines or felt more in control of what Lee was saying when the paraphrased line showed up exactly in the spoken response, even if there was more to the spoken response than just the paraphrase text. As opposed to what seems typical with BioWare's dialogue wheel games where the text making up the paraphrase is rarely part of the spoken dialogue of the character at all. To me, that leads to more reloading or "Oh **** that is not what I wanted to say" moments. If you at least have the paraphrase text part of the spoken dialogue, I find that helps immensely in maintaining a sense of player agency, even if you're not displaying the full spoken response beforehand.

[Taint Master]

The Walking Dead has a really good dialogue system as well. Often times the selections are repeated by Lee (the PC) word for word, with following lines expounding upon what was said. Other times he'll paraphrase the line but in a clear manner.

I've never found myself choosing a line in that game and getting a response that was incongruent with the implied meaning, where as I've had that happen several times in DA2 and ME games.

[Allan Schumacher]

Right, but very frequently, the "paraphrase" text shows up exactly in the spoken dialogue.....

Sorry, I'm not getting dragged back into this discussion at this time.

I was just pointing out that people misrepresent what Human Revolution does because I see it put forward that way all the time.

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

or maybe we can reload dialogues, instead of having to replay a few hours

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

naughty99 wrote...

I suppose I prefer silent protagonist, but if it is voiced, paraphrasing is better than reading and then hearing the same thing again, as long as the paraphrase somewhat accurately represents the response.

What if it is somewhat NOT accurate representing your intent?

Then you have three options, of which you can pick as many as you like:

1) Broaden your intent so that more outcomes can comfortably fit within it.  This will not remove all incongruencies, just most of them.

Why would I settle for a technique that is not  100% working?

 

Upsettingshorts wrote... 
2) Accept that understanding how paraphrases work in games is a skill, and try to get better at predicting them.  It would help if the paraphrases and icons (from DA2) were better for this reason.

How about understanding how we communicate with our own intent in real life, instead of polishing skill to understand  the broken mechanism in a game? 


 

Upsettingshorts wrote... 

3) Give up the expectation that BioWare makes games for you anymore, or at least games you can continue to play in a way that you've been accustomed to, and either don't buy them or play them differently.

This is not the first time you advocate not to buy BioWare game. What is your position? You are neither BioWare employee or forum moderator.  I will decide myself whether the game is worth my money or not. I do not ask for your opinion in that matter. 

Your reply is offensive, I suggest you to shut up. 

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 25 novembre 2012 - 11:19 .

[upsettingshorts]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Why would I settle for a technique that is not  100% working?

I don't know, how many more developer posts saying paraphrasing is going to be in the next game do you need?

Settle or don't.  But you do not get to have exclusive right to express frustration with discussion of this tiresome topic.

 

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
How about understanding how we communicate with our own intent in real life, instead of polishing skill to understand  the broken mechanism in a game?

It seems, based upon your response, that your understanding of how to communicate in real life is what is broken.

 

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

This is not the first time you advocate not to buy BioWare game. What is your position? You are neither BioWare employee or forum moderator.  I will decide myself whether the game is worth my money or not. I do not ask for your opinion in that matter. 

Your reply is offensive, I suggest you to shut up. 

Oh dear, I must have misunderstood the purpose of discussion forums.  Perhaps BioWare will find some nominal role for me so that I might be granted Sacred_Fantasy's leave to have an opinion in his lofty presence.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 25 novembre 2012 - 11:32 .

[CENIC]

CrustyBot wrote...

DA3 doesn't need the CASIE stuff, but I'd love love love that dialogue wheel.

[Maria Caliban]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Human Revolution frequently does not display the entire line.  Sometimes whole sentences of what Jensen is going to say is omitted, as well as other alterations that I assume occur due to space limitations.

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I was just pointing out that people misrepresent what Human Revolution does because I see it put forward that way all the time.

I don't think people misrepresent what DE:HR does. I think the English language and reader expectation works against them.

If I say that Human Revolution uses one word Intent on the conversation wheel and a box with full text, people don't read 'full text' as 'not paraphrased.' They assume it's like DA:O where that line of text is all that the character will say.

If I say that Human Revolution uses one word Intent on the conversation wheel and a box with a line of dialogue. People don't think that the conversation might be several lines of dialogue long, but that it's like DA:O where you get one line per conversation node.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Why would I settle for a technique that is not  100% working?

I don't know, how many more developer posts saying paraphrasing is going to be in the next game do you need?

Settle or don't.  But you do not get to have exclusive right to express frustration with discussion of this tiresome topic.

 

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
How about understanding how we communicate with our own intent in real life, instead of polishing skill to understand  the broken mechanism in a game?

It seems, based upon your response, that your understanding of how to communicate in real life is what is broken.

I don't even bother to reply this rubbish.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

 

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

This is not the first time you advocate not to buy BioWare game. What is your position? You are neither BioWare employee or forum moderator.  I will decide myself whether the game is worth my money or not. I do not ask for your opinion in that matter. 

Your reply is offensive, I suggest you to shut up. 

Oh dear, I must have misunderstood the purpose of discussion forums.  Perhaps BioWare will find some nominal role for me so that I might be granted Sacred_Fantasy's leave to have an opinion in his lofty presence.

Perhaps they should grant you the official forum troll role since you actively "persuade" other people who disagree with you to quit BioWare games and forum. 

Edit: It would be my pleasure to block all your post from viewing, but block list feature on BSN doesn't allow that. That's very unfortunate. 

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 26 novembre 2012 - 12:29 .

[ImperatorMortis]

xsdob wrote...

Have you ever played deus ex human revolution OP? Would that dialouge choice system be similar to what your looking for?

Yeah. I have the game, and yes it would. Even though Deus Ex:HR doesn't show everything. It does say enough that I don't have to worry much about nasty surprises. Or having "I didn't want to say that!" moments. 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 26 novembre 2012 - 12:33 .

[naughty99]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

naughty99 wrote...
I read quite fast, and it is incredibly annoying to read the entire text of your response and then hear the voice actor say the exact same thing you just read.

Voice actor? You mean like, Mark Meer or Jennifer Hale say the same  you just read for Shepard? That's very weird way to view communication.

naughty99 wrote...

You just end up skipping past the voice acted part.

You end up skipping past the voice acted part anyway, if you're constantly frustrated with misleadinge paraphrased text. I know I skip the paraphrased dialogue all the times,only to choose tones icons all the way and press escape button everytime Shepard or Hawke open his mouth.   

naughty99 wrote...

I suppose I prefer silent protagonist, but if it is voiced, paraphrasing is better than reading and then hearing the same thing again, as long as the paraphrase somewhat accurately represents the response.

What if it is somewhat NOT accurate representing your intent?

1. yes, I believe the OP is requesting that the complete text of each dialogue be posted for you to read, then select, and then you will hear the protagonist voice actor say aloud what you just read a few seconds ago. This would be much more annoying than having the paraphrasing be slightly misleading.

2. I don't skip past voice acted parts unless I've already played the game previously and I already know the cinematic. If the voice acted dialogue is identical to what I just read, however, which was the case with Arcania Gothic 4, then yes, it would be annoying and I would skip it. 

3. Hopefully the team will make an effort to make the paraphrased responses relatively accurate. Misleading paraphrased responses was not the most significant problem with DA2, for example. I seem to recall only a couple of dialogue responses like that out of the thousands of dialogue responses in the game.

[Twisted Path]

hobbit_of_the_shire wrote...

I agree that showing the entire fully voiced dialogue is not good, because that's kinda redundant. However, I NEED to know the intent of what my PC is about say. That can be in the form of:

1) A sentence or phrase from the voiced dialogue.
e.g. If Hawke says, "You know, Isabela, I know you're used to getting your way with people by showing a little skin or sweet-talking, but your tactics aren't going to work on me," then the text should be, "Your tactics aren't going to work on me."
Short and sweet and I know what my PC is going to say. I just don't know every word, but I fully know his/her intent.

2) Don't show dialogue, but just the action or intent.
e.g. Taking the example from the above, the text could be, "Tell Isabela her flirtations have no effect on me."

Just these 2 options would make me sooo much happier! I'm at the point of distrusting the paraphrasing and then just choosing from the wheel labels. I'm reading the text and then thinking, hmm... is that what Hawke is really going to say, then looking at the icons and going, hmm, probably not, and then choosing from the icons. And I end up right. Which is dumb because that means the icons are more useful than the paraphrasing.

Either of these ideas sound like really simple and elegant ways of fixing the problems people have with paraphrasing. I especially like the idea of not trying to be overly clever and just putting a really condensed version of the actual voiced dialogue up as the paraphrase.

Please implement something like this Bioware. I bet it would lead to a lot less complaints from people who prefer silent protagonists with dialogue trees over the paraphrase-wheel.

[Conduit0]

I've played three games with Bioware's conversation wheel, ME2, ME3, and DA2. Three games, with a dozen playthroughs between them, representing hundreds of hours of playtime, and a veritable mountain of dialogue, and I can honestly say that I can count on one hand the number of times I've had a "wtf, thats not what I thought (s)he was going to say" moment.

So I can only come to the conclusion that the complainers are grossly exaggerating the issue, and to be blunt, if you need to exaggerate to make a point, you don't have a valid argument to begin with.

[ImperatorMortis]

Conduit0 wrote...

I've played three games with Bioware's conversation wheel, ME2, ME3, and DA2. Three games, with a dozen playthroughs between them, representing hundreds of hours of playtime, and a veritable mountain of dialogue, and I can honestly say that I can count on one hand the number of times I've had a "wtf, thats not what I thought (s)he was going to say" moment.

So I can only come to the conclusion that the complainers are grossly exaggerating the issue, and to be blunt, if you need to exaggerate to make a point, you don't have a valid argument to begin with.

Because your personal point of view disproves everyones elses right?

Also I love how much this seems to bother you. 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 26 novembre 2012 - 01:37 .

[Leanansidhe]

Conduit0 wrote...

I've played three games with Bioware's conversation wheel, ME2, ME3, and DA2. Three games, with a dozen playthroughs between them, representing hundreds of hours of playtime, and a veritable mountain of dialogue, and I can honestly say that I can count on one hand the number of times I've had a "wtf, thats not what I thought (s)he was going to say" moment.

For me, as well.

As a matter of fact, the only time I've ever been totally confused by dialogue lines was in DA:O.  Yes, Origins.  The game that everyone on the "silent protag or die!" side keeps touting.

When you bring Alistair to Redcliffe for the first time, and he's telling you about being Maric's son.  The line, "So, you're not only a bastard, you're a royal bastard?"  I would NEVER, EVER say that.  Ever.  To me that sounds horrible.  Why would you ever say that to someone unless you were being a major jerk?  I had no idea that it was supposed to be a joke.  Even after I found that out, I still won't say it.  It's just a nasty thing to say to someone.  

That's just one of the lines I had a problem with.  Things that you think are innocuous, make people angry.  Things that you think are funny, upset people.  You think you're just commenting on Leli's hair, and the next thing you know, she's accusing you of cheating on her.  It's insane.

Give me the dialogue wheel everytime.  At least with DA2, you could extrapolate where you were going with any given conversation.  If you couldn't, I'm sorry.  But, I don't want them to go back to having a silent protag.  That's the one thing that would make me think twice about getting the game, and my money is just as good as yours. 

Quit trying to force ALL RPG's into this narrow little box you've got in your head.  There's room for all types of story based games.  BioWare has been headed in this direction FOR YEARS.  Don't act like this is something surprising.

If you don't like the direction, I'm sorry.  But, I do.  I personally think the last few games they've put out have been amazing.  And, yes, I've been a fan since '98, so don't try to pull that "old-school" elitist bs on me.  I'm about as old-school as you can get.
Peace

[Eternal Phoenix]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Have you ever played deus ex human revolution OP? Would that dialouge choice system be similar to what your looking for?

Yeah. I have the game, and yes it would. Even though Deus Ex:HR doesn't show everything. It does say enough that I don't have to worry much about nasty surprises. Or having "I didn't want to say that!" moments. 

This.

Human Revolution's text boxes were not always be accurate to the letter but they gave you the general words that Jensen was going to say. Mass Effect and Dragon Age 2 on the otherhand occansionally presented dialogue choices in certain ways and when they were spoken they never came out as such.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 26 novembre 2012 - 02:21 .

[Conduit0]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Conduit0 wrote...

I've played three games with Bioware's conversation wheel, ME2, ME3, and DA2. Three games, with a dozen playthroughs between them, representing hundreds of hours of playtime, and a veritable mountain of dialogue, and I can honestly say that I can count on one hand the number of times I've had a "wtf, thats not what I thought (s)he was going to say" moment.

So I can only come to the conclusion that the complainers are grossly exaggerating the issue, and to be blunt, if you need to exaggerate to make a point, you don't have a valid argument to begin with.

Because your personal point of view disproves everyones elses right?

Also I love how much this seems to bother you. 

Except its not a point of view, whether I understood the paraphrases or not is not a subjective idea, its very much objective, either I understood what the paraphrase was trying to say, or I didn't. So thereforemy statement is an objective assessment of the paraphrase system.

Unless you're suggesting that my ability to comprehend the paraphrase system vastly surpasses that of the average person and thus my experience is not a valid metric, in which case I would have to suggest that the bulk of the problem likely lies outside the game.

Also, this only bothers me slightly less than it apparently bothers you. :innocent:

[Eternal Phoenix]

SKRemaks wrote...

When you bring Alistair to Redcliffe for the first time, and he's telling you about being Maric's son.  The line, "So, you're not only a bastard, you're a royal bastard?"  I would NEVER, EVER say that.  Ever.  To me that sounds horrible.  Why would you ever say that to someone unless you were being a major jerk?  I had no idea that it was supposed to be a joke.  Even after I found that out, I still won't say it.  It's just a nasty thing to say to someone.  

That's just one of the lines I had a problem with.  Things that you think are innocuous, make people angry.  Things that you think are funny, upset people.  You think you're just commenting on Leli's hair, and the next thing you know, she's accusing you of cheating on her.  It's insane.

Well it can be meant in both ways and Alistair being sarcastic simply shurgs it off or says something sarcastic in response just as he does when Morrigan insults him (who he makes clear that he hates). I'm pretty sure the hair thing and Lelianna accusing you of cheating is due to incorrect scripting. It other words it's a bug. I read on the DA wikia that she may also sometimes accuse a female human noble of cheating on her if they marry Alistair even if they never entered a romance with her.

So the dialogue trees remains the superior dialogue system. Only the dialogue wheel from Deus Ex: HR is comparable because at least you get the general idea of what Jensen is going to say whereas with ME or DA2 you feel like you're taking a gamble sometimes.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 26 novembre 2012 - 02:28 .

[upsettingshorts]

 

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Perhaps they should grant you the official forum troll role since you actively "persuade" other people who disagree with you to quit BioWare games and forum.

There is a world of difference between this and what I actually do.

You're in this thread saying people who subvocalize are "weird" and asserting a system BioWare has chosen to use in four straight games - five with DA3 - is "100% broken."  

My "offensive" post is simply a summary of how compatible these notions are with the present state of affairs.  As such, you can either choose to adapt, opt out, or - and I assume this is the option you're going with - continue to tell everyone who actually likes voiceovers and paraphrases that they're wrong.

In any case, this is not the first time you've decided to take personal offense at my posts for no good reason:

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Yup, I've been around since BG1, but since I've always played them as third person games the introduction of a VA and paraphrase don't seem like a big deal to me and something of a natural step forward.  In fact, if I had never started posting on or reading the BSN, it wouldn't have occurred to me that anyone thought otherwise. The fact that many simply assume that such changes could only possibly appeal to some "new" audience implies that those who treated such games as a first person narrative may not have realized that there has always been another way to approach Bioware games either.  That isn't to dismiss that playstyle, far from it, only that there have always been two valid ways to play and that for one of them the introduction of a VA/paraphrase/cinematics isn't as big a change as it would be to the other one.

Fact is Bioware's recent offerings are polarizing because they basically made a choice. That choice was to make the third person experience explicit. This is usually associated with the "cinematic" buzzword. That's why you get some people who really love it (third person) and some people who really hate it (first person) and not a lot of middle ground - which is what polarizing means - because Bioware has effectively chosen a playstyle to endorse with their feature changes after implicitly supporting both.

Are you implying some people (first person-majority of Elder Scroll Fans) should leave Bioware games alone since it doesn't cater to their perception? 

No, I'm simply attempting to describe the situation, not making any specific recommendations.  

That being said, Bethesda and Bioware make very different games and have for some time.  I think they both have their place for what they are and what they try to do.  I'm not sure one could really incorporate what the other is best at without compromising something important along the way.

But seriously, nothing substantial has changed from either of our positions - OR THIS ENTIRE DEBATE - since over a year ago.

Except BioWare picked paraphrases again.  It will be at least a year before anyone has a chance to respond to DA3's approach, and who knows how many years beyond that before a hypothetical fully-lined, silent-protagonist, non-cinematic game will be released that you'd actually enthusiastically endorse.

So maybe specific recommendations are in order now.

In light of the fact the chances of BioWare releasing a game that responds to your specific requests are effectively null for the next 2-3 years, I find it incredible that a poster suggesting that, just maybe, you ought to consider moving on is being "offensive."

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 26 novembre 2012 - 03:16 .

[upsettingshorts]

Conduit0 wrote...

Except its not a point of view, whether I understood the paraphrases or not is not a subjective idea, its very much objective, either I understood what the paraphrase was trying to say, or I didn't. So thereforemy statement is an objective assessment of the paraphrase system.

Unless you're suggesting that my ability to comprehend the paraphrase system vastly surpasses that of the average person and thus my experience is not a valid metric, in which case I would have to suggest that the bulk of the problem likely lies outside the game.

Also, this only bothers me slightly less than it apparently bothers you. :innocent:

I think it has less to do with anyone's relative ability to figure out what the paraphrases mean or are leading to than it does each individual player's expectations regarding control.  

To use a crude metaphor, if I'm expecting something reddish and I get maroon, that's fine.  If someone else is expecting cyan and they get navy blue, that's a big problem for them.  Worse if they get teal.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 26 novembre 2012 - 03:13 .

[Josielyn]

I only remembered 2-3 from the first playthrough on each of 3 games. Then I shamelessly hit reload from my last save (pre-conversation). I wish we could do that in real life "Oh sorry, that is not what I meant, here, let me reload and try again".

[ImperatorMortis]

Josielyn wrote...

I only remembered 2-3 from the first playthrough on each of 3 games. Then I shamelessly hit reload from my last save (pre-conversation). I wish we could do that in real life "Oh sorry, that is not what I meant, here, let me reload and try again".

I'm not gonna lie. I've been guilty of reloading dialgoue choices on more than once occasion. Sucks that I couldn't do that in SWTOR. 

[upsettingshorts]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

I'm not gonna lie. I've been guilty of reloading dialgoue choices on more than once occasion. Sucks that I couldn't do that in SWTOR. 

You have even more freedom to do it in SWTOR.

Just ESC at any point in the conversation and it's completely cleared, allowing you to start over.  

DA and ME do not allow that, though it'd be nice if they did, to benefit folks who truly have difficulty with paraphrased dialogue previews.

[ImperatorMortis]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

I'm not gonna lie. I've been guilty of reloading dialgoue choices on more than once occasion. Sucks that I couldn't do that in SWTOR. 

You have even more freedom to do it in SWTOR.

Just ESC at any point in the conversation and it's completely cleared, allowing you to start over.  

Yeah I know. Its just that sometimes the convo ends after the choice I made. But yeah good point.