363 réponses à ce sujet

[FeralJester616]

Atheosis wrote...

whateverman7 wrote...

Atheosis wrote...

LOL, no it's not...

what's so funny?....i've used both plenty of times....but since you know something i dont, besides weight, in what way(s) is the tempest better than the phaeston?

The Tempest deals better damage while having comparable accuracy.  It has more muzzle climb, but not so much that it can't be easily compensated for.  With the weight difference it's really obvious which gun is better.  The Phaeston feels more powerful, but that is an illusion.

Exactly what I was saying. Thank you Atheosis.

But if you really want proof whateverman7 then test it yourself. If I had the ability to make and post gameplay videos then I would but as I can't why don't you try and test it yourself. Using my sudgestions, time yourself on how long it takes to kill things with the tempest and then the phaeston on the TuriSol. Waves 1-3 of Silver or Gold should prove the point.

[T41rdEye]

ARs need tweaking. Don't deny it.

Most ARs should be heavier (to discourage power users, and/or give AR specializing kits more buffs, like Turian's passives) and more powerful. The difference between a Phaeston and a Harrier shouldn't be so drastic. Ammo supply isn't an issue when theres a usually a box nearby and we have unused thermal-clip packs piling up.

When I start seeing power classes toting Harrier I's (or sometimes lobbies full of Harriers) on a consistent basis, something is amiss. People are using them as crutches on gold/plat... just like they did Cloak, Piranha, etc...

I don't know. Theres just so many "good" ARs that may seem good on Silver, but when you take them to Gold they become tediously slow to kill efficiently. Compare them to the murdertrain Harrier... no wonder gold+ pugs are infested with them.

[ToaOrka]

whateverman7 wrote...

FeralJester616 wrote...

If you look at my post again, you find that at no point do I say that ARs are horrible.
Just that in terms of effectivness there is almost always a better choice. 
In terms of feel however I will always take an AR.
Its just that for the weight they need to be buffed. Don't believe me? Test the TuriSol with just a Tempest and then test it with the Pheaston. Tempest outclasses the Pheaston, but the Pheaston is more fun...

never said you said they were horrible, but that's the overall feel going on
if the AR gets the job done, it's effective....the word you looking for is efficient....in either case, it's not true
i've used both weapons plenty of times, no it doesnt

Turian Soldier with ROF Marksman, Incendiary Ammo IV, reload-canceling:

Tempest DPS (With Amp V and Rail Amp III): 2500
Phaeston DPS (With Amp V and Rail Amp III): 2000

The Tempest also has...

-Higher spare-shot capacity
-Lower weight
-Higher ROF
-More than twice the accuracy

Final Verdict: Tempest > Phaeston

[whateverman7]

Atheosis wrote...

The Tempest deals better damage while having comparable accuracy.  It has more muzzle climb, but not so much that it can't be easily compensated for.  With the weight difference it's really obvious which gun is better.  The Phaeston feels more powerful, but that is an illusion.

the tempest does not deal better damage...why do yall keep saying this? let me guess: dps spreadsheet info....anyway, to continue, the accuracy is not comparable...the phaeston is more accurate and easier to control than the tempest...i agree, the weight is an advantage for the tempest....

as for the last part: so it's an illusion that bars from all enemy types comes off faster with the phaeston than the tempest?...lol if you say so

[ToaOrka]

whateverman7 wrote...

Atheosis wrote...

The Tempest deals better damage while having comparable accuracy.  It has more muzzle climb, but not so much that it can't be easily compensated for.  With the weight difference it's really obvious which gun is better.  The Phaeston feels more powerful, but that is an illusion.

the tempest does not deal better damage...why do yall keep saying this? let me guess: dps spreadsheet info....anyway, to continue, the accuracy is not comparable...the phaeston is more accurate and easier to control than the tempest...i agree, the weight is an advantage for the tempest....

as for the last part: so it's an illusion that bars from all enemy types comes off faster with the phaeston than the tempest?...lol if you say so

Wrong.

The Tempest has higher DPS, which is what we mean by "damage", as well as more than twice the accuracy. Not recoil, accuracy. The Phaeston has little recoil, and the Tempest has some, but not enough to matter. Turians negate this even further.

Note:

Phaeston Accuracy: 15
Tempest Accuracy: 35

[whateverman7]

FeralJester616 wrote...

Exactly what I was saying. Thank you Atheosis.

But if you really want proof whateverman7 then test it yourself. If I had the ability to make and post gameplay videos then I would but as I can't why don't you try and test it yourself. Using my sudgestions, time yourself on how long it takes to kill things with the tempest and then the phaeston on the TuriSol. Waves 1-3 of Silver or Gold should prove the point.

i've used both plenty of times in the game, so i have a pretty good idea how they work...that's why i disagree....but next time i play, i got you...i'll do that and come back and tell you the results

[FeralJester616]

ToaOrka wrote...

Turian Soldier with ROF Marksman, Incendiary Ammo IV, reload-canceling:

Tempest DPS (With Amp V and Rail Amp III): 2500
Phaeston DPS (With Amp V and Rail Amp III): 2000

The Tempest also has...

-Higher spare-shot capacity
-Lower weight
-Higher ROF
-More than twice the accuracy

Final Verdict: Tempest > Phaeston

This isn't the only case in which a SMG is better than the ARs.
By BSN logic, SMGs need to be nerfed.
For Real Balance, the ARs need to be buffed. Hit them with higher weight if you must, but they almost all need more damage.

[Ares Caesar]

Me1mN0t wrote...

ARs need tweaking. Don't deny it.

Most ARs should be heavier (to discourage power users, and/or give AR specializing kits more buffs, like Turian's passives) and more powerful. The difference between a Phaeston and a Harrier shouldn't be so drastic. Ammo supply isn't an issue when theres a usually a box nearby and we have unused thermal-clip packs piling up.

When I start seeing power classes toting Harrier I's (or sometimes lobbies full of Harriers) on a consistent basis, something is amiss. People are using them as crutches on gold/plat... just like they did Cloak, Piranha, etc...

I don't know. Theres just so many "good" ARs that may seem good on Silver, but when you take them to Gold they become tediously slow to kill efficiently. Compare them to the murdertrain Harrier... no wonder gold+ pugs are infested with them.

The reason for that is the low damage per bullet AND the increase of armored targets per wave in Gold/Platinum vs Bronze/Silver.

The Harrier breaks the 100 damage mark per bullet, which is key in keeping a gun effective vs armor. Most of the assault rifles are ~50-75 damage per bullet, which is simply unacceptable vs armored targets because of the damage reduction Gold/Plat. provide with armor. Its also full auto which makes "theoretical DPS" truer to realistic DPS than a semi auto or burst fire weapon which loses a lot of its theoretical DPS when transferred to real gameplay situations.

The massive increase in Atlases, Geth Primes, Dragoons, Scions, Brutes, Banshees and DECREASE in basic infantry units with only barrier/shields+health+headboxes = massive effeciency decrease in the majority of SMGs and AR's.

Its the huge design flaw in both the wave budgets/spawns and the armor damage reduction of Gold/Platinum.

The Harrier is good sure, but the majority of fully automatic weapons are crap/poorly designed for higher difficulties.

Ultimately the original poster makes a valid argument in that these subpar weapons need to be brought up to Gold/Platinum worthy status (Instead of nerfing one of the better designed guns in the game).

[FeralJester616]

whateverman7 wrote...


i've used both plenty of times in the game, so i have a pretty good idea how they work...that's why i disagree....but next time i play, i got you...i'll do that and come back and tell you the results

Go for it, please.

Hopefully you'll realise what those of us taking the time to answer you back are right in this case.
Not saying we're always going to be right, but in this case all the numbers are in our corner.

[whateverman7]

ToaOrka wrote...

Wrong.

The Tempest has higher DPS, which is what we mean by "damage", as well as more than twice the accuracy. Not recoil, accuracy. The Phaeston has little recoil, and the Tempest has some, but not enough to matter. Turians negate this even further.

Note:

Phaeston Accuracy: 15
Tempest Accuracy: 35

i know what dps and damage are, when people refer to them on here though, they are talking about 2 different things....they only put them together when it fits their point

so if a gun has less recoil, it's not more accuracte? lol if you say so...use the tempest (without stability mods) on a non turian character (hip fire and zoom in), then use the phaeston, and tell me which 1 is more accuracte...i know, i just asked you and others to do something yall probably dont do: use guns one more than 1 character type...i say that cause yall keep mentioning how it is on a turian soldier....limiting a gun to a character type doesnt make it better, but for some reason that's what yall on the bsn try to do...yall will use 1 character to prove something is good/bad, over/under powered...it doesnt work like that

[ToaOrka]

FeralJester616 wrote...

ToaOrka wrote...

Turian Soldier with ROF Marksman, Incendiary Ammo IV, reload-canceling:

Tempest DPS (With Amp V and Rail Amp III): 2500
Phaeston DPS (With Amp V and Rail Amp III): 2000

The Tempest also has...

-Higher spare-shot capacity
-Lower weight
-Higher ROF
-More than twice the accuracy

Final Verdict: Tempest > Phaeston

This isn't the only case in which a SMG is better than the ARs.
By BSN logic, SMGs need to be nerfed.
For Real Balance, the ARs need to be buffed. Hit them with higher weight if you must, but they almost all need more damage.

The only ARs that I honestly think are fine the way they are are the Mattock, Harrier, and Particle Rifle.

Even the Typhoon could use a wee buff, be it an ammo increase or a weight decrease.

[Schachmatt123]

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

Schachmatt wrote...

Sigh. I did not say you suck - you just don't know imo how to use them properly if you see any drawback that would make the harrier a better choice. The harrier has a drawback, too. It's is tiny magazin and very sparse spare ammo. You say there are solutions to solve this undeniable fact? There are simple solutions for the other weapons 'drawbacks', too.

*sigh*

I do know how to use them and plan accordingly because they have their faults and I never pick the Harrier over them. Ever. The magazine size of the Harrier is not huge a setback to any class. Weapons based classes typically have strong shields and secondary offensive powers plus the ability to carry a sidearm. Casters, while thinner skinned, have some of the strongest powers in the game and can easily fallback to using those skills with virtually no penalties while carrying a Harrier and making it to an ammo crate.

Thank you for proving my point. No need to choose the harrier over them - no need for a nerf. And you can deny it as often as you want - the size is a setback. Case closed.

[FeralJester616]

ToaOrka wrote...

FeralJester616 wrote...

ToaOrka wrote...

Turian Soldier with ROF Marksman, Incendiary Ammo IV, reload-canceling:

Tempest DPS (With Amp V and Rail Amp III): 2500
Phaeston DPS (With Amp V and Rail Amp III): 2000

The Tempest also has...

-Higher spare-shot capacity
-Lower weight
-Higher ROF
-More than twice the accuracy

Final Verdict: Tempest > Phaeston

This isn't the only case in which a SMG is better than the ARs.
By BSN logic, SMGs need to be nerfed.
For Real Balance, the ARs need to be buffed. Hit them with higher weight if you must, but they almost all need more damage.

The only ARs that I honestly think are fine the way they are are the Mattock, Harrier, and Particle Rifle.

Even the Typhoon could use a wee buff, be it an ammo increase or a weight decrease.

The Mattock is the only one in that list I have any issue with, I feel it needs a sleight damage buff but only to bring it in line with the Harrier per Round, which is ment to be a Full Auto Version.

[hudder92]

theillusiveman11 wrote...

 There's no denying the Harrier is one of, if not the most utilized assault rifles. While heavy with little spare ammunition, it can give a player relatively reasonable cool downs. For the most part, it's also the easiest to use if you don't mind running to ammo boxes frequently. Unlike the Typhoon or Prothean Particle Rifle, there's little to compensate for in terms of use. 

So how do we balance such a fantastic weapon and make it so other assault rifles are in the same "ball field" as the Harrier? We buff other ARs as needed. I know this would be a massive undertaking for the balancing team, but buffing other ARs would help players choose another assault rifle every once in awhile when I want to be effective with one would be welcome by the MP community I think. 

What do you guys think about this idea? 


Note: Forgive any grammar mistakes, I did my best. Also I'm not as gameplay mechanics savvy as a lot of you, I just use what I enjoy or feel is effective. I have no idea about damage numbers or any of that. This is all layman's opinion. 

This completely cracks me up.. Most of the AR's in the game are complete garbage. We finally get one worth using (Even though I'm not a fan) and people are calling for nerfs.

I chalk it up to the following:

There are AR's meant for Bronze
There are AR's meant for Silver
There are AR's meant for Gold
And there is the Harrier, while it could be good for Platinum if it had decent amount of spare ammo. Yes, I know it works on Platinum, but to have to play a map with good ammo boxes in my opinion doesn't make it a good choice.

[whateverman7]

ToaOrka wrote...

Turian Soldier with ROF Marksman, Incendiary Ammo IV, reload-canceling:

Tempest DPS (With Amp V and Rail Amp III): 2500
Phaeston DPS (With Amp V and Rail Amp III): 2000

The Tempest also has...

-Higher spare-shot capacity
-Lower weight
-Higher ROF
-More than twice the accuracy

Final Verdict: Tempest > Phaeston

why you reload canceling?....just fire the gun, then reload....but i know, if you do that, it doesnt help your case...(before you say anything, yes, i know how to reload cancel, just see no point to do it)...also, use the gun on another character besides the turian soldier...

advantages for tempest: weight, spare clip
advantages for phaeston: accuracy, damage, rate of fire

 reason rate of fire is an advantage for phaeston and not tempest: recoil...yea, the tempest shoots faster, but without stability mods, the recoil messes with the accuracy...the phaeston doesnt have that problem

[JGDD]

Schachmatt wrote...

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

Schachmatt wrote...

Sigh. I did not say you suck - you just don't know imo how to use them properly if you see any drawback that would make the harrier a better choice. The harrier has a drawback, too. It's is tiny magazin and very sparse spare ammo. You say there are solutions to solve this undeniable fact? There are simple solutions for the other weapons 'drawbacks', too.

*sigh*

I do know how to use them and plan accordingly because they have their faults and I never pick the Harrier over them. Ever. The magazine size of the Harrier is not huge a setback to any class. Weapons based classes typically have strong shields and secondary offensive powers plus the ability to carry a sidearm. Casters, while thinner skinned, have some of the strongest powers in the game and can easily fallback to using those skills with virtually no penalties while carrying a Harrier and making it to an ammo crate.

Thank you for proving my point. No need to choose the harrier over them - no need for a nerf. And you can deny it as often as you want - the size is a setback. Case closed.

Interesting sleight of hand there...

Anyway, if I am choosing one of those weapons with a certain class/character it's because it works well with them and I have to determine the faults or positives. I don't really have to do that with the Harrier. Grab, go, win.

BTW, after the PM did you decide that my manifest wasn't worthy of getting all elitist over?

[Syrus101]

Uchimura wrote...

theillusiveman11 wrote...

We buff other ARs as needed.

Times a million. So many ARs yet not many decent ones outside of URs.

agreed

[Ares Caesar]

whateverman7 wrote...

ToaOrka wrote...

Wrong.

The Tempest has higher DPS, which is what we mean by "damage", as well as more than twice the accuracy. Not recoil, accuracy. The Phaeston has little recoil, and the Tempest has some, but not enough to matter. Turians negate this even further.

Note:

Phaeston Accuracy: 15
Tempest Accuracy: 35

i know what dps and damage are, when people refer to them on here though, they are talking about 2 different things....they only put them together when it fits their point

so if a gun has less recoil, it's not more accuracte? lol if you say so...use the tempest (without stability mods) on a non turian character (hip fire and zoom in), then use the phaeston, and tell me which 1 is more accuracte...i know, i just asked you and others to do something yall probably dont do: use guns one more than 1 character type...i say that cause yall keep mentioning how it is on a turian soldier....limiting a gun to a character type doesnt make it better, but for some reason that's what yall on the bsn try to do...yall will use 1 character to prove something is good/bad, over/under powered...it doesnt work like that

Accuracy =/= Recoil

Accuracy = Actual spread pattern of the weapon, that regardless of recoil each bullet will have a maximum aim error.

Recoil = Vertical (and in other games Horizontal) climb/drift the gun will take when firing. This does NOT change the spread pattern of the bullets, merely the actual aim point of the user. A user CAN correct the recoil of a gun, negating most of the climb/drift making the actual accuracy/spread pattern all that matters in regards to accuracy.

I'm FAR from the best player in the game, but I've spent enough time using the high recoil weapons in this game and others that correcting recoil is very easy for me, but correcting the actual spread pattern? Impossible.

Now I dont know if people are simply mistaken or *I* am misinterpreting peoples posts, BUT the Phaeston *IS MORE ACCURATE* than the Tempest. The spread pattern of the Phaeston is clearly tighter than the Tempest, this is not even debateable.

However, the fact that the Tempest has a higher RoF, higher damage per bullet, higher total ammo, and potentially higher clip size, lighter base weight and ability to weight almost nothing with ULM, does lend to the Tempest  being the overall better gun under ideal circumstances, and for the better players the "ideal circumstances" are what matter most simply because they can place themselves in these situations more often. Some things CANNOT be overcome, and most of the weaknesses of the Phaeston vs the Tempest CANNOT be overcome by the user, while the Tempests weaknesses CAN be overcome by the user.

In the categories that matter, the Tempest is the superior weapon... which only proves that a good portion of the Assault Rifles are very underpowered.

[whateverman7]

FeralJester616 wrote...

Go for it, please.

Hopefully you'll realise what those of us taking the time to answer you back are right in this case.
Not saying we're always going to be right, but in this case all the numbers are in our corner.

i will...highly doubt it'll change my thoughts...reason being: i'm going off game experience, which is why i say the phaeston is better...

[Homey C-Dawg]

Hasn't Bioware already mentioned many times that they balance individual weapons against the rest of them, and not the other way around like OP is suggesting.

I think if something needs to be done to the Harrier, it will be a change to the Harrier and not any other guns.

[Atheosis]

FeralJester616 wrote...

ToaOrka wrote...

FeralJester616 wrote...

ToaOrka wrote...

Turian Soldier with ROF Marksman, Incendiary Ammo IV, reload-canceling:

Tempest DPS (With Amp V and Rail Amp III): 2500
Phaeston DPS (With Amp V and Rail Amp III): 2000

The Tempest also has...

-Higher spare-shot capacity
-Lower weight
-Higher ROF
-More than twice the accuracy

Final Verdict: Tempest > Phaeston

This isn't the only case in which a SMG is better than the ARs.
By BSN logic, SMGs need to be nerfed.
For Real Balance, the ARs need to be buffed. Hit them with higher weight if you must, but they almost all need more damage.

The only ARs that I honestly think are fine the way they are are the Mattock, Harrier, and Particle Rifle.

Even the Typhoon could use a wee buff, be it an ammo increase or a weight decrease.

The Mattock is the only one in that list I have any issue with, I feel it needs a sleight damage buff but only to bring it in line with the Harrier per Round, which is ment to be a Full Auto Version.

The Mattock's per round damage is already identical to the Harrier.

[Schachmatt123]

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

Schachmatt wrote...

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

Schachmatt wrote...

Sigh. I did not say you suck - you just don't know imo how to use them properly if you see any drawback that would make the harrier a better choice. The harrier has a drawback, too. It's is tiny magazin and very sparse spare ammo. You say there are solutions to solve this undeniable fact? There are simple solutions for the other weapons 'drawbacks', too.

*sigh*

I do know how to use them and plan accordingly because they have their faults and I never pick the Harrier over them. Ever. The magazine size of the Harrier is not huge a setback to any class. Weapons based classes typically have strong shields and secondary offensive powers plus the ability to carry a sidearm. Casters, while thinner skinned, have some of the strongest powers in the game and can easily fallback to using those skills with virtually no penalties while carrying a Harrier and making it to an ammo crate.

Thank you for proving my point. No need to choose the harrier over them - no need for a nerf. And you can deny it as often as you want - the size is a setback. Case closed.

Interesting sleight of hand there...

Anyway, if I am choosing one of those weapons with a certain class/character it's because it works well with them and I have to determine the faults or positives. I don't really have to do that with the Harrier. Grab, go, win.

BTW, after the PM did you decide that my manifest wasn't worthy of getting all elitist over?

I still don't see the point with the harrier. The sad truth is that a lot of players are trying to get this weapon going and fail miserabely. It's still not an easy winning button, you still have to be skilled enough to get from crate to crate swiftly and you have to land constant headshots. The vast majority of the playerbase is not able to do that, the few people here on the BSN are not representative. And you have more viable options with certain combinations - still exactly proving my point. No need to slap the harrier on every character, there are better options.

And to answer your question, my offer was sincere. How nice of you to spoil private messages on the forum at all and on top of that out of context.

Modifié par Schachmatt, 25 novembre 2012 - 10:45 .

[ToaOrka]

whateverman7 wrote...

ToaOrka wrote...

Turian Soldier with ROF Marksman, Incendiary Ammo IV, reload-canceling:

Tempest DPS (With Amp V and Rail Amp III): 2500
Phaeston DPS (With Amp V and Rail Amp III): 2000

The Tempest also has...

-Higher spare-shot capacity
-Lower weight
-Higher ROF
-More than twice the accuracy

Final Verdict: Tempest > Phaeston

why you reload canceling?....just fire the gun, then reload....but i know, if you do that, it doesnt help your case...(before you say anything, yes, i know how to reload cancel, just see no point to do it)...also, use the gun on another character besides the turian soldier...

advantages for tempest: weight, spare clip
advantages for phaeston: accuracy, damage, rate of fire

 reason rate of fire is an advantage for phaeston and not tempest: recoil...yea, the tempest shoots faster, but without stability mods, the recoil messes with the accuracy...the phaeston doesnt have that problem

I reload cancel because it's easy and more efficient that just reloading, IE, better. If you see no point to doing better and making your gun perform better, than you obviously have no place in discussions concerning whether or not one gun can perform better than the other, since you aren't using your own guns to the best of their abilities.

Because Marksman gives percentage-bonuses to ROF and accuracy, it doesn't matter if you put these guns on something else.

If it makes you feel any wronger, here's the flat sustained (IE no reload canceling or equipment) DPS of both guns:

Phaeston: 411.3
Tempest: 477.8

What do you know, the Tempest is still better than the Phaeston.

Here, I even made an image so you can comprehend it with less effort:



Protip: Red means it's less than the other weapon, green means it's better than the other weapon.

[FeralJester616]

whateverman7 wrote...

FeralJester616 wrote...

Go for it, please.

Hopefully you'll realise what those of us taking the time to answer you back are right in this case.
Not saying we're always going to be right, but in this case all the numbers are in our corner.

i will...highly doubt it'll change my thoughts...reason being: i'm going off game experience, which is why i say the phaeston is better...

Can't deny that the Pheaston feels better, it is easier to handle and has a better sound.
I'm not telling you what to like, just what is more effective for most people.

For example, I hate the Hurricane. For alot of people its a great weapon. My opinion of the gun doesn't change the fact that it's the most effecive of all the SMGs.

[whateverman7]

Ares Caesar wrote...

Accuracy =/= Recoil

Accuracy = Actual spread pattern of the weapon, that regardless of recoil each bullet will have a maximum aim error.

Recoil = Vertical (and in other games Horizontal) climb/drift the gun will take when firing. This does NOT change the spread pattern of the bullets, merely the actual aim point of the user. A user CAN correct the recoil of a gun, negating most of the climb/drift making the actual accuracy/spread pattern all that matters in regards to accuracy.

I'm FAR from the best player in the game, but I've spent enough time using the high recoil weapons in this game and others that correcting recoil is very easy for me, but correcting the actual spread pattern? Impossible.

Now I dont know if people are simply mistaken or *I* am misinterpreting peoples posts, BUT the Phaeston *IS MORE ACCURATE* than the Tempest. The spread pattern of the Phaeston is clearly tighter than the Tempest, this is not even debateable.

However, the fact that the Tempest has a higher RoF, higher damage per bullet, higher total ammo, and potentially higher clip size, lighter base weight and ability to weight almost nothing with ULM, does lend to the Tempest  being the overall better gun under ideal circumstances, and for the better players the "ideal circumstances" are what matter most simply because they can place themselves in these situations more often. Some things CANNOT be overcome, and most of the weaknesses of the Phaeston vs the Tempest CANNOT be overcome by the user, while the Tempests weaknesses CAN be overcome by the user.

In the categories that matter, the Tempest is the superior weapon... which only proves that a good portion of the Assault Rifles are very underpowered.

i never said accuracy = recoil...the point i was making was that recoil plays a part in accuracy...and that a gun with a lesser recoil (phaeston) is gonna be more accuracte than a gun with a higher recoil (tempest)

'better gun under ideal circumstances' (your words)...that right there is proof the phaeston is better...you dont need ideal circumstances for it to be most effective....just equip it with clip and extended barrel mods and go to work...

also, yall need to stop with the dps talk...dps is a useless stat....why i say that? even though the tempest has a higher dps, the phaeston does better work without ammo mods against all enemy type defenses (armor, shield, barrier) than the tempest....which is another reason i think it's better....