363 réponses à ce sujet

[taplonaplo]

Ares Caesar wrote...
I dont think the Harrier is so much a "crutch" weapon as it is simply a middleground between many of the other great weapons in the game. Plenty of the best weapons have something better to offer than the Harrier, they just have a more glaring weakness, while the Harrier is sort of a "jack of all trades(@s$ kicking)" gun. 

I must ask, if a weapon with those properties is not a "crutch" weapon, then what is? The way i see it what other weapons do better than the harrier is burst damage and spare ammo, and the latter is widely regarded as a non issue. But for the greater burst potential every other weapon have some significant downside limiting their use to certain builds for maximum synergy, so why not the harrier?

[GreatBlueHeron]

Thanks, OP, for starting YET ANOTHER "gotcha" thread on the harrier. And thanks for encouraging the elites to call for the harrier's nerf.

FFS, can we have ONE assault rifle that's actually good for gold on up play?

[MasterRed_ko7]

The Harrier is suppose to be just about the best AR in the game, and to make up for it you cannot use it too much because of the low ammo count it has, along with the fact that it is Ultra Rare and weighs more, which means characters who uses powers often cannot use it and their powers as well as they were meant to be.

But some weapons do need to be changed in stats, though, to make people want to play with them more. Maybe they should make the Harrier even more heavy to increase cooldown?

I know it doesn't sound much, but, for example, if a Drell Vanguard charges at someone with the Harrier, they are at a disadvantage, because he cannot use the Biotic Charge again, which can restore all of his Barrier strength at once, if it is upgraded that way. Sure, the Harrier will kill one or two, maybe even three enemies, but on Gold or even Silver, a good gun is useless against too many enemies.

That's why my Slayer always uses a Carnifex, to easily blow off the heads of any nearby enemies. It's just so satisfying to see that happen.

[Ares Caesar]

taplonaplo wrote...

Ares Caesar wrote...
I dont think the Harrier is so much a "crutch" weapon as it is simply a middleground between many of the other great weapons in the game. Plenty of the best weapons have something better to offer than the Harrier, they just have a more glaring weakness, while the Harrier is sort of a "jack of all trades(@s$ kicking)" gun. 

I must ask, if a weapon with those properties is not a "crutch" weapon, then what is? The way i see it what other weapons do better than the harrier is burst damage and spare ammo, and the latter is widely regarded as a non issue. But for the greater burst potential every other weapon have some significant downside limiting their use to certain builds for maximum synergy, so why not the harrier?

I dont think the game has any true "crutch" weapons anymore. The pre-nerf Krysae was the last "crutch" in the game. Sure the Piranha GI, the Reegar Kroguard, and the Typhoon/PPR Destroyer+TGI are all d@mn good combos, but none of them are nearly the level of "easy mode" that a pre-nerf Tactical Cloak + Krysae Infiltrator was. 

People too easily cast aside the ammo capacity weakness for the Harrier, but forget that while you're running to an ammo crate you're losing DPS compared to weapons with higher ammo capacity that continue to shoot (this is where math meets ingame application), or you're forced to spend consumables (ammo packs) while other weapons dont need it.

I'm not trying to act as if the Harrier isnt one of the top tier weapons, but guns like the Particle Rifle, Hurricane, Reegar, Typhoon, Piranha and a few others are just as good(better in certain areas), but have slightly more obvious weaknesses.

Modifié par Ares Caesar, 26 novembre 2012 - 03:17 .

[Jelena Jankovic]

Most of my gold runs involve either the Destroyer with PPR VI or Grenade Tossing Krogans (or a Reegar slinging Kroguard)

I keep the harrier as a backup weapon (although I've been running with the Saber lately anyways

The rarest AR's are the best?

Shocking

[udinbak4]

GreatBlueHeron wrote...

Thanks, OP, for starting YET ANOTHER "gotcha" thread on the harrier. And thanks for encouraging the elites to call for the harrier's nerf.

FFS, can we have ONE assault rifle that's actually good for gold on up play?

Agreed.

When Typhoon was released, everyone was saying "oh, it's such an awesome weapon", people were making tons of videos, and whenever I was playing gold games there was at least one destroyer with the typhoon who was killing everything in its path.

Then, couple of weeks later, when the kids got tired of their new toy the rifle got nerfed.

Do you know when I got the Typhoon? Couple of weeks ago.

Some players here don't even have Harrier. And you start this thread where you want to nerf it now.

If you are tired of your toys, just use other ones. Use this gun only on platinum... Or start an elitist "No harriers allowed" club.

Bioware please, stop nerfing guns. If you have to, buff enemies. Or nerf the elitists...

[capn233]

udinbak4 wrote...

If you are tired of your toys, just use other ones. Use this gun only on platinum... Or start an elitist "No harriers allowed" club.

There has only really been one nerf gone awry, which has completely compromised the gun, and that was the Krysae.  All the other nerfs have been fairly minor, and are out weighed in volume by the number of weapon buffs.

A small Harrier change wouldn't be the end of the world, nor would leaving it alone.

[IllusiveManJr]

I never said I wanted to nerf the Harrier. In fact, I'm saying buff other ARs as needed. Don't know why you guys are saying I proposed any sort of nerf for it in my unedited OP.

[Heldarion]

theillusiveman11 wrote...

I never said I wanted to nerf the Harrier. In fact, I'm saying buff other ARs as needed. Don't know why you guys are saying I proposed any sort of nerf for it in my unedited OP.

Then you should rethink your title. Since "to balance" is de facto synonymous to "to nerf" on BSN, you should choose your words more carefully.

[whateverman7]

havent forgotten....did the phaeston, will do the tempest next, then come back and share my thoughts

[Xiaolruc]

What.
Nope! Can't hear ya! LALALALA!

[Doni]

Fix the Harrier's recoil (it has more when fired from cover).

I think that would be a fair "nerf" without making people freak out.

[GroverA125]

It does require a debuff, much like Infiltrators did, much like the Typhoon (on the grounds of Bioware believing that the benefit far outweighed the cost of spooling it) did, much like the Carnifex (which was neither amazing or overpowered, it just hit the weight ratio required for casters) did, much like Sabotage (on the grounds that possibly taking control of one enemy for a brief duration is unfair and needs to be done correctly) did, much like the Krysae (on the grounds that it was overused and supposedly had too high damage for it's AoE) did, the list can go on.

The Harrier is overused, and it is not overused on the grounds that people prefer the look and sound it makes over other weapons. the likely conclusion for its use is that the benefit is heavily outweighing the cost for use (as many a person has said, people sit nearby ammo boxes anyway, they're hardly going to spend 1 out of every 5 minutes sprinting to an ammo box, they just pass it on the way to a position). THAT, is why it needs a nerf, not because it has hilarious damage, but because what follows because of that hilarious damage is a weapon with a petty con having the greatest effect on the game since TC and Krysaes were not balanced.

The Harrier is the immediate go-to weapon of the game for any class that doesn't need recharge speeds or single-fire weapons. That means that it is pulling use from every other full-auto in the game, and it renders many assault rifles completely obsolete (including UR and promotionals), and so like the Carnifex, it deserves to be nerfed to a state in which player choice is the defining factor between specific weapons.

[seireikhaan]

This thread is completely idiotic. People should read OP. Smart ideas. Flame less. Tempest should not be more efficient than dang near every gold AR.

[corporal doody]

harrier is most "balanced" weapon in MP.


and tempest sucks. some ARs are good...some are bad. 

if they came out with more ARs....cool....but i dunno about tweaking the ones we already have to compete with the harrier.

Modifié par corporal doody, 26 novembre 2012 - 10:12 .

[Computron2000]

GroverA125 wrote...
The Harrier is the immediate go-to weapon of the game for any class that doesn't need recharge speeds or single-fire weapons. That means that it is pulling use from every other full-auto in the game, and it renders many assault rifles completely obsolete (including UR and promotionals), and so like the Carnifex, it deserves to be nerfed to a state in which player choice is the defining factor between specific weapons.

Your statement of not needing recharge speeds already rules out many of the CD sensitive classes. Do list down what multitude of classes where the harrier is the claimed immediate go-to weapon. I suspect you will be throwing in caster classes with a statement of "with the harrier, they don't need such high cooldowns", in an effort to bolster your argument once you find that it means half or more of the classes are ruled out. Add to that the ruling out of increasing number of the infilitrators that are going back to snipers and the amount of differing choice for "weight is no issue" characters (eg i use GPS on demolisher), i suspect your statement will end up as pretty much either hyperbole or biased into uselessness

As for "pulling use from every other full-auto in the game", do list what full-autos there are. Again i suspect many of the short burst fire weapons such as vindicator and hornet will be thrown in to inflate the list. Then tell us why the harrier is used rather than the avenger (surely this must also be a valid player choice in any difficulty), striker, etc.

[Clearly Balkan]

Drayce333 wrote...

Dev 1: Too much work. How about we just nerf this gun.
Dev 2: Nerf the acolyte too, to many players using it so it must be OP.
Dev 1: Just throw in a asari the same week and let them kill each other
Dev 2: lol, best job ever.

[Clearly Balkan]

vivanto wrote...

Didn't read op:
Stop whining, I haven't even used the Harrier once.

I was replaying the trioligy recently, and in ME2 Zaeed's dialogue gave me some ideas of a new gun. I'd love if they added Jessie in the game, a slightly modified-looking Avenger with the ME1 mechanics - meaning it has infinite ammo but needs to cool down. Of course, finetune the damage and other values to make it rare-worthy (or even UR, but then make it Harrier-stomping)

No matter what you do to Avenger, you just can't make this standard rifle any better.

It's useless sh*t AR now. It will be useless s*it AR with any kind of modification.

[udinbak4]

seireikhaan wrote...

This thread is completely idiotic. People should read OP. Smart ideas. Flame less. Tempest should not be more efficient than dang near every gold AR.

He should've named the topic "The time to balance every AR w.r.t Harrier has come", or "We need more fantastic weapons like Harrier"...

The title is very misleading, and when Bioware gets a look at it (especially considering the fact that every troll on this board voted 5* for the title), they will start thinking about nerfing the rifle - It is the quickest and easiest solution.

[Necrotron]

Uchimura wrote...

theillusiveman11 wrote...

We buff other ARs as needed.

Times a million. So many ARs yet not many decent ones outside of URs.

Yes, we don't need shotguns being nearly always better.  If a weapon requires you stay out in the open to continuously fire (e.g. an assault rifle), it should pay dividends equal to that investment (e.g. lots of damage). 

[GroverA125]

Computron2000 wrote...

GroverA125 wrote...
The Harrier is the immediate go-to weapon of the game for any class that doesn't need recharge speeds or single-fire weapons. That means that it is pulling use from every other full-auto in the game, and it renders many assault rifles completely obsolete (including UR and promotionals), and so like the Carnifex, it deserves to be nerfed to a state in which player choice is the defining factor between specific weapons.

Your statement of not needing recharge speeds already rules out many of the CD sensitive classes. Do list down what multitude of classes where the harrier is the claimed immediate go-to weapon. I suspect you will be throwing in caster classes with a statement of "with the harrier, they don't need such high cooldowns", in an effort to bolster your argument once you find that it means half or more of the classes are ruled out. Add to that the ruling out of increasing number of the infilitrators that are going back to snipers and the amount of differing choice for "weight is no issue" characters (eg i use GPS on demolisher), i suspect your statement will end up as pretty much either hyperbole or biased into uselessness

As for "pulling use from every other full-auto in the game", do list what full-autos there are. Again i suspect many of the short burst fire weapons such as vindicator and hornet will be thrown in to inflate the list. Then tell us why the harrier is used rather than the avenger (surely this must also be a valid player choice in any difficulty), striker, etc.

When I refer to classes that don't need to worry about cooldowns, I'm not referring to classes such as the Turian soldier or the Vorcha, I'm directing it literally to any class which lives of a 200% cooldown, by which I mean the majority of adepts, vanguards and engineers (with around half of the sentinels in there too). Any combat class will not be affected whatsoever by the Harriers weight, as the output they get is far greater than the loss of power recharge speed.

As for weapons losing use because of our dear Harrier (note: I forgot to add "and assault rifles" to that sentence):

• Valkyrie (Regarded by some in the community as a stuttering harrier with less DPS)
• Revenant (High DPS at then cost of accuracy and recoil, and still less DPS than a harrier even IF you get all bullets on-target)
• Typhoon (A harrier can deal so much more damage in a shorter space, and the Typhoon isn't exactly ammo-efficient itself)
• Collector rifle (can barely deal half of what a Harrier can do, even when utilizing the improved accuracy for longer ranges)
• Collector SMG (cannot outpower the harrier, and spends a longer time overall waiting for a full mag)
• Collector SR (Same as the Collector SMG, you just spend too long waiting)
• PPR (forces you to sit outside for your cover for two seconds to get DPS even close to a harrier, and then the recharge has a significant effect on its capability to stick at it)
• Avenger (obviously)
• Tempest (accuracy and longevity just doesn't make up for damage in comparison with harrier)
• Eagle (weight is all it's got)
• GPR (shouldn't be used in the same way as a Harrier, but in other places, perhaps not so bad)
• Phaeston (same position as GPR, except as a combat weapon, it's got nothing on the Harrier)
• Indra (has precision, but nowhere near as much output. Unless you go Snip-filtrator, in which case not so bad if you put half your shots in a targets head)
• Saber (doesn't cut it when against the Harrier, as a marksman rifle, possibly still purposeful, but not as much as it should be)

Probably a couple more I've missed as well. Nothing can fill the same amount of niches so well, the harrier is literally the swiss-army rifle (throw it anywhere with anyone and it'll still do good). Much like the Carnifex was. To answer the last part of your question (I already did in my first post, I'll repeat it), the Harrier's only downside is that you need to be near an ammo box. Most people stick close to them anyway, so the con is significantly less major than it should be. An avenger has terrible damage, thereby limiting its use completely in comparison to other weapons, which can do any job the avenger can, better.

Also, @Above: Assault rifles (mainly all but the Saber) require a greater DPS to also compensate for the inability to control your RoF (which weapons can use to get consistent headshots), the inability to reliably headshot, even in CQB, and the inaccuracy of a full-auto weapon (effectively making them shorter range). The Harrier beats marksman weapons in CQB because of sheer damage output, but few other ARs or full autos do.

Modifié par GroverA125, 26 novembre 2012 - 10:42 .

[neverhadspam]

then i believe its time for another argus buff. because the saber is pretty good, harrier and ppr.

[GroverA125]

neverhadspam wrote...

then i believe its time for another argus buff. because the saber is pretty good, harrier and ppr.

Argus isn't too bad, works well on the default human soldier, nothing like pure damage and a reset mag to kill stuff.

It's damage is a little mediocre for the price you pay, compared to other weapons, it's a bit of an unfair trade. Mainly it's just the demanding recoil and irritating accuracy that inhibit its use on certain ranges and characters. Good mid-tier weapon though.

[ZLurps]

There is something that bothers me in these claims about "lobbies full of Harrier users"

According to my manifest I have played 585 H. 11 M. and 45 S. During that time I have played 2069 games.

How come I haven't encountered these lobbies full of Harrier users?

From last couple of weeks I remember _one_ game, where I was using Argus and three other players Harriers of various levels. FB: Ghost / Gold, Geth IIRC. It was pretty hilarious really, we got wiped on wave 4 or 5.

Modifié par ZLurps, 26 novembre 2012 - 11:02 .

[MrFuddyDuddy]

Love how when a Nerf/Buff all the things threads drop they end up being like 50 pages long, then the weapon/skill in question ends up bludgened to death by the nerf bat.