The classes in NWN are a little unbalanced - mainly clerics and to some extent monks are overpowered, while some other classes (harper scout) are a bit too weak.
Are there some good overrides that could make it balanced? The only thing I have found so far is http://nwvault.ign.c...Detail&id=5932/ but I'm not sure if it's good, since the comments seem to suggest that some bugs are present and that the game still lacks balance.
Then there is also patch 1.70 which changes some stuff with classes but not really towards balance.
So, does anyone know of something similar to this?
Any balance scripts out there?
Débuté par
Grani
, nov. 25 2012 03:37
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#2
Posté 25 novembre 2012 - 04:19
SHOVA
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Is there a master down load to balance the classes, no.
There are systems that adjust most classes, feats, spells, and skills, however I believe you probably will not find exactly what you are looking for, as what you call balanced, very few others would agree to.
The classes are balanced, for group play, as that is what D&D was designed for, and what this game is based on. That does not mean that some classes have abilities that are out of balance with others.
Your going to have to look around (the vault) and see if there are class adjustments you want to have.
There are systems that adjust most classes, feats, spells, and skills, however I believe you probably will not find exactly what you are looking for, as what you call balanced, very few others would agree to.
The classes are balanced, for group play, as that is what D&D was designed for, and what this game is based on. That does not mean that some classes have abilities that are out of balance with others.
Your going to have to look around (the vault) and see if there are class adjustments you want to have.
#3
Posté 25 novembre 2012 - 04:37
Grani
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I see. Thanks for the reply. I mainly wanted balance for PVP, sorry for not mentioning that. While the group play is pretty balanced, it is not for solo play and PVP and I cannot seem to find any fix for that, since PVP field of NWN remained largely untouched since the release of the game, as opposed to other areas.
#4
Posté 25 novembre 2012 - 04:54
MagicalMaster
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Part of the problem is that item power levels aren't standardized either.
If you have a world where the highest equipment is +3, that's vastly different from a world where everyone runs around with +20 weapons and 50 resistance to all damage and all immunities.
Then you also have the question of level, since balance changes whether the world is level 10, 15, 20, 30, 40, or whatever.
So no, there's no easy solo.
I was working on a system that added a lot of tweaks and adjusted some stuff that I'd be happy to show to you (and you're welcome to use part or all of it), but I haven't touched it in a while since I decided to completely overhaul the combat system rather than try to fix the original one.
I think the tweaks I did made it reasonably balanced for solo and PvP, far far better than default, but I still wasn't happy with it as you might guess.
If you have a world where the highest equipment is +3, that's vastly different from a world where everyone runs around with +20 weapons and 50 resistance to all damage and all immunities.
Then you also have the question of level, since balance changes whether the world is level 10, 15, 20, 30, 40, or whatever.
So no, there's no easy solo.
I was working on a system that added a lot of tweaks and adjusted some stuff that I'd be happy to show to you (and you're welcome to use part or all of it), but I haven't touched it in a while since I decided to completely overhaul the combat system rather than try to fix the original one.
I think the tweaks I did made it reasonably balanced for solo and PvP, far far better than default, but I still wasn't happy with it as you might guess.
#5
Posté 25 novembre 2012 - 05:18
Shadooow
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It actually maintain more balance, but not between classes really and most of the stuff I would call rather fixes than balance changes although there are a few as well.Grani wrote...
Then there is also patch 1.70 which changes some stuff with classes but not really towards balance.
I know of no such a package, pvp modules usually don't share their own changes. Still it would be best to simply follow changes from Bastions of War or Antiworld module and implement them on your own. Of course building onto CP 1.70 would be definitely good idea as you wouldnt have to fix numerous bug and exploits between spells on your own.
#6
Posté 25 novembre 2012 - 05:19
Grani
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I'd be glad to take a look at it 
Also, while I know that item power levels create even more problems, it's not an issue if the characters play only on one or few modules on which this is standarized.
I actually use your patch, ShaDoOoW.
Implementing the modifications from other modules could definitely turn out well, but with my limited toolset skills, I don't think I could do it.
Also, while I know that item power levels create even more problems, it's not an issue if the characters play only on one or few modules on which this is standarized.
ShaDoOoW wrote...
It actually maintain more balance, but not between classes really and most of the stuff I would call rather fixes than balance changes although there are a few as well.
I know of no such a package, pvp modules usually don't share their own changes. Still it would be best to simply follow changes from Bastions of War or Antiworld module and implement them on your own. Of course building onto CP 1.70 would be definitely good idea as you wouldnt have to fix numerous bug and exploits between spells on your own.
I actually use your patch, ShaDoOoW.
Implementing the modifications from other modules could definitely turn out well, but with my limited toolset skills, I don't think I could do it.
Modifié par Grani, 25 novembre 2012 - 05:22 .
#7
Posté 25 novembre 2012 - 05:21
SHOVA
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If your making a pure PVP type mod, mostly what you're going to find trying to balance the classes is a headache. The reason is simple, the classes were never balanced from the start. Bio, furthered the problem by making NWN a solo type game, with a multi-player ability, Not a multi-player game with a solo ability. That is why certain things, like summons are out of whack.
MM brought up the next headache your going to run into, items. The more cheesed the item, the worse it gets. Especially when Items have powers that normally certain classes have. Like heal, or Haste, or etc. When that happens, what you find is players end up playing the same class combo- Sorc/RRD/Fighter, or Monk/Palidin/Rogue or whatever the flavor is now (I don't play PVP) with all the best gear. It also tends to attract that type of player, (nothing wrong with that, just not my cup of tea.) and you don't get other play types that stick around. When that happens what you end up with is a few level 40s that have everything, and beat the snot out of any new players that show up, because they can. Seen it many times on many servers.
On the other hand, if you go extremely low end item powers (in regard to what is available with NWN) you get the tendency for Group play minded players (provided monsters are tough) who will occasionally PVP, regardless of class combo's, and what you get generally, is who ever clicks first, and rolls better, wins. That is especially true at low levels. The higher the level the more it deviates from that.
Of course there are other play styles, and things that happen. perhaps that is why NWN is so popular..the ability to make it what you want..
MM brought up the next headache your going to run into, items. The more cheesed the item, the worse it gets. Especially when Items have powers that normally certain classes have. Like heal, or Haste, or etc. When that happens, what you find is players end up playing the same class combo- Sorc/RRD/Fighter, or Monk/Palidin/Rogue or whatever the flavor is now (I don't play PVP) with all the best gear. It also tends to attract that type of player, (nothing wrong with that, just not my cup of tea.) and you don't get other play types that stick around. When that happens what you end up with is a few level 40s that have everything, and beat the snot out of any new players that show up, because they can. Seen it many times on many servers.
On the other hand, if you go extremely low end item powers (in regard to what is available with NWN) you get the tendency for Group play minded players (provided monsters are tough) who will occasionally PVP, regardless of class combo's, and what you get generally, is who ever clicks first, and rolls better, wins. That is especially true at low levels. The higher the level the more it deviates from that.
Of course there are other play styles, and things that happen. perhaps that is why NWN is so popular..the ability to make it what you want..
#8
Posté 25 novembre 2012 - 05:29
Shadooow
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what you can try is to ask these modules to share their balance changes, these modules are dead anyway so they could help you, or if you come with some new idea you could maybe brought some life into one of those already existing modules if you became part of the developmentGrani wrote...
Implementing the modifications from other modules could definitely turn out well, but with my limited toolset skills, I don't think I could do it.
#9
Posté 25 novembre 2012 - 06:37
MagicalMaster
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Grani wrote...
Also, while I know that item power levels create even more problems, it's not an issue if the characters play only on one or few modules on which this is standarized.
My point was more that the balance changes depend on the power of items.
On a low magic world, a fighter is at a severe disadvantage compared to a wizard, under default rules.
On a high magic world, a wizard is at a severe disadvantage compared to a fighter, under default rules.
So whether you think fighters or wizards are at a disadvantage will already depend on the environment.
#10
Posté 26 novembre 2012 - 03:34
Aelis Eine
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There are too many issues with engine hardcode and differing environments and philosophies behind "balance" to come up with something that is at least regarded by the community at large as "balanced".
One school of thought is that "balance" means staying true to the creator's, i.e. WotC's intent of class roles. For this, I believe there's a few 3.5E mods out there. Should be easy to find on nwvault.
Another school of thought is that "balance" means a class should be able to function effectively as part of a Holy Trinity (Tank, DPS, Healer) but have weaknesses that prevent them from covering the entire Trinity by themselves. This is generally not feasible due to lack of aggro mechanics in NWN.
Yet another school of thought is that "balance" means all classes should have an equal chance of winning or losing to all other classes in PvP. This kind of balance is typically unreachable as well. There are games that spend years trying to reach this point, but the human mind evolves as the metagame does. Designers typically regard this type as a moving target: start at Point A and keep going forward, no right or wrong answer, but that also means no ready-made system.
One more school of thought is that "balance" means rock-paper-scissors design, where every class is a hard counter to another class, and is in turn countered by a class. Similarly, situations that cause one class to stop in its tracks can be handled by another with ease. In most games, this is easy to handle, but NWN has a multiclassing system and issues like skill dumping and front-loaded classes, so it's possible to make a swiss army knife character that handles almost everything.
My advice is as a builder, think hard about what you want, learn a bit of NWscript and roll up your sleeves. As a player, just keep shopping till you find what you like, or look for frontiers beyond, i.e. other games.
One school of thought is that "balance" means staying true to the creator's, i.e. WotC's intent of class roles. For this, I believe there's a few 3.5E mods out there. Should be easy to find on nwvault.
Another school of thought is that "balance" means a class should be able to function effectively as part of a Holy Trinity (Tank, DPS, Healer) but have weaknesses that prevent them from covering the entire Trinity by themselves. This is generally not feasible due to lack of aggro mechanics in NWN.
Yet another school of thought is that "balance" means all classes should have an equal chance of winning or losing to all other classes in PvP. This kind of balance is typically unreachable as well. There are games that spend years trying to reach this point, but the human mind evolves as the metagame does. Designers typically regard this type as a moving target: start at Point A and keep going forward, no right or wrong answer, but that also means no ready-made system.
One more school of thought is that "balance" means rock-paper-scissors design, where every class is a hard counter to another class, and is in turn countered by a class. Similarly, situations that cause one class to stop in its tracks can be handled by another with ease. In most games, this is easy to handle, but NWN has a multiclassing system and issues like skill dumping and front-loaded classes, so it's possible to make a swiss army knife character that handles almost everything.
My advice is as a builder, think hard about what you want, learn a bit of NWscript and roll up your sleeves. As a player, just keep shopping till you find what you like, or look for frontiers beyond, i.e. other games.
Modifié par Aelis Eine, 26 novembre 2012 - 03:34 .
