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[Tibbi_Sunshine]

So I've played throught the Zevran and Taliesin scene six ways from Sunday, and I'm a little disappointed that at no point do you get a Cunning check to basically reality slap Zev with the fact that Taliesin set up Rinna because he was jealous of Zev's attraction to her.  Reading between the lines, I think it's pretty obvious--I mean almost flat-out admits that he and Taliesin were lovers if you have the encounter at a lower level of Approval (say around 40 or so).  And then Taliesin admits that he personally took the contract so he could come get Zev (conveniently killing another potential love interest in the bargain.)  Hellooooooo?  Earth to the assassin?  Maybe your "old friend" there wasn't such an up-and-up buddy and went around killing your girlfriends? So MAYBE instea of ditching my butt at a fairly decent approval level and opting out of the fight I could give him a check to make him stay and fight?

I mean, if you can Cunning check Alistair regarding his daddy issues, surely there should be one with Zev.

[You Are Here]

Hmmmm I thought I was just reading too much into things when I suspected that... perhaps... there was more to the Zev-Tal "friendship" than had been stated in words. I got the impression that Tal was more invested in the relationship than Zev was, though.

[Sabriana]

Never had any encounter/scene where I could assume they were lovers. Plus, to get the cut-scene where he talks about Rinna, my PC has to have a pretty high approval with him, else he just declines to talk about it. Or maybe he doesn't because my PC usually says "If you don't want to talk about it, that's ok"

What I hear plainly is that Zevran doesn't 'mix business with pleasure' and is hell-bent on avoiding complications on that end. Two assassins of the same crow cell being lovers (whether it's f/m, f/f, or m/m) could lead to major complications, conflicts, and repercussions.

I do agree with the part about him being seemingly a bit dense about the fact that Taliesen has played a major part in the death of the woman he felt so much for that it scared him witless.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

I assumed they had some loving going at some point... (Friends and more, coming from Zevran, Earth to the clueless... Bring Cheetos, Crunchy)



If you get him to adore, he will stay and fight with you. I didn't think this was that hard to figure out.

[Sialater]

Tibbi_Sunshine wrote...

So I've played throught the Zevran and Taliesin scene six ways from Sunday, and I'm a little disappointed that at no point do you get a Cunning check to basically reality slap Zev with the fact that Taliesin set up Rinna because he was jealous of Zev's attraction to her.  Reading between the lines, I think it's pretty obvious--I mean almost flat-out admits that he and Taliesin were lovers if you have the encounter at a lower level of Approval (say around 40 or so).  And then Taliesin admits that he personally took the contract so he could come get Zev (conveniently killing another potential love interest in the bargain.)  Hellooooooo?  Earth to the assassin?  Maybe your "old friend" there wasn't such an up-and-up buddy and went around killing your girlfriends? So MAYBE instea of ditching my butt at a fairly decent approval level and opting out of the fight I could give him a check to make him stay and fight?

I mean, if you can Cunning check Alistair regarding his daddy issues, surely there should be one with Zev.

I agree with your conclusion about Rinna and the relationship between Zevran and Taliesin, but I've never had Zev betray me for Taliesin.  So, a cunning check would do me no good.

[Creature 1]

I wondered about that, but I figured Zevran would be suspicious-minded enough to have thought of this already and come to the conclusion that Taliesin did no more than take advantage of a situation that he did not himself set up. I think Taliesin and Zevran were fooled, in Taliesin's case perhaps willingly.

[Tibbi_Sunshine]

Sialater wrote...

I agree with your conclusion about Rinna and the relationship between Zevran and Taliesin, but I've never had Zev betray me for Taliesin.  So, a cunning check would do me no good.

He never betrayed me, but the first run-through I was very surprised that he wouldn't stay and fight, especially since he was somewhere above Interested, at least I think, and it left me down a man.

[JosieJ]

Sialater wrote...

Tibbi_Sunshine wrote...

So I've played throught the Zevran and Taliesin scene six ways from Sunday, and I'm a little disappointed that at no point do you get a Cunning check to basically reality slap Zev with the fact that Taliesin set up Rinna because he was jealous of Zev's attraction to her.  Reading between the lines, I think it's pretty obvious--I mean almost flat-out admits that he and Taliesin were lovers if you have the encounter at a lower level of Approval (say around 40 or so).  And then Taliesin admits that he personally took the contract so he could come get Zev (conveniently killing another potential love interest in the bargain.)  Hellooooooo?  Earth to the assassin?  Maybe your "old friend" there wasn't such an up-and-up buddy and went around killing your girlfriends? So MAYBE instea of ditching my butt at a fairly decent approval level and opting out of the fight I could give him a check to make him stay and fight?

I mean, if you can Cunning check Alistair regarding his daddy issues, surely there should be one with Zev.

I agree with your conclusion about Rinna and the relationship between Zevran and Taliesin, but I've never had Zev betray me for Taliesin.  So, a cunning check would do me no good.

Ditto.  I believe the devs didn't include a Cunning check because they intended Zev's choice of what to do during that fight to be a consequence of the PC's choice to gain approval with him--or not.

[Sialater]

Well, he's got to feel more strongly for your character than Taliesin. Otherwise, he stays neutral.





I've discovered, if you have to dump him for Alistair, to tell him up front. And don't mention Al. You take a smaller hit on the approval that way (-13 instead of -26), and save a gift for afterward. He stayed in my party and I had to build a group around him. (I'm waiting to see if I have to choose between the boys again.)



Unfortunately, you don't get a chance to reason with him at all. But then, you don't get a chance to reason with Alistair or Morrigan over some of their boneheaded moves, either. It's funny that Lelianna is the least complicated romance in the game.

[ejoslin]

While I agree that Taliesen and Zevran were lovers and that Taliesen was trying to get Zevran back, I don't think a cunning check was needed as it's not about Taliesen at that point, it's about, as others have said, the PC. In fact, I think Zevran already knew that Taliesen had set Rinna up -- he's neither dumb or naive. And Taliesen DOES say he took the contract to get Zevran back -- those aren't the exact words, but he took it to see Zevran and ask him to come back.  

In fact, if the PC points out in order for Zevran to go back she'd have to be dead, Zevran says, "And I'm not about to let that happen," so it's not like anyone needs an awareness here. There's just no need for a cunning check, because if there's any companion who is a match for the PC regarding understanding of situations, it's Zevran.

Edit: Taliesen had offered to go with Zevran to kill the PC and Zevran turned him down, saying he didn't need the help.  So he had already begun to distance himself from Taliesen, though whether he had realized that Taliesen had set Rinna up, I'm not sure.

Modifié par ejoslin, 04 janvier 2010 - 04:20 .

[ReubenLiew]

Why should Zevran care about letting Taliesan killing Rinna if you haven't made him realize his ability to love? Before that he's far too scared to fall in love to blame Taliesan.

[ejoslin]

Ok, second thought on this. Say Zevran still wasn't clued in. What on earth would be the point of a cunning check to get this admission? To rub Zevran's face in the fact that yet another person he cared for deeply betrayed him? After this encounter, if you've been romancing him, he's yours unless you tell him you don't feel the same.



Zevran constantly tells you throughout his stories that he doesn't want to focus on the past, but on the future. He tells you to ignore his scars as he does so they can fade away. I would think if there was a cunning check there, it would make sense that if you pushed it, you would lose him.

[BlastedLands]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Why should Zevran care about letting Taliesan killing Rinna if you haven't made him realize his ability to love? Before that he's far too scared to fall in love to blame Taliesan.

subconsciousness is a funny thing, right? anybody actually never acted different to what he felt?

[Sialater]

ejoslin wrote...

Ok, second thought on this. Say Zevran still wasn't clued in. What on earth would be the point of a cunning check to get this admission? To rub Zevran's face in the fact that yet another person he cared for deeply betrayed him? After this encounter, if you've been romancing him, he's yours unless you tell him you don't feel the same.

Zevran constantly tells you throughout his stories that he doesn't want to focus on the past, but on the future. He tells you to ignore his scars as he does so they can fade away. I would think if there was a cunning check there, it would make sense that if you pushed it, you would lose him.

He's yours anyway, if you do it right.   I dumped him right before Taliesin.  Felt absolutely awful, though.

[Tibbi_Sunshine]

ejoslin wrote...

Ok, second thought on this. Say Zevran still wasn't clued in. What on earth would be the point of a cunning check to get this admission? To rub Zevran's face in the fact that yet another person he cared for deeply betrayed him? After this encounter, if you've been romancing him, he's yours unless you tell him you don't feel the same.

Zevran constantly tells you throughout his stories that he doesn't want to focus on the past, but on the future. He tells you to ignore his scars as he does so they can fade away. I would think if there was a cunning check there, it would make sense that if you pushed it, you would lose him.

For the same reason there's any other cunning check--to add Dialogue interest, or for other interesting options.  To add backstory.  I can't think of a Cunning check I've come across that had serious game ramifications, you can call Alistair's pseudo-dog mom a b*tch, you can call him out WRT Eamon and his relationship.  You'd just think there'd be one, since it's so obvious, especially if you're low to middle approval, as a last ditch effort to pick Team PC.

Modifié par Tibbi_Sunshine, 04 janvier 2010 - 04:35 .

[ejoslin]

Sialater wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Ok, second thought on this. Say Zevran still wasn't clued in. What on earth would be the point of a cunning check to get this admission? To rub Zevran's face in the fact that yet another person he cared for deeply betrayed him? After this encounter, if you've been romancing him, he's yours unless you tell him you don't feel the same.

Zevran constantly tells you throughout his stories that he doesn't want to focus on the past, but on the future. He tells you to ignore his scars as he does so they can fade away. I would think if there was a cunning check there, it would make sense that if you pushed it, you would lose him.

He's yours anyway, if you do it right.   I dumped him right before Taliesin.  Felt absolutely awful, though.

It is after Taliesen that it deepens for him.  I actually have him at 100 love in this play through BEFORE Taliesen, but I've been informed that's a bug (I think it's an easter egg).  However, even at 100 love before Taliesen, there are things that just don't happen.  You could argue that he's yours either when you go to the tent with him or he starts to care. 

If you tell him AFTER Taliesen that it's just casual for you, he breaks up with you.  I don't think you even have that option beforehand.

However, my point was that rubbing Zevran's face in Taliesen's betrayal is not only unnecessary, but extremely cruel as well.

[Sialater]

But if you're low to middle approval, why would you care if he picked your side? You've ignored him the whole game.

[ReubenLiew]

Well if you romanced Alistair you could let Loghain live, AND then have him executed by Anora too, that's pretty damn cruel, why not the same for Zev?

[ejoslin]

Tibbi_Sunshine wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Ok, second thought on this. Say Zevran still wasn't clued in. What on earth would be the point of a cunning check to get this admission? To rub Zevran's face in the fact that yet another person he cared for deeply betrayed him? After this encounter, if you've been romancing him, he's yours unless you tell him you don't feel the same.

Zevran constantly tells you throughout his stories that he doesn't want to focus on the past, but on the future. He tells you to ignore his scars as he does so they can fade away. I would think if there was a cunning check there, it would make sense that if you pushed it, you would lose him.

For the same reason there's any other cunning check--to add Dialogue interest, or for other interesting options.  To add backstory.  I can't think of a Cunning check I've come across that had serious game ramifications, you can call Alistair's pseudo-dog mom a b*tch, you can call him out WRT Eamon and his relationship.  You'd just think there'd be one, since it's so obvious, especially if you're low to middle approval, as a last ditch effort to pick Team PC.

If you're middle approval, he'll leave, but he won't betray you.  He's torn.  If you're low approval, he won't care either way.  It's not about Taliesen.  It's about his feelings for the PC.  Again, Zevran is the one who picks up on situations quickly in the various zones.  He understands why Bhelen would be a better king.  He is the first to say that Arl Eamon's illness and the undead are connected.  He sees situations and sizes them up quickly.

Edit: The back story is there, and very interesting to read.  There are things in this game I think should be left alone.  The Zevran romance is one.  I'd write others, but I'd get Alistair fangirls mad at me :happy:

Modifié par ejoslin, 04 janvier 2010 - 04:40 .

[Sialater]

ejoslin wrote...

Sialater wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Ok, second thought on this. Say Zevran still wasn't clued in. What on earth would be the point of a cunning check to get this admission? To rub Zevran's face in the fact that yet another person he cared for deeply betrayed him? After this encounter, if you've been romancing him, he's yours unless you tell him you don't feel the same.

Zevran constantly tells you throughout his stories that he doesn't want to focus on the past, but on the future. He tells you to ignore his scars as he does so they can fade away. I would think if there was a cunning check there, it would make sense that if you pushed it, you would lose him.

He's yours anyway, if you do it right.   I dumped him right before Taliesin.  Felt absolutely awful, though.

It is after Taliesen that it deepens for him.  I actually have him at 100 love in this play through BEFORE Taliesen, but I've been informed that's a bug (I think it's an easter egg).  However, even at 100 love before Taliesen, there are things that just don't happen.  You could argue that he's yours either when you go to the tent with him or he starts to care. 

If you tell him AFTER Taliesen that it's just casual for you, he breaks up with you.  I don't think you even have that option beforehand.

However, my point was that rubbing Zevran's face in Taliesen's betrayal is not only unnecessary, but extremely cruel as well.

Hmmm, interesting, but like I said, I broke up with him before Taliesin.  I haven't been able to talk to him at all since then, and he's still at or near 100% for me, and it's after Taliesin.  I'm on the 360, so I can't tell for sure what he's at.

[Tibbi_Sunshine]

Sialater wrote...

But if you're low to middle approval, why would you care if he picked your side? You've ignored him the whole game.

Actually, in my first play-through, I didn't get him until very late in the game.  I halfway finished a bunch of places and never finished a complete Ally quest until I figured out I should've gone to the Tower first.  THEN I got Zev.  Just in time to finish up some loose ends and head off to Denerim and get the Taliesin experience.  Did it much better the second time through, but still it struck me as kind of odd that in none of your choices (which includes, "Fine, I'll just kill you both.") you don't get, "You wouldn't seriously ditch me for your Stalker, right?"

[ejoslin]

Sialater wrote...

Hmmm, interesting, but like I said, I broke up with him before Taliesin.  I haven't been able to talk to him at all since then, and he's still at or near 100% for me, and it's after Taliesin.  I'm on the 360, so I can't tell for sure what he's at.

It really depends on why you break up with someone.  I found that if you dump Alistair or Zevran for the other, they won't take you back.  But if you break up for other reasons, they may.  The romance with Zevran doesn't get deep until after that encounter.  I'd seriously suggest trying it in a different play through.  It's amazing how deep it gets.

Modifié par ejoslin, 04 janvier 2010 - 04:47 .

[ejoslin]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Well if you romanced Alistair you could let Loghain live, AND then have him executed by Anora too, that's pretty damn cruel, why not the same for Zev?

Well, you can get Zevran to fall in love, then let him know you don't feel the same and watch his reaction.  Or sacrifice yourself.  Either way, you destroy him.

[Creature 1]

ejoslin wrote...
Edit: Taliesen had offered to go with Zevran to kill the PC and Zevran turned him down, saying he didn't need the help.  So he had already begun to distance himself from Taliesen, though whether he had realized that Taliesen had set Rinna up, I'm not sure.

Zevran also considered this contract a suicide attempt, a good reason to not bring a friend. 

[Sialater]

ejoslin wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Hmmm, interesting, but like I said, I broke up with him before Taliesin.  I haven't been able to talk to him at all since then, and he's still at or near 100% for me, and it's after Taliesin.  I'm on the 360, so I can't tell for sure what he's at.

It really depends on why you break up with someone.  I found that if you dump Alistair or Zevran for the other, they won't take you back.  But if you break up for other reasons, they may.  The romance with Zevran doesn't get deep until after that encounter.  I'd seriously suggest trying it in a different play through.  It's amazing how deep it gets.

He'll be getting my City Elf girl, when I finally get to play again.  (Mass Effect 2 will be interrupting any othe rgaming for awhile, soon.)  He'll also get any dwarves I play, if I decide to play one.  I doubt a dwarf would like Al.