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[ejoslin]

Creature 1 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
Edit: Taliesen had offered to go with Zevran to kill the PC and Zevran turned him down, saying he didn't need the help.  So he had already begun to distance himself from Taliesen, though whether he had realized that Taliesen had set Rinna up, I'm not sure.

Zevran also considered this contract a suicide attempt, a good reason to not bring a friend. 

Yep.  He wanted to die.  *sigh* Most of his dialogs make me want to cry or laugh or both.  If you tell him he's a bit cold, he tells you you should be surprised he's not much colder.  And that's his true downfall; no matter what, he is basically a caring person.

[ejoslin]

Sialater wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Hmmm, interesting, but like I said, I broke up with him before Taliesin.  I haven't been able to talk to him at all since then, and he's still at or near 100% for me, and it's after Taliesin.  I'm on the 360, so I can't tell for sure what he's at.

It really depends on why you break up with someone.  I found that if you dump Alistair or Zevran for the other, they won't take you back.  But if you break up for other reasons, they may.  The romance with Zevran doesn't get deep until after that encounter.  I'd seriously suggest trying it in a different play through.  It's amazing how deep it gets.

He'll be getting my City Elf girl, when I finally get to play again.  (Mass Effect 2 will be interrupting any othe rgaming for awhile, soon.)  He'll also get any dwarves I play, if I decide to play one.  I doubt a dwarf would like Al. 

I'll sound REALLY strange for saying this, but the kiss between the dwarf and Zevran is the best of all the kisses (the one, since you're on an xbox and can't mod, where you invite him to your tent on subsequent occasions).  The main problem is the dwarf seems to grow, and Zevran looks so fragile next to her.

[Sabriana]

I still don't see them as former lovers, sorry. I guess I'm too sold on Zevran's story of how it was Rinna who stirred up deep feelings in him to the point of scaring him.

I also believe that Zevran never did mix business with pleasure, and that the PC is an exception. I can see that they might have been casual sex partners, but in my opinion Zevran feels no love for Taliesin, not in the conventional kind, where love means deep feelings that can scare someone.

Friendship, yes. Kinship, yes. Maybe even a sense of family, but not lovers in the conventional sense. To the way I play, that would make no sense.

What does make sense though is that perhaps Taliesin read more into this relationship than Zevran, and that this was the reason he (Taliesin)

a) set up Rinna, and

tried to kill the PC

On another note, Ejoslin, you amaze me. Now that's dedication if I ever saw it.

[Sialater]

Sabriana wrote...

I still don't see them as former lovers, sorry. I guess I'm too sold on Zevran's story of how it was Rinna who stirred up deep feelings in him to the point of scaring him.
I also believe that Zevran never did mix business with pleasure, and that the PC is an exception. I can see that they might have been casual sex partners, but in my opinion Zevran feels no love for Taliesin, not in the conventional kind, where love means deep feelings that can scare someone.
Friendship, yes. Kinship, yes. Maybe even a sense of family, but not lovers in the conventional sense. To the way I play, that would make no sense.
What does make sense though is that perhaps Taliesin read more into this relationship than Zevran, and that this was the reason he (Taliesin)
a) set up Rinna, and
tried to kill the PC
On another note, Ejoslin, you amaze me. Now that's dedication if I ever saw it.

I don't think anyone said ZEVRAN was in love with Taliesin....

[Sabriana]

Sorry, might be a language thing. I'm not English, and "lover", to me, means love is involved.

[Sialater]

Sabriana wrote...

Sorry, might be a language thing. I'm not English, and "lover", to me, means love is involved.

Lover means there's sex involved.  Not that emotion is.  At least not in the US.


Taliesin could have been in love with Zevran, but Zevran could have just not returned the feelings, but still been lovers with him. 

[Creature 1]

I think Sialater means that Taliesin's feelings for Zevran were not returned.



"Lover" is an ambiguous word, usually when people are said to be lovers they have some type of relationship, but sometimes it's just sex.

[ejoslin]

Sabriana wrote...

I still don't see them as former lovers, sorry. I guess I'm too sold on Zevran's story of how it was Rinna who stirred up deep feelings in him to the point of scaring him.
I also believe that Zevran never did mix business with pleasure, and that the PC is an exception. I can see that they might have been casual sex partners, but in my opinion Zevran feels no love for Taliesin, not in the conventional kind, where love means deep feelings that can scare someone.
Friendship, yes. Kinship, yes. Maybe even a sense of family, but not lovers in the conventional sense. To the way I play, that would make no sense.
What does make sense though is that perhaps Taliesin read more into this relationship than Zevran, and that this was the reason he (Taliesin)
a) set up Rinna, and
tried to kill the PC
On another note, Ejoslin, you amaze me. Now that's dedication if I ever saw it.

That's ummmm, a bit embarassing.  I love the Zevran romance, though.  I think Zevran and Taliesen were lovers because, if he leaves you during the fight he says something like, "Taliesen, we were friends, and we were more than friends," (he only did this during my first play through so I may have the wording wrong).  And I think it's clear that Taliesen felt more for Zevran, and was threated by Rinna.

[Creature 1]

ejoslin wrote...
That's ummmm, a bit embarassing.  I love the Zevran romance, though.  I think Zevran and Taliesen were lovers because, if he leaves you during the fight he says something like, "Taliesen, we were friends, and we were more than friends," (he only did this during my first play through so I may have the wording wrong).  And I think it's clear that Taliesen felt more for Zevran, and was threated by Rinna.

I think they were extremely close friends with benefits, Taliesin was probably actually in love.   

I'm not convinced Taliesin set Rinna up, but I'm sure he resented her.

[JosieJ]

Sialater wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

Sorry, might be a language thing. I'm not English, and "lover", to me, means love is involved.

Lover means there's sex involved.  Not that emotion is.  At least not in the US.


Taliesin could have been in love with Zevran, but Zevran could have just not returned the feelings, but still been lovers with him. 

Considering Zev goes to considerable trouble to point out that there are no strings attached the first time he has sex with the PC, it's no surprise that he'd be OK with a "friends with benefits" arrangement with anyone, including Taliesin--whatever Taliesin might feel about it.

[Sabriana]

Lol, oh the ambiguity of the game. Isn't it wonderful? To me, being more than friends doesn't necessarily mean being lovers. Over here men hug each other and might even kiss each other on the cheek and no one throws the 'gay' flag up. I guess it would be different in the US then?

Anyway, I love it how everyone can read something different into the game, it's fabulous.

About the 'lovers' part, it really is a language thing then. I translated it literally, derived from love. I guess that ash-warrior had something there when he answered her "But you obviously aren't made out of ash" with "Do you take everything so literally?"

Yeah, I have the game installed in English. A bit tough here and there, but it helps me with keeping my English from rusting.

Aside from that, I think that the English/Spanish accent is far more sexy than the German/Spanish one. Hmm could also be the voice actor though.

Don't be embarrassed Ejoslin. I love the romance all to pieces too, but I haven't your patience. Everytime I see a post of yours in a Zevran related thread, I all but rush over

[Creature 1]

Sabriana wrote...

Lol, oh the ambiguity of the game. Isn't it wonderful? To me, being more than friends doesn't necessarily mean being lovers. Over here men hug each other and might even kiss each other on the cheek and no one throws the 'gay' flag up. I guess it would be different in the US then?

Here guys don't even like to hug.  (Unless they're evangelical Christians, who seem to be more touchy-feely!  )  Kissing a guy, even on the cheek, would raise eyebrows.  Even brothers rarely kiss. 

Yeah, I have the game installed in English. A bit tough here and there, but it helps me with keeping my English from rusting.

Your English is very good.  I wouldn't have guessed you aren't a native speaker, except that maybe your English is too good!  [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]

[Sabriana]

Thank you, Creature, that's very kind of you.



I wonder what else I translated too literally, or perhaps not literally enough. I guess my best bet would be to listen to the voice inflections. (Yay, another reason to woo Zevran again). Or maybe I just toddle behind Ejoslin some more.

Or both.

[Sialater]

Any excuse to replay is a good one.

[Sabriana]

Sialater wrote...

Any excuse to replay is a good one.

And there you have it. I just have to go and see what else I might have mistranslated or translated far to literally. I mean it's abou the psychology. And sociology. And interpersonal as well as intrapersonal relationships. It's educational, you see.

What? Wait! Are you laughing?

[ejoslin]

Creature 1 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
That's ummmm, a bit embarassing.  I love the Zevran romance, though.  I think Zevran and Taliesen were lovers because, if he leaves you during the fight he says something like, "Taliesen, we were friends, and we were more than friends," (he only did this during my first play through so I may have the wording wrong).  And I think it's clear that Taliesen felt more for Zevran, and was threated by Rinna.

I think they were extremely close friends with benefits, Taliesin was probably actually in love.   

I'm not convinced Taliesin set Rinna up, but I'm sure he resented her.

You could be right.  Again, the one thing Zevran is not is a fool -- since he doesn't say one way or the other, it's up to our interpretation.  Which would actually be another good argument against a cunning check!  I know I am reminded a little of a cat fight at the Taliesen encounter if the PC tells him, "Zevran belongs with me, now."  It also shows that even Zevran realizes he's a changed man.

[ejoslin]

Sabriana wrote...

Lol, oh the ambiguity of the game. Isn't it wonderful? To me, being more than friends doesn't necessarily mean being lovers. Over here men hug each other and might even kiss each other on the cheek and no one throws the 'gay' flag up. I guess it would be different in the US then?
Anyway, I love it how everyone can read something different into the game, it's fabulous.
About the 'lovers' part, it really is a language thing then. I translated it literally, derived from love. I guess that ash-warrior had something there when he answered her "But you obviously aren't made out of ash" with "Do you take everything so literally?"
Yeah, I have the game installed in English. A bit tough here and there, but it helps me with keeping my English from rusting.
Aside from that, I think that the English/Spanish accent is far more sexy than the German/Spanish one. Hmm could also be the voice actor though.
Don't be embarrassed Ejoslin. I love the romance all to pieces too, but I haven't your patience. Everytime I see a post of yours in a Zevran related thread, I all but rush over

Wow, thank you!  I am definitely a devoted Zevran fangirl.  

Your English IS excellent.  

And I agree -- my favorite part of the game is how you can read the situations so differently.  You can even choose dialog to back up the way you're reading it so much of the time.  Things like . . . well, when you give him the gloves.  Depending on how you initially answer him, the rest of the dialog, though the same, will come off as deeply moved, surprised but happy, or a bit unsure.  I'm still amazed at what a good job the writers did with this.

[Creature 1]

I suspect Zevran believes that Taliesin did not lie to him intentionally about Rinna.



Taliesin's attitude towards Zevran at the initial confrontation is not exactly friendly, it seemed to me a bit contemptuous. Then once Zevran refuses to go he's downright hostile.



Rather ridiculous, but I see some parallels between Carmen and Don Jose and Zevran and Taliesin. Both Carmen and Zevran are pleasure-seeking fatalists, and Don Jose and Taliesin both have a "if I can't have you I'll destroy you" approach.

[JosieJ]

Creature 1 wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

Lol, oh the ambiguity of the game. Isn't it wonderful? To me, being more than friends doesn't necessarily mean being lovers. Over here men hug each other and might even kiss each other on the cheek and no one throws the 'gay' flag up. I guess it would be different in the US then?

Here guys don't even like to hug.  (Unless they're evangelical Christians, who seem to be more touchy-feely!  )  Kissing a guy, even on the cheek, would raise eyebrows.  Even brothers rarely kiss. 

Unfortunately true, we're still a very homophobic society--and I especially mean that in the sense of there being a fear of being perceived as gay. 

"More than friends" just connotates lovers to me--maybe that's a function of me growing up in this society.  I personally would consider guys friends no matter how many public displays of affection they showed, but if they told me they were more than friends, I'd think they were telling me they were lovers.

And I agree, Sabriana, your English is excellent--better than too many native speakers I know!

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Sabriana's English is excellent. "Lover" is one of those terms in English that is rather lax in meaning. A lover is basically someone you engage in the physical act of love with, in otherwords, sex, and emotional attachment could be involved. But it just as often not, and thus, lover can be used in a similar context as a "bed buddy". Somone you have sex with, but aren't neccesaryily in love with.



The word "beloved", however, pretty much means that that person is loved, that the relationship involves very strong, deep feelings. It is one of those oddities of English, but I understand the confusion, as I speak German, and lived in Germany for some time, and given the nature of the German language, it's easy to see the confusion.



I never knew Zevy and Talesin were lovers. Every time I had the encounter, I was always at very high approval, either on the love track, or a strong friend with Zev, so that little bit of information never came up. I had always wondered why Talesin lied about Rinna, whether there was some personal grudge there. Nothing in my conversations suggested that Talesin was anything other than another assassin that Zevran had a professional working relationship with, and the meeting pretty much didn't reveal much at that point.



How fascinating. yet another mystery in the puzzle that is everyone's favorite Antivan.

[Antikristine]

I didn't think of Zevran and Taliesin's relationship to be a romantic or sexual one until I started reading the Zevran threads on this forum. I just interpreted their relationship as one of close friends or colleagues. But considering that Zevran swings both ways, and wants us to believe that he enjoys sex with whoever he wants whenever he wants, there are indeed a lot of indications that they indeed had a sexual relationship. When thinking about it, I think it's quite likely that they had, but I don't think that really matters. They were close, and Taliesin betrayed Zevran, end of story.



There's of course the possibility that he got Rinna killed out of jealousy, but from Zevran's story I got the feeling that both Zevran and Taliesin believed her to a traitor. It was only Zevran's feelings for her that made him doubt it.

[Sialater]

Well, we still don't "know" they were. Neither admits it, as far as I can tell. It's just reading between the lines with what you know of Zevran.

[ejoslin]

Antikristine wrote...

I didn't think of Zevran and Taliesin's relationship to be a romantic or sexual one until I started reading the Zevran threads on this forum. I just interpreted their relationship as one of close friends or colleagues. But considering that Zevran swings both ways, and wants us to believe that he enjoys sex with whoever he wants whenever he wants, there are indeed a lot of indications that they indeed had a sexual relationship. When thinking about it, I think it's quite likely that they had, but I don't think that really matters. They were close, and Taliesin betrayed Zevran, end of story.

There's of course the possibility that he got Rinna killed out of jealousy, but from Zevran's story I got the feeling that both Zevran and Taliesin believed her to a traitor. It was only Zevran's feelings for her that made him doubt it.

Taliesen told him, Zevran believed him.  But Zevran wanted to believe it.  But what I found very interesting was it was that that showed him exactly what he was, how he was viewed.  I missed it the first time I went through it, I was so focused on Rinna, what he was saying about himself. It wasn't only about his regrets about killing her, and I don't know if you can know whether he loved her or not -- I don't think he was capable of love at that point, but he certainly desired and admired her.  But when the crow master made him realize that to them he was nothing, and she had been nothing, what else was there for him?

He berates himself at one point for not being cold enough (I love the dialog choices that don't go for max approval -- you get so much insight into the characters).

This probably belongs in the Zevran love thread!

[Antikristine]

ejoslin wrote...

Taliesen told him, Zevran believed him.  But Zevran wanted to believe it.  But what I found very interesting was it was that that showed him exactly what he was, how he was viewed.  I missed it the first time I went through it, I was so focused on Rinna, what he was saying about himself. It wasn't only about his regrets about killing her, and I don't know if you can know whether he loved her or not -- I don't think he was capable of love at that point, but he certainly desired and admired her.  But when the crow master made him realize that to them he was nothing, and she had been nothing, what else was there for him?

He berates himself at one point for not being cold enough (I love the dialog choices that don't go for max approval -- you get so much insight into the characters).

This probably belongs in the Zevran love thread!

Hehe... all Zevran threads end up as "Zevran love" threads

I also think I got too involved in the tragic love story of Rinna to pay attention to (or bother about) what kind of relationship Zevran and Taliesen had. But the way I interpreted the Rinna story was that Zevran truly did love her, in his own way. It was, however, the first time he loved anybody, and he possibly didn't understand the feeling or confused it with lust. He came to realize it after having processed his emotions after her death. He told us he spat in her face and slit her throat, and that he wanted to believe she was a traitor. I guess he felt the pain of losing her just after he realized she indeed was innocent, and that might be the moment when he started to realize he loved her.

While retrospective love may be an illusion, I believe that Zevran changed after he learned that she was innocent, and this was probably also the time he told himself never to do the same mistake again. This is why the love he develops for the PC is more mature than the love he felt for Rinna, and also more mature than the love Alistair may develop for the female PC.

[ejoslin]

Antikristine wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Taliesen told him, Zevran believed him.  But Zevran wanted to believe it.  But what I found very interesting was it was that that showed him exactly what he was, how he was viewed.  I missed it the first time I went through it, I was so focused on Rinna, what he was saying about himself. It wasn't only about his regrets about killing her, and I don't know if you can know whether he loved her or not -- I don't think he was capable of love at that point, but he certainly desired and admired her.  But when the crow master made him realize that to them he was nothing, and she had been nothing, what else was there for him?

He berates himself at one point for not being cold enough (I love the dialog choices that don't go for max approval -- you get so much insight into the characters).

This probably belongs in the Zevran love thread!

Hehe... all Zevran threads end up as "Zevran love" threads

I also think I got too involved in the tragic love story of Rinna to pay attention to (or bother about) what kind of relationship Zevran and Taliesen had. But the way I interpreted the Rinna story was that Zevran truly did love her, in his own way. It was, however, the first time he loved anybody, and he possibly didn't understand the feeling or confused it with lust. He came to realize it after having processed his emotions after her death. He told us he spat in her face and slit her throat, and that he wanted to believe she was a traitor. I guess he felt the pain of losing her just after he realized she indeed was innocent, and that might be the moment when he started to realize he loved her.

While retrospective love may be an illusion, I believe that Zevran changed after he learned that she was innocent, and this was probably also the time he told himself never to do the same mistake again. This is why the love he develops for the PC is more mature than the love he felt for Rinna, and also more mature than the love Alistair may develop for the female PC.

Ah, but you ask him if he felt guilty and he says, "I felt like I was nothing.  I felt like she had been nothing."  Realizing he was absolutely nothing to the crows, the thing he took great pride in (probably as much pride as Ali had about being the Gray Wardens) was also a crushing blow.  And the look on his face as he's saying that.  He may have loved her, but it wasn't the only dynamic that was going on there.  He killed her for the crows, and then realized that the crows didn't care, not about her, not about him.  He alludes to these things all along, but it doesn't really tie in until he talks about this mission.