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[Creature 1]

Thanks to this thread I have an extremely unpleasant plot bunny in my head. I may have to write up the backstory, although it would fail fanfiction.net standards for sexual and violent content.

[Antikristine]

ejoslin wrote...

Antikristine wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Taliesen told him, Zevran believed him.  But Zevran wanted to believe it.  But what I found very interesting was it was that that showed him exactly what he was, how he was viewed.  I missed it the first time I went through it, I was so focused on Rinna, what he was saying about himself. It wasn't only about his regrets about killing her, and I don't know if you can know whether he loved her or not -- I don't think he was capable of love at that point, but he certainly desired and admired her.  But when the crow master made him realize that to them he was nothing, and she had been nothing, what else was there for him?

He berates himself at one point for not being cold enough (I love the dialog choices that don't go for max approval -- you get so much insight into the characters).

This probably belongs in the Zevran love thread!

Hehe... all Zevran threads end up as "Zevran love" threads

I also think I got too involved in the tragic love story of Rinna to pay attention to (or bother about) what kind of relationship Zevran and Taliesen had. But the way I interpreted the Rinna story was that Zevran truly did love her, in his own way. It was, however, the first time he loved anybody, and he possibly didn't understand the feeling or confused it with lust. He came to realize it after having processed his emotions after her death. He told us he spat in her face and slit her throat, and that he wanted to believe she was a traitor. I guess he felt the pain of losing her just after he realized she indeed was innocent, and that might be the moment when he started to realize he loved her.

While retrospective love may be an illusion, I believe that Zevran changed after he learned that she was innocent, and this was probably also the time he told himself never to do the same mistake again. This is why the love he develops for the PC is more mature than the love he felt for Rinna, and also more mature than the love Alistair may develop for the female PC.

Ah, but you ask him if he felt guilty and he says, "I felt like I was nothing.  I felt like she had been nothing."  Realizing he was absolutely nothing to the crows, the thing he took great pride in (probably as much pride as Ali had about being the Gray Wardens) was also a crushing blow.  And the look on his face as he's saying that.  He may have loved her, but it wasn't the only dynamic that was going on there.  He killed her for the crows, and then realized that the crows didn't care, not about her, not about him.  He alludes to these things all along, but it doesn't really tie in until he talks about this mission.

True indeed, which actually just adds to the idea that this was a turning point for Zevran.

The killing of Rinna did stir a lot of emotions in Zevran, and whether it was the realization that he didn't mean more for the Crows, or the realization that he actually did care for Rinna that meant most to him is hard to say. It is probably also hard for Zevran to separate between these two tragic revelations.

This very much fits in with what I wanted to imply when I wrote that retrospective love may be an illusion. Maybe the idea that he loved her came as a reaction to the whole incident? There must have been a lot for him to process -. not only did he kill someone he was greatly attracted to, he also felt that he was betrayed by his friend Taliesin, as well as by the Crows to which he thought he was a great asset.

[ejoslin]

Antikristine wrote...



True indeed, which actually just adds to the idea that this was a turning point for Zevran.

The killing of Rinna did stir a lot of emotions in Zevran, and whether it was the realization that he didn't mean more for the Crows, or the realization that he actually did care for Rinna that meant most to him is hard to say. It is probably also hard for Zevran to separate between these two tragic revelations.

This very much fits in with what I wanted to imply when I wrote that retrospective love may be an illusion. Maybe the idea that he loved her came as a reaction to the whole incident? There must have been a lot for him to process -. not only did he kill someone he was greatly attracted to, he also felt that he was betrayed by his friend Taliesin, as well as by the Crows to which he thought he was a great asset.

Is it any wonder he wanted to die?  I think beginning again was something that had never even occurred to him.  When you look at his original attack, though, it was designed to fail.  He didn't use surprise, cunning, or anything -- he even warned the PC before the attack happened.  When he told the PC that had he taken Taliesen with him, either the PC or he would have died, he's right. He may have succeeded in killing her because it most certainly would not have been a straight out fight.

A humorous party dialog is if you have Zevran and Loghain in your party.  Zevran reports to him that the crows failed in their mission to kill the Gray Warden.  Loghain thanks him for informing him.  It's funnier when you hear it though!

Modifié par ejoslin, 04 janvier 2010 - 11:15 .

[Kohaku]

Creature 1 wrote...

Thanks to this thread I have an extremely unpleasant plot bunny in my head. I may have to write up the backstory, although it would fail fanfiction.net standards for sexual and violent content.

I didn't know they had specifics for what could be posted there. I stay away from there for the most part unless there is something interesting I'd like to read there. Some of the forum users have interesting stories so I venture there.

[MorningBird]

ejoslin wrote...

A humorous party dialog is if you have Zevran and Loghain in your party.  Zevran reports to him that the crows failed in their mission to kill the Gray Warden.  Loghain thanks him for informing him.  It's funnier when you hear it though!

You mean this? www.youtube.com/watch

[ejoslin]

Youtube ruins the fun for everyone! *grin* That banter was worth Alistair hating my PC.

[MorningBird]

ejoslin wrote...

Youtube ruins the fun for everyone! *grin* That banter was worth Alistair hating my PC.

I know what you mean.  This little piece of dialog is possibly the only reason I'm keeping Loghain alive this time around.  I also just want to learn more about why he quit the field, but that's off-topic, so I'll be handing things back to over to you now.

[Creature 1]

ejoslin wrote...
Is it any wonder he wanted to die?  I think beginning again was something that had never even occurred to him.  When you look at his original attack, though, it was designed to fail.  He didn't use surprise, cunning, or anything -- he even warned the PC before the attack happened.  When he told the PC that had he taken Taliesen with him, either the PC or he would have died, he's right. He may have succeeded in killing her because it most certainly would not have been a straight out fight.

I actually am writing a fanfiction right now and note this.  I assume the mage who runs ahead to spot the party is Zevran's second-in-command, and he has some snide thoughts about her intelligence for not recognizing the flaws in their ambush plan. 

[ejoslin]

Creature 1 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
Is it any wonder he wanted to die?  I think beginning again was something that had never even occurred to him.  When you look at his original attack, though, it was designed to fail.  He didn't use surprise, cunning, or anything -- he even warned the PC before the attack happened.  When he told the PC that had he taken Taliesen with him, either the PC or he would have died, he's right. He may have succeeded in killing her because it most certainly would not have been a straight out fight.

I actually am writing a fanfiction right now and note this.  I assume the mage who runs ahead to spot the party is Zevran's second-in-command, and he has some snide thoughts about her intelligence for not recognizing the flaws in their ambush plan. 

Hmmmm, later on Zevran may point out to the PC that there are poisons he can ingest that are perfectly harmless to him but fatal to her. Somehow I get the feeling he never actually planned on killing her.  Though I'm not a fan of fanfiction (sorry), that's an interesting angle as well.

Modifié par ejoslin, 04 janvier 2010 - 11:37 .

[Antikristine]

ejoslin wrote...

Is it any wonder he wanted to die?  I think beginning again was something that had never even occurred to him.  When you look at his original attack, though, it was designed to fail.  He didn't use surprise, cunning, or anything -- he even warned the PC before the attack happened.  When he told the PC that had he taken Taliesen with him, either the PC or he would have died, he's right. He may have succeeded in killing her because it most certainly would not have been a straight out fight.

A humorous party dialog is if you have Zevran and Loghain in your party.  Zevran reports to him that the crows failed in their mission to kill the Gray Warden.  Loghain thanks him for informing him.  It's funnier when you hear it though!

I'm not really certain what you're referring to when you say he warns the PC. Do you mean the totally non-immersive attack line all game enemies shout when attacking?

Anyway, I agree with your argument, and that the attack was meant to fail. Come on, he's a rogue and doesn't use stealth? On the other hand, I died on my very first encounter with the guy, he does bring with him a lot of manpower.

[Creature 1]

He sets up an ambush where the point person's job is to yell, "Help, we were attacked!", which is guaranteed to have any group of adventurers coming to investigate have blade in hand.



Proper ambush: Hide behind trees. Wait for party. Shoot from cover.

[frostajulie]

I love fanfiction so email me or post a link when its ready. And for all the fanficton.net has standards they are not enforced there is a ton of smut fic on there. Some of it is very well written... but you do have to wade through a lot of crap. I generally look for the longer ones rated m with the most reviews.

[Creature 1]

ejoslin wrote...
Though I'm not a fan of fanfiction (sorry)

I'm not either, no offense taken. 

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

ejoslin wrote...

Youtube ruins the fun for everyone! *grin* That banter was worth Alistair hating my PC.

I spared Loghain once, and that bit of banter was the only part that was worth it. I'll not spare him again, I'll just watch everyone's you tube to see it again.

but god, that was so funny, the bland, what the hell tone from Zevran. "I'm terribly broken up about it" or something.

Of course, Zev is always in my party even when i have a rogue, and especially with Wynne. His obsession over her mature, magical bosoms never fails to have me in tears.

[ejoslin]

Antikristine wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Is it any wonder he wanted to die?  I think beginning again was something that had never even occurred to him.  When you look at his original attack, though, it was designed to fail.  He didn't use surprise, cunning, or anything -- he even warned the PC before the attack happened.  When he told the PC that had he taken Taliesen with him, either the PC or he would have died, he's right. He may have succeeded in killing her because it most certainly would not have been a straight out fight.

A humorous party dialog is if you have Zevran and Loghain in your party.  Zevran reports to him that the crows failed in their mission to kill the Gray Warden.  Loghain thanks him for informing him.  It's funnier when you hear it though!

I'm not really certain what you're referring to when you say he warns the PC. Do you mean the totally non-immersive attack line all game enemies shout when attacking?

Anyway, I agree with your argument, and that the attack was meant to fail. Come on, he's a rogue and doesn't use stealth? On the other hand, I died on my very first encounter with the guy, he does bring with him a lot of manpower.

Hahaha, I mean he gets the party to run up with weapons ready and then yells, THE GRAY WARDEN DIES before attacking.  

Edit: Yeh, what Creature 1 said before I.

Modifié par ejoslin, 05 janvier 2010 - 12:50 .

[twintalons]

Yeah, I was in a romance with him on my first play and he stayed and fought with us in that scene, BUT I was a bit shocked to find out when I reloaded that game later and got that scene by accident and played it through anyway with just random dialogue choices that he left us there to fend for ourselves!!
It appears that a slightly different dialogue choice affects whether he helps you fight or not (for a given level of approval, sorry I can't remember what I was at but it WAS romance of some sort)
I wasn't particularly impressed with his 'reason' for leaving us - something like 'you can take care of yourself so I wasn't worried' Geeee didn't Marjolaine, use the same excuse for sending assasins after Leliana! 

Tibbi_Sunshine wrote...

He never betrayed me, but the first run-through I was very surprised that he wouldn't stay and fight, especially since he was somewhere above Interested, at least I think, and it left me down a man.

[Sabriana]

First off, thanks for the compliments



Second, I also believe that Zevran never intended to come out alive. I remember walking up to the scene and seeing him standing there, fully visible, in armor and thinking: "What? That's a rogue assassin? Where's the poison, the backstab, the stealth?"

In this play-through with my human noble, he never uses any rogue or assassin tricks at all, just straight fighting. Might have been a glitch, but if it was, I rather like that particular glitch.



As for the betrayal, at that point in the game his approval rating hovers between 95 and 100, so he never betrays my PC. I also want to state (somewhat shame-facedly) that I am in the habit of picking the "of course I need to be dead" PC line. I admit it's because I never tire of hearing "And I am not about to let that happen." response.



If he stays out of the fight (no matter how high the approval is) because of certain dialogue choices, we'll have to wait for Ejoslin to clear that up. She'll know

[ejoslin]

Sabriana wrote...

First off, thanks for the compliments

Second, I also believe that Zevran never intended to come out alive. I remember walking up to the scene and seeing him standing there, fully visible, in armor and thinking: "What? That's a rogue assassin? Where's the poison, the backstab, the stealth?"
In this play-through with my human noble, he never uses any rogue or assassin tricks at all, just straight fighting. Might have been a glitch, but if it was, I rather like that particular glitch.

As for the betrayal, at that point in the game his approval rating hovers between 95 and 100, so he never betrays my PC. I also want to state (somewhat shame-facedly) that I am in the habit of picking the "of course I need to be dead" PC line. I admit it's because I never tire of hearing "And I am not about to let that happen." response.

If he stays out of the fight (no matter how high the approval is) because of certain dialogue choices, we'll have to wait for Ejoslin to clear that up. She'll know

No, it's an approval thing.  I've tried all dialog choices and the only time he's ever left is when the approval was medium (my first play through).

Edit: Even if you say that you'll kill them all, then, Zevran tells you, "There's no need.  I'm not here to betray you," then still fights with you if your approval is high.

Second edit: I actually liked Zevran's reason for ducking out of the fight.  He said something like, I didn't leave you to die, I left him to die."  If his approval isn't that high, doesn't that make sense that he would do that?  I bought it, for sure.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 06 janvier 2010 - 02:14 .

[Sabriana]

Medium as in neutral, or medium as in interested? I'm curious, because I found that it was already pretty hard to turn him 'off' so to speak, once he hits the higher levels of the 'interested' rating.

[ejoslin]

Sabriana wrote...

Medium as in neutral, or medium as in interested? I'm curious, because I found that it was already pretty hard to turn him 'off' so to speak, once he hits the higher levels of the 'interested' rating.

You don't have to have him interested.  He's VERY easy to turn off, as well -- just tell him you're not interested and he stops hitting on you.  But he has to be warm to not turn on you I'm fairly sure, even if just a low warm.  Now, he won't get to friendly before this battle, but I think it most likely is 71 where he fights with you if you're not romancing him.

[Sabriana]

Lol, no I don't mean turning the romance off, I mean turning him off as in doing something that makes him angry to the point of getting a huge disapproval hit.

I think the biggest hit my PC took when the romance was in full bloom was when she refused the earring first time around.

[Creature 1]

ejoslin wrote...
Second edit: I actually liked Zevran's reason for ducking out of the fight.  He said something like, I didn't leave you to die, I left him to die."  If his approval isn't that high, doesn't that make sense that he would do that?  I bought it, for sure.  

I had that happen to my female mage.  She confronted him in camp and said, "You left me to face him alone!"  He says, "No, I left him to face you alone."  I forgave him.  Of course. 

Next run through it was "You should have stayed in Antiva." 

[ejoslin]

Sabriana wrote...

Lol, no I don't mean turning the romance off, I mean turning him off as in doing something that makes him angry to the point of getting a huge disapproval hit.
I think the biggest hit my PC took when the romance was in full bloom was when she refused the earring first time around.

It's a five point hit as long as you're clear that you thought it was a token of affection and that's the only way you want it.  It's a much bigger hit if you just reject it.  I don't think he offers it a second time if you just tell him you don't want it.  Though I may be wrong about that.  I'm not sure what the second offer trigger is, though I know it's from the dialog where he offers it the first time.

[Sabriana]

He does offer it again if the PC rejects it outright. But you have to pick the "I'm no wiser than you in that area." response.

[ejoslin]

Ah, you are absolutely correct, thank you. Also if you ask him if it would be better for him if you two break up he'll offer it again. Gah, such a sweet moment there, though.