474 réponses à ce sujet

[Diurdi]

Control would be the ultimate paragon ending if Shepard steered the reapers right into the sun after gaining control. This way he'd have spared those who died in destruction.

Synthesis is the worst ending imaginable.

[Seival]

Steelcan wrote...

Seival wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

What I do not get is why Seival is so devoted to this idea of the last conversation being mental. What does this fact change? It does not make the scene make any more sense, it is just as poorly written as before. It makes things worse in fact, since not only would we still have ****ty writing, we would also now have poor editing and cinematic design.

Mental conversation makes the scene logical, and also keeps it symbolical enough. While real-life nature of the scene would make it symbolical-only...

...But no matter which variant was actually conceived by the authors - the scene is well-written. Mental conversation is just more logical and so more preferable.

. A mental conversation would be logical, but it doesn't seem to me that that is what happened.

Why do you think so?

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Seival wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Seival wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

What I do not get is why Seival is so devoted to this idea of the last conversation being mental. What does this fact change? It does not make the scene make any more sense, it is just as poorly written as before. It makes things worse in fact, since not only would we still have ****ty writing, we would also now have poor editing and cinematic design.

Mental conversation makes the scene logical, and also keeps it symbolical enough. While real-life nature of the scene would make it symbolical-only...

...But no matter which variant was actually conceived by the authors - the scene is well-written. Mental conversation is just more logical and so more preferable.

. A mental conversation would be logical, but it doesn't seem to me that that is what happened.

Why do you think so?

Because of the way the scene is freaking edited! How many times does this have to be repeated?

[Seival]

Lizardviking wrote...

Seival wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Seival wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

What I do not get is why Seival is so devoted to this idea of the last conversation being mental. What does this fact change? It does not make the scene make any more sense, it is just as poorly written as before. It makes things worse in fact, since not only would we still have ****ty writing, we would also now have poor editing and cinematic design.

Mental conversation makes the scene logical, and also keeps it symbolical enough. While real-life nature of the scene would make it symbolical-only...

...But no matter which variant was actually conceived by the authors - the scene is well-written. Mental conversation is just more logical and so more preferable.

. A mental conversation would be logical, but it doesn't seem to me that that is what happened.

Why do you think so?

Because of the way the scene is freaking edited! How many times does this have to be repeated?

The scene is edited very good. It looks epic. It feels shocking and stunning, just like the light looks after years of wandering in the dark. The feeling of truth, and final moments before the new era begins. The scene summarize what the whole story is about...

...I had the similar feeling in the end of only one other game - Planescape: Torment.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Seival wrote...
The scene is edited very good. It looks epic. It feels shocking and stunning, just like the light looks after years of wandering in the dark. The feeling of truth, and final moments before the new era begins. The scene summarize what the whole story is about...

...I had the similar feeling in the end of only one other game - Planescape: Torment.

What are you talking about?

I am talking about the fact that Bioware sends Shepard on an elevator ride to somewhere. A somewhere that we never get to see or hear about according to your theory. An act that serves no other reason other than to confuse us if we followed your logic.

Remember, the elevator activates while the camara is still showing reality. The white-out happens afterwards.

[Seival]

Lizardviking wrote...

Seival wrote...
The scene is edited very good. It looks epic. It feels shocking and stunning, just like the light looks after years of wandering in the dark. The feeling of truth, and final moments before the new era begins. The scene summarize what the whole story is about...

...I had the similar feeling in the end of only one other game - Planescape: Torment.

What are you talking about?

I am talking about the fact that Bioware sends Shepard on an elevator ride to somewhere. A somewhere that we never get to see or hear about according to your theory. An act that serves no other reason other than to confuse us if we followed your logic.

Remember, the elevator activates while the camara is still showing reality. The white-out happens afterwards.

Is that your only concern about the ending scene? I have a suggestion. Forget about logic for a moment, and try to sense the meaning of that part of the scene...

...Ascension. Does this word comes to your mind? That could be replaced with just a "flash of light" of course. But I think that showing actual symbolical ascension looks more beautiful.

Here is an analogy from another good sci-fi game:
http://www.youtube.c...J98o1IhT8#t=21s
Symbolical. Dream-like. Epic. It looks more spectacular compared to "magic elevator" just because this scene is full-scale cinematic, not an in-game scripted scene.

[The Night Mammoth]

Seival wrote...
Forget about logic for a moment

Ahaha. 

I think you'll need to forget about it for more than just a moment. 

Oh, and as well as that, maybe we should forget morality, ethics, and basic human reason too, since none of those has any use here. 

[Steelcan]

Seival wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Seival wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

What I do not get is why Seival is so devoted to this idea of the last conversation being mental. What does this fact change? It does not make the scene make any more sense, it is just as poorly written as before. It makes things worse in fact, since not only would we still have ****ty writing, we would also now have poor editing and cinematic design.

Mental conversation makes the scene logical, and also keeps it symbolical enough. While real-life nature of the scene would make it symbolical-only...

...But no matter which variant was actually conceived by the authors - the scene is well-written. Mental conversation is just more logical and so more preferable.

. A mental conversation would be logical, but it doesn't seem to me that that is what happened.

Why do you think so?

Glad you asked.

1.  Physical interaction with all three endings is required for any of them to be initiated, gunfire, connecting an electrical current, and jumping off a ledge respectively
2.  There have been explanations from BioWare employees regarding certain plot holes in the ending chamber, ie the seeming lack of an atmosphere
3.  Taking too long to decide results in a mission failure, if it was mental you should have all the time in the world
4.  there is no rum or Miranda, clearly not one of Shepard's dreams.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Seival wrote...
Is that your only concern about the ending scene? I have a suggestion. Forget about logic for a moment, and try to sense the meaning of that part of the scene...

...Ascension. Does this word comes to your mind? That could be replaced with just a "flash of light" of course. But I think that showing actual symbolical ascension looks more beautiful.

Here is an analogy from another good sci-fi game:
http://www.youtube.c...J98o1IhT8#t=21s
Symbolical. Dream-like. Epic. It looks more spectacular compared to "magic elevator" just because this scene is full-scale cinematic, not an in-game scripted scene.

You know even if the symbolism was intentional, I doubt that btw, that doesn't automatically make it good.

[spirosz]

So Mac had this:



Since the beginning of ME1?

Modifié par spirosz, 06 décembre 2012 - 12:06 .

[Seival]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Seival wrote...
Forget about logic for a moment

Ahaha. 

I think you'll need to forget about it for more than just a moment. 

Oh, and as well as that, maybe we should forget morality, ethics, and basic human reason too, since none of those has any use here. 

There are no universal morality and ethics rules. Catalyst morality and ethics can be described in two sentences: "Life is much more important than lives.", and "Protect life at any cost, even if the cost will be millions of lives.". Catalyst is reasonable and wise, like Leviathans. If we will use D&D definitions, then we will see that:
 - The Leviathans are True Neutral.
 - The Catalyst is Lawful Neutral.

Catalyst logic makes sense. Catalyst actions make sense. Leviathans themselves stated that creting the Catalyst was not a mistake even through most of them were harvested, and they consider Catalyst as the enemy.

...Black and white are not the only existing colors, you know?

Modifié par Seival, 06 décembre 2012 - 11:04 .

[Seival]

Steelcan wrote...

Seival wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Seival wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

What I do not get is why Seival is so devoted to this idea of the last conversation being mental. What does this fact change? It does not make the scene make any more sense, it is just as poorly written as before. It makes things worse in fact, since not only would we still have ****ty writing, we would also now have poor editing and cinematic design.

Mental conversation makes the scene logical, and also keeps it symbolical enough. While real-life nature of the scene would make it symbolical-only...

...But no matter which variant was actually conceived by the authors - the scene is well-written. Mental conversation is just more logical and so more preferable.

. A mental conversation would be logical, but it doesn't seem to me that that is what happened.

Why do you think so?

Glad you asked.

1.  Physical interaction with all three endings is required for any of them to be initiated, gunfire, connecting an electrical current, and jumping off a ledge respectively
2.  There have been explanations from BioWare employees regarding certain plot holes in the ending chamber, ie the seeming lack of an atmosphere
3.  Taking too long to decide results in a mission failure, if it was mental you should have all the time in the world
4.  there is no rum or Miranda, clearly not one of Shepard's dreams.

(1) That "physical interaction" can be just a mental representation of making a choice.
(2) They still didn't confirm directly if the conversation was mental or not.
(3) Similar mental conversation with the Leviathans wasn't too long, but long enough for mech's systems to start failing, and Shepard's squad starting to get nervous while fighting Reaper ground forces.

Modifié par Seival, 06 décembre 2012 - 11:19 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Seival wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Seival wrote...
The scene is edited very good. It looks epic. It feels shocking and stunning, just like the light looks after years of wandering in the dark. The feeling of truth, and final moments before the new era begins. The scene summarize what the whole story is about...

...I had the similar feeling in the end of only one other game - Planescape: Torment.

What are you talking about?

I am talking about the fact that Bioware sends Shepard on an elevator ride to somewhere. A somewhere that we never get to see or hear about according to your theory. An act that serves no other reason other than to confuse us if we followed your logic.

Remember, the elevator activates while the camara is still showing reality. The white-out happens afterwards.

Is that your only concern about the ending scene? I have a suggestion. Forget about logic for a moment, and try to sense the meaning of that part of the scene...

...Ascension. Does this word comes to your mind? That could be replaced with just a "flash of light" of course. But I think that showing actual symbolical ascension looks more beautiful.

Here is an analogy from another good sci-fi game:
http://www.youtube.c...J98o1IhT8#t=21s
Symbolical. Dream-like. Epic. It looks more spectacular compared to "magic elevator" just because this scene is full-scale cinematic, not an in-game scripted scene.

Yeah. That is my problem with the scene if I followed your logic.

And you are dodging the issue. If you bothered to watch the scene you would see that the elevator activates, it is real and not a dream. If the elevator ride was meant to be a dream, then the cinematic designers ****ed up pretty good.

Modifié par Lizardviking, 06 décembre 2012 - 12:50 .

[Steelcan]

[quote]Seival wrote...

[quote]Steelcan wrote...


(1) That "physical interaction" can be just a mental representation of making a choice.
(2) They still didn't confirm directly if the conversation was mental or not.
(3) Similar mental conversation with the Leviathans wasn't too long, but long enough for mech's systems to start failing, and Shepard's squad starting to get nervous while fighting Reaper ground forces.
[/quote]. 

1.  Then how does that trigger an ending?  You think 'Control' hard enough and it happens?

2.  Yes but they cover certain issues with an actual conversation, indicating that they not end the conversation to be seen as physical not mental

3.  Your point?

[The Night Mammoth]

Seival wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Seival wrote...
Forget about logic for a moment

Ahaha. 

I think you'll need to forget about it for more than just a moment. 

Oh, and as well as that, maybe we should forget morality, ethics, and basic human reason too, since none of those has any use here. 

There are no universal morality and ethics rules. Catalyst morality and ethics can be described in two sentences: "Life is much more important than lives.", and "Protect life at any cost, even if the cost will be millions of lives.". Catalyst is reasonable and wise, like Leviathans. If we will use D&D definitions, then we will see that:
 - The Leviathans are True Neutral.
 - The Catalyst is Lawful Neutral.

The Catalyst does not have a moral or ethical code. It's a machine, its programming dictates what it does, and that programming dictated that it stop synthetics from wiping out all life. How it came from that, to killing all sapient life in the galaxy in an eternal cycle of slaughter, making them into Reapers as a means of preservation, is a complete unknown, and frankly, thinking about it gives me a damn headache.  

Even so, it's hardly reasonable and wise. 

You know since it kills, tortures and manipulates billions without mercy. Not exactly the hallmarks of reason or wisdom. 

Catalyst logic makes sense. Catalyst actions make sense. Leviathans themselves stated that creting the Catalyst was not a mistake even through most of them were harvested, and they consider Catalyst as the enemy.

Neither its logic or its actions make sense. 

Again, how it went from being programmed to solve the conflict between organics and synthetics, to slaughtering quitillions of sapients of billions years and making Reapers, is a complete mystery. 

...Black and white are not the only existing colors, you know?

Never said they were, or implied that, but when some glowing kid that controls the enemy and is obviously manipulating you appears ten seconds to midnight and tells you of this problem no one except it has ever head of, and then asks you to change the entire galaxy based on ten minutes of dialogue which doesn't make any sense, I think it's time to take a step back. 

[Dr_Extrem]

well .. why should i trust the entity, that tried to grill me several minutes ago? ..

i mean .. if the starchild controls the reapers, it ordered harbinger to shoot at me and now the little bugger plays nice? ... alarm bells start ringing in my head.

[Seival]

Steelcan wrote...

Seival wrote...

(1) That "physical interaction" can be just a mental representation of making a choice.
(2) They still didn't confirm directly if the conversation was mental or not.
(3) Similar mental conversation with the Leviathans wasn't too long, but long enough for mech's systems to start failing, and Shepard's squad starting to get nervous while fighting Reaper ground forces.

. 

1.  Then how does that trigger an ending?  You think 'Control' hard enough and it happens?

2.  Yes but they cover certain issues with an actual conversation, indicating that they not end the conversation to be seen as physical not mental

3.  Your point?

(1) Yes. By touching Control rods, for example, you "tell" Catalyst: "Harvest me, and trigger Control". This action is just a mental representation of your choice.

(2) So, we have pat situation here.

(3) My point is that one-hour-long mental conversation is not one-second-long in real life. Mental conversation is definitely faster than real one, but not that faster. Shepard and Catalyst didn't have all time in the world. They still have to hurry.

Modifié par Seival, 06 décembre 2012 - 08:03 .

[Steelcan]

Seival wrote...


(1) Yes. By touching Control rods, for example, you "tell" Catalyst: "Harvest me, and trigger Control". This action is just a mental representation of your choice.

(2) So, we have pat situation here.

(3) My point is that one-hour-long mental conversation is not one-second-long in real life. Mental conversation is definitely faster than real one, but not that faster. Shepard and Catalyst didn't have all time in the world. They still have to hurry.

1. How does he accomplish that?

3.  A mental conversation can last as long or as short as you want.  You have all the time in the world in your own mind.

[The Night Mammoth]

Seival wrote...

(3) My point is that one-hour-long mental conversation is not one-second-long in real life. Mental conversation is definitely faster than real one, but not that faster. Shepard and Catalyst didn't have all time in the world. They still have to hurry.

Why?

[Seival]

Steelcan wrote...

Seival wrote...


(1) Yes. By touching Control rods, for example, you "tell" Catalyst: "Harvest me, and trigger Control". This action is just a mental representation of your choice.

(2) So, we have pat situation here.

(3) My point is that one-hour-long mental conversation is not one-second-long in real life. Mental conversation is definitely faster than real one, but not that faster. Shepard and Catalyst didn't have all time in the world. They still have to hurry.

1. How does he accomplish that?

3.  A mental conversation can last as long or as short as you want.  You have all the time in the world in your own mind.

(1) Remeber how Leviathan "summoned" laboratory table into the mental conversation with Shepard? Then it approached it and looked into the microscope. That was a mental representation of Leviathan studying Shepard. Leviathan conversation was made very similar to conversation with the Catalyst, and I think devs made that intentionally.

(3) We can't prove that. But we can see that Shepard's mech was in very bad condition just after the conversation with the Leviathan was over. But the mech was quite ok before the conversation. Those malfunctions could happen because of too high pressure and required considerable amount of time to become almost critical. I suppose that if conversation with the Leviathan was 5-minutes-long, then it was about 1 minute in real life, or even more.

Modifié par Seival, 06 décembre 2012 - 08:52 .

[Seival]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Seival wrote...
Is that your only concern about the ending scene? I have a suggestion. Forget about logic for a moment, and try to sense the meaning of that part of the scene...

...Ascension. Does this word comes to your mind? That could be replaced with just a "flash of light" of course. But I think that showing actual symbolical ascension looks more beautiful.

Here is an analogy from another good sci-fi game:
http://www.youtube.c...J98o1IhT8#t=21s
Symbolical. Dream-like. Epic. It looks more spectacular compared to "magic elevator" just because this scene is full-scale cinematic, not an in-game scripted scene.

You know even if the symbolism was intentional, I doubt that btw, that doesn't automatically make it good.

ME3 ending is good because of its ideas, and because of philosophical questions it raises. Symbolism just makes the ending more epic. Mental conversation fits that concept just perfectly.

[The Night Mammoth]

Seival wrote...

ME3 ending is good because of its ideas, and because of philosophical questions it raises.

Yeah, murder your friends because equality is impossible, become an all-powerful dictator, or brain-wash the galaxy.

Yeah, Symbolism just makes the ending more epic. Mental conversation fits that concept just perfectly.

Symbolism? What? 

[Applepie_Svk]

Seival wrote...


ME3 ending is good because of its ideas, and because of philosophical questions it raises. Symbolism just makes the ending more epic. Mental conversation fits that concept just perfectly.

/facepalm

The Night Mammoth wrote...


Yeah, murder your friends because equality is impossible, become an all-powerful dictator, or brain-wash the galaxy.

Symbolism? What? 

Yep, that´s summ up my feelings 

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 06 décembre 2012 - 10:59 .

[Seival]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Seival wrote...

ME3 ending is good because of its ideas, and because of philosophical questions it raises.

Yeah, murder your friends because equality is impossible, become an all-powerful dictator, or brain-wash the galaxy.

Yeah, Symbolism just makes the ending more epic. Mental conversation fits that concept just perfectly.

Symbolism? What? 

Control and Synthesis are in conflict with your own ethics standards? Choose Destroy then. But don't expect that everyone have the same ethics standards as you.

I consider Control and Synthesis as the most ethical choices, and do not consider them as "becoming a dictator" or "brainwashing". At the same time Destroy and Refusal choices are alien to me, because I can't roleplay a betrayer.

Modifié par Seival, 07 décembre 2012 - 11:15 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Seival wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Seival wrote...

ME3 ending is good because of its ideas, and because of philosophical questions it raises.

Yeah, murder your friends because equality is impossible, become an all-powerful dictator, or brain-wash the galaxy.

Yeah, Symbolism just makes the ending more epic. Mental conversation fits that concept just perfectly.

Symbolism? What? 

Control and Synthesis are in conflict with your own ethics standards? Choose Destroy then. But don't expect that everyone have the same ethics standards as you.

I'd expect most humans on this planet to be against murdering your allies because the enemy tells you some bullsh*t about you never being able to get along with them ten seconds before you're about to kill him, taking control of a robot army to police the galaxy thus becoming space Idi Amin, or brainwashing the entire galaxy into the enemy's version of a utopia and undermining galactic society completely. 

If you think any of that is morally acceptable, then you have a pretty f*cked up moral code, or you're just stupid. Take your pick. 

I consider Control and Synthesis as the most ethical choices, and do not consider them as "becoming a dictator" or "brainwashing". At the same time Destroy and Refusal choices are alien to me, because I can't roleplay a betrayer.

Why not? That's what happens. You become a dictator, enforcing your will on everyone because the Reapers are all-powerful, or you brainwash everyone into becoming best-friends. Destroy isn't any better.